( whoso readeth, let him understand: )

[GaryA]

You identify Matthew 24:21 as the Great Tribulation

Please discuss how the direct instruction given by Jesus Christ Below In Urgency, Pertains To A Tribulation You Claim Started In 70AD, And Is Continuing Into The Future, 1950+ Years?

1.) Matthew 24:15 (When Ye Shall See)
2.) Matthew 24:16 (Then Let Them Which Be In Judea Flee)
3.) Matthew 24:17-20 (Urgency, Immediate)
4.) Matthew 24:21 (For Then Shall Be Great Tribulation)

Matthew 24:15-23KJV
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

The 'urgency' was simply at the very beginning of it (not throughout the whole thing).

 

[Truth7t7]

The 'urgency' was simply at the very beginning of it (not throughout the whole thing).

Gary how do you explain the severity of the tribulation identified below?

(No, Nor Ever Shall Be)?

Do you suggest that this term represents a ongoing 1950+ years?

A succession of (No, Nor Ever Shall Be) for 1950+ years?

Matthew 24:21KJV
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

 

[GaryA]

The phrase 'no, nor ever shall be' implies "after it" not "during it"...

Look at history and tell me you don't think the past 1950 years - collectively - has been the greatest 'tribulation' the world has ever seen.

 

[Truth7t7]

The phrase 'no, nor ever shall be' implies "after it" not "during it"...

Look at history and tell me you don't think the past 1950 years - collectively - has been the greatest 'tribulation' the world has ever seen.

Who brought up the statement (No, Nor Ever Shall Be) in the discussion?

Who are you in discussion with?

Are you with respect addressing the speaker of the statement, or giving disregard as if he/she doesn't exist?

 

[GaryA]

Who brought up the statement (No, Nor Ever Shall Be) in the discussion?

Who are you in discussion with?

Are you with respect addressing the speaker of the statement, or giving disregard as if he/she doesn't exist?

At this point - I am addressing - with a severe lack of respect - an individual with an attitude problem - who thinks too highly of himself - who thinks there is some mandate on quoting [even the post directly before] - "or, great disrespect and disregard has been shown to him" - who demands "respect" and "regard" in the form of having his post quoted "properly" every single time - "or else" - he needs to coerce them to properly "bow before him" and acknowledge "his highness" - who are you, the pope?



Grow up.

Get off your high horse and join those "mere mortals" who are simply trying to have a discussion.

 

[Truth7t7]

At this point - I am addressing - with a severe lack of respect - an individual with an attitude problem - who thinks too highly of himself - who thinks there is some mandate on quoting [even the post directly before] - "or, great disrespect and disregard has been shown to him" - who demands "respect" and "regard" in the form of having his post quoted "properly" every single time - "or else" - he needs to coerce them to properly "bow before him" and acknowledge "his highness" - who are you, the pope?



Grow up.

Get off your high horse and join those "mere mortals" who are simply trying to have a discussion.

The True GaryA: Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage?

Jesus Christ Is Lord

 

[GaryA]

Jesus Christ Is Lord

Amen!

 

[Yahshua]

Thanks For The Detailed Response On Your Belief

Do you claim Luke 21:25-28 & Matthew 24:29-30 Below Are Different Events?

Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

I believe they are both summaries of the same series of events. Starting from the days of tribulation we can put them together...:

1) Those days of tribulation...
2) (immediately after those days of tribulation) astronomical signs and earthly signs (Luke 21:25; Matt 24:29)...
3) Then, Fearful things coming upon the earth and Powers of heaven shaken (Luke 21:26; Matt 24:29)...
4) Then, the Son of Man coming on the clouds (Luke 21:27; Matt 24:30)

 

[Truth7t7]

I believe they are both summaries of the same series of events. Starting from the days of tribulation we can put them together...:

1) Those days of tribulation...
2) (immediately after those days of tribulation) astronomical signs and earthly signs (Luke 21:25; Matt 24:29)...
3) Then, Fearful things coming upon the earth and Powers of heaven shaken (Luke 21:26; Matt 24:29)...
4) Then, the Son of Man coming on the clouds (Luke 21:27; Matt 24:30)

I fully agree, same astronomical signs, same heavens shaking, same Jesus in the clouds.

However many posting on this thread believe that Luke 21 is a different time frame than Matthew 24, I disagree.

