I cannot understand the need for the crucifixion-and i think it’s holding my Christian life back

Duskey · Sep 12, 2020

Bugs said:

Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior and I fully understand the infinite importance of His sinless life, sacrificial death and glorious Resurrection. I thank Him on bended knee for what He has done for us.

That said, the OP asks a legitimate question; why was it necessary for Jesus to die? You answered by attacking the OP, completely trashing his very essence and existence, stating he deserves to be crucified and deserves to be tormented. You didn’t dig deep and truly ponder the question at its very core.

Bugs · Sep 12, 2020

Duskey said:

Are you offended by the part of the gospel that says you and I are sinners deserving of death? That is the reason Christ died, it does not have to be complicated and pages long of explanation.

Sipsey · Sep 12, 2020

Ann-Marie said:

THE QUESTION REMAINS UNANSWERED: Why would God offer his Son (an innocent/God) to pay for mens' sins and EXACTLY how does this work? How does the death of one take away the sins of all? Those sins should be paid for by each and every perpetrator. The answer is Atonement theory, but there have been many other theories about why Christ died. This one stuck. I think Jesus died because they felt He was a threat to the powers that "be" at the time. Period. If I could not sacrific my own child (and I am a sinner), how could God do any less.
Here are the theories put forth by MEN over time as to why Christ died: There are seven different theories that were put forth. But Atonement stuck:

https://www.sdmorrison.org/7-theories-of-the-atonement-summarized/

Justice is what we deserve, mercy is what is offered.
Which would you prefer, it seems we all have a choice.

PC123 · Sep 12, 2020

Ann-Marie said:

THE QUESTION REMAINS UNANSWERED: Why would God offer his Son (an innocent/God) to pay for mens' sins and EXACTLY how does this work? How does the death of one take away the sins of all? Those sins should be paid for by each and every perpetrator. The answer is Atonement theory, but there have been many other theories about why Christ died. This one stuck. I think Jesus died because they felt He was a threat to the powers that "be" at the time. Period. If I could not sacrific my own child (and I am a sinner), how could God do any less.
Here are the theories put forth by MEN over time as to why Christ died: There are seven different theories that were put forth. But Atonement stuck:

https://www.sdmorrison.org/7-theories-of-the-atonement-summarized/

Thank you very much... Of