 

[Truth7t7]

I believe they are both summaries of the same series of events. Starting from the days of tribulation we can put them together...:

1) Those days of tribulation...
2) (immediately after those days of tribulation) astronomical signs and earthly signs (Luke 21:25; Matt 24:29)...
3) Then, Fearful things coming upon the earth and Powers of heaven shaken (Luke 21:26; Matt 24:29)...
4) Then, the Son of Man coming on the clouds (Luke 21:27; Matt 24:30)

The two verse that destroy the long continuous tribulation taught in (Historicism)

Matthew 24:33-34 puts the icing on the cake, when the signs are seen, (Know That It Is Near) Jesus goes so far as to put a time frame (Generation) which is 40 years

Historicism disregards this simple teaching, and claims the signs have and are being seen, with total Disregard to (Know That It Is Near, Even At The Doors)

And this dosent translate into 1950+ years and waiting for the second coming, I ain't buying the teaching.

Matthew 24:33-34KJV
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

 

[garee]

The two verse that destroy the long continuous tribulation taught in (Historicism)

Matthew 24:33-34 puts the icing on the cake, when the signs are seen, (Know That It Is Near) Jesus goes so far as to put a time frame (Generation) which is 40 years

Historicism disregards this simple teaching, and claims the signs have and are being seen, with total Disregard to (Know That It Is Near, Even At The Doors)

And this dosent translate into 1950+ years and waiting for the second coming, I ain't buying the teaching.

Matthew 24:33-34KJV
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

(Generation) which is 40 years it is not the use . He uses the golden measure of faith. The unseen witness of God Not the witness of men


He is using the two generations .the generation of faith the generation of Christ and the faithless generation of man cal the evil generation (no faith . they look to signs and wonders. But no sign to wonder after was given. Simply history repeating itself a sign of the times . War and rumors, earthquakes, people marrying just as in the days of Noah .Then on the last day he comes as a thief in the night .It is finished.

Matthew 12:39But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

Jesus fulfilled that sign .No more wondering.

The froward generation..(out of sight out of mind No God in their hearts.

Deuteronomy 32:20And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

 

[Dino246]

(Generation) which is 40 years it is not the use . He uses the golden measure of faith. The unseen witness of God Not the witness of men

And your evidence for this conclusion is... what, exactly?

He is using the two generations .the generation of faith the generation of Christ and the faithless generation of man cal the evil generation (no faith . they look to signs and wonders.

Wrong; Jesus only spoke of one generation in Matthew 24:34, and He made no mention of them being faithless. Your interpretation is without any biblical support.

 

[Kolistus]

The verses in row 15 were fulfilled ~70 A.D.

What about the rest of Matthew 24? Such as Matthew 24:30-31?

 

[Yahshua]

The two verse that destroy the long continuous tribulation taught in (Historicism)

Matthew 24:33-34 puts the icing on the cake, when the signs are seen, (Know That It Is Near) Jesus goes so far as to put a time frame (Generation) which is 40 years

Historicism disregards this simple teaching, and claims the signs have and are being seen, with total Disregard to (Know That It Is Near, Even At The Doors)

And this dosent translate into 1950+ years and waiting for the second coming, I ain't buying the teaching.

Matthew 24:33-34KJV
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Well, I'm not sure that these verses destroy the historicist view of the time of a long tribulation through history. I think they support it. Notice that verse 33 says "when you shall see ALL these things..."

Q: All [what] things?
A: All the things the Messiah mentioned previously.

The Messiah didn't just mention the time of great tribulation in the Olivet Discourse. He also mentioned, His apostles' persecution, signs in the heavens, signs on the earth, the destruction of the temple, famines, diseases, wars... He said when all these things are seen (or witnessed) know that "it" is near, right at the doors.

Q: What is "it" that the Messiah is referring to as being near?
A: Well if we continue with the belief that Matthew 24 and Luke 21 are referring to the same series of events, Luke 21:31-32 says...


Luke 21:31-32
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled

So the Messiah is saying that:

- His apostles' persecution
- false gospel spreading
- the temple's destruction
- a time of great suffering beginning and then ending
- astronomical signs and earthly upheaval, immediately after that

...ALL have to happen first...and then when all these things have happened, THEN we can be sure that the kingdom of God (i.e. His coming) is near, "right at the doors".

---

If we know that it's His apostles that specifically go through persecution is the very beginning of the Messiah's timeline...


Matthew 24:9
Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.


...which happened in the 1st century, exactly as predicted...


...but then His timeline ends with His future return, which we know hasn't happened yet...


Then doesn't that mean His timeline must have spanned all of this time? The "apostles' persecution" and "His return" are bookends of His prophecy.

 

[Truth7t7]

Well, I'm not sure that these verses destroy the historicist view of the time of a long tribulation through history. I think they support it. Notice that verse 33 says "when you shall see ALL these things..."

Q: All [what] things?
A: All the things the Messiah mentioned previously.

The Messiah didn't just mention the time of great tribulation in the Olivet Discourse. He also mentioned, His apostles' persecution, signs in the heavens, signs on the earth, the destruction of the temple, famines, diseases, wars... He said when all these things are seen (or witnessed) know that "it" is near, right at the doors.

Q: What is "it" that the Messiah is referring to as being near?
A: Well if we continue with the belief that Matthew 24 and Luke 21 are referring to the same series of events, Luke 21:31-32 says...


Luke 21:31-32
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled

So the Messiah is saying that:

- His apostles' persecution
- false gospel spreading
- the temple's destruction
- a time of great suffering beginning and then ending
- astronomical signs and earthly upheaval, immediately after that

...ALL have to happen first...and then when all these things have happened, THEN we can be sure that the kingdom of God (i.e. His coming) is near, "right at the doors".

---

If we know that it's His apostles that specifically go through persecution is the very beginning of the Messiah's timeline...


Matthew 24:9
Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.


...which happened in the 1st century, exactly as predicted...


...but then His timeline ends with His future return, which we know hasn't happened yet...


Then doesn't that mean His timeline must have spanned all of this time? The "apostles' persecution" and "His return" are bookends of His prophecy.

Thanks for the response

You quote (When You Shall See All These Things) building your complete argument on the word All?

You give (Complete Disregard) to the context of scripture, in a predetermined bias to keep the (Historicist) 1950+ year tribulation alive.

The timeline given below is short, (Season/Generation) not 1950+ years as (Historicism) falsely teaches.

1.) Verse 32 speaks directly of a (Season) summer is nigh.

2.) Verse 33 speaks of the (Generation) in verse 34 that will see all these things, this (Generation) will be at the very doors of the second coming

3.) Verse 34 The (Generation/40 Years) that witnesses the events will not pass, until all is fulfilled.

Matthew 24:32-34KJV
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

 

[Yahshua]

Thanks for the response

You quote (When You Shall See All These Things) building your complete argument on the word All?

You give (Complete Disregard) to the context of scripture, in a predetermined bias to keep the (Historicist) 1950+ year tribulation alive.

The timeline given below is short, (Season/Generation) not 1950+ years as (Historicism) falsely teaches.

1.) Verse 32 speaks directly of a (Season) summer is nigh.

2.) Verse 33 speaks of the (Generation) in verse 34 that will see all these things, this (Generation) will be at the very doors of the second coming

3.) Verse 34 The (Generation/40 Years) that witnesses the events will not pass, until all is fulfilled.

Matthew 24:32-34KJV
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Well, all means all, not just what we want to focus on. And Historicism is not my predetermined bias. Truth be told I was a futurist for decades and decades until I began studying more than just Matthew 24 while relying solely on preachers and teachers telling me that it was always "in the future". Luke 21, Ezekiel 33-39, Daniel 11-12, Revelation 5-14, etc, along with recorded history are all critical witnesses that forced me to reconsider what I was taught.

----

If we specifically focus on context, the Messiah was speaking to His apostles when He told them "this generation that sees these events will not pass away until all is fulfilled." But before He said that, He also told them that they'd be killed BEFORE even the temple was destroyed...so the apostles definitely wouldn't have seen all the events come to pass (as I know you'll agree)...but - and this is important - the murder of the apostles was one of the events the Messiah mentioned.


Q: If His apostles were murdered in the 1st century, how can *ANY* generation after that SEE or WITNESS the apostles being murdered as an event?


In other words, there is no generation today or in the future (regardless of how you measure a generation) that will ever SEE or WITNESS - with their eyes - the apostles' persecution. Not any present or future generation...because the apostles are already gone.

So the Messiah couldn't have meant that there will be a single generation that will LIVE THROUGH all of these events. It's impossible without developing time-travel or something. What's more reasonable is that He meant there would be a terminal generation that sees all of these events COME TO PASS (by them), and THAT generation will see the kingdom.


- The apostles' persecution and murder are IN OUR PAST.

- False gospels and false religions spreading are IN OUR PAST.

- The Temple's destruction is IN OUR PAST.

- Astronomical signs and earthly upheaval are currently COMING TO PASS US NOW.

...and sticking to the context the Messiah gave, the time of great tribulation was prophesied to start BEFORE the astronomical signs and earthly upheaval were to started immediately after that time (which, again, is coming to pass us now).


So we are the only generation to witness almost all of these events now IN OUR PAST. This generation today.

This is why I strongly believe the very next event is the Son of Man appearing in the clouds.

 

[Truth7t7]

Well, all means all, not just what we want to focus on. And Historicism is not my predetermined bias. Truth be told I was a futurist for decades and decades until I began studying more than just Matthew 24 while relying solely on preachers and teachers telling me that it was always "in the future". Luke 21, Ezekiel 33-39, Daniel 11-12, Revelation 5-14, etc, along with recorded history are all critical witnesses that forced me to reconsider what I was taught.

----

If we specifically focus on context, the Messiah was speaking to His apostles when He told them "this generation that sees these events will not pass away until all is fulfilled." But before He said that, He also told them that they'd be killed BEFORE even the temple was destroyed...so the apostles definitely wouldn't have seen all the events come to pass (as I know you'll agree)...but - and this is important - the murder of the apostles was one of the events the Messiah mentioned.


Q: If His apostles were murdered in the 1st century, how can *ANY* generation after that SEE or WITNESS the apostles being murdered as an event?


In other words, there is no generation today or in the future (regardless of how you measure a generation) that will ever SEE or WITNESS - with their eyes - the apostles' persecution. Not any present or future generation...because the apostles are already gone.

So the Messiah couldn't have meant that there will be a single generation that will LIVE THROUGH all of these events. It's impossible without developing time-travel or something. What's more reasonable is that He meant there would be a terminal generation that sees all of these events COME TO PASS (by them), and THAT generation will see the kingdom.


- The apostles' persecution and murder are IN OUR PAST.

- False gospels and false religions spreading are IN OUR PAST.

- The Temple's destruction is IN OUR PAST.

- Astronomical signs and earthly upheaval are currently COMING TO PASS US NOW.

...and sticking to the context the Messiah gave, the time of great tribulation was prophesied to start BEFORE the astronomical signs and earthly upheaval were to started immediately after that time (which, again, is coming to pass us now).


So we are the only generation to witness almost all of these events now IN OUR PAST. This generation today.

This is why I strongly believe the very next event is the Son of Man appearing in the clouds.

Once again, you give Complete Disregard to the context, and give no mention whatsoever to the (Season) presented nor the words (Near, Even At The Doors)

You build a complete assumption of the Apostles present as the generation, and disregard a (Future) generation from these apostles that will be eye witnesses to these events, that will not pass until all is fulfilled, (Including The Second Coming Of Jesus Christ)

You give (Complete Disregard) to the context of scripture, in a predetermined bias to keep the (Historicist) 1950+ year tribulation alive.

The timeline given below is short, (Season/Generation) not 1950+ years as (Historicism) falsely teaches.

1.) Verse 32 speaks directly of a (Season) summer is nigh.

2.) Verse 33 speaks of the (Generation) in verse 34 that will see all these things, this (Generation) will be at the very doors of the second coming

3.) Verse 34 The (Generation/40 Years) that witnesses the events will not pass, until all is fulfilled.

Matthew 24:32-34KJV
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

 

[GaryA]

What about the rest of Matthew 24? Such as Matthew 24:30-31?

Matthew 24:30-31 is referring to the Second Coming of Christ.

If it may be of help, please take a look at:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Olivet_Discourse.html

Be sure to also look at the 'Chronological Order' chart that is below the main chart.

 

[Truth7t7]

Matthew 24:30-31 is referring to the Second Coming of Christ.

If it may be of help, please take a look at:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Olivet_Discourse.html

Be sure to also look at the 'Chronological Order' chart that is below the main chart.

The Historicist Chart Presented Is False, Just As Pretersims Charts Are False.

The (Future) generation that will be eye witnesses to the events of Matthew 24, That (Future Generation) will not pass until all is fulfilled (Including The Second Coming Of Jesus Christ)

Gary You have given (Complete Disregard) to the context of scripture, in a predetermined bias to keep the (Historicist) 1950+ year tribulation alive.

The timeline given below is short, (Season/Generation) (Near, Even At The Doors) not a continuous succession of desolations and tribulations for 1950+ years as (Historicism) falsely teaches.

(The Generation Shall Not Pass (40 Years), Till All Things Are Fulfilled)

Historicism Is A False Deceptive Teaching Regarding Matthew Chapter 24

1.) Verse 32 speaks directly of a (Season) summer is nigh.

2.) Verse 33 speaks of the (Generation) in verse 34 that will see all these things, this (Generation) will be at the very doors of the second coming

3.) Verse 34 The (Generation/40 Years) that witnesses the events will not pass, until all is fulfilled.

Matthew 24:32-34KJV
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

 

[GaryA]

"this generation that sees these events will not pass away until all is fulfilled."

This is a dispensationalist interpretation error. The Bible does not actually say this part.

And, if you will do a Greek word study on the sentence that is actually recorded in scripture (in a few other places, also - including Revelation), you should discover that the actual meaning in the Greek is:

This generation shall not pass, till all these things begin to be fulfilled.

(or, begin to come to pass)

So then - Jesus was actually saying that the [current] generation (at the time) would not pass until ["this prophecy"] would begin to come to pass.

The statement is not all-inclusive of all of the different "parts" of the prophecy - as occurring in a short period of time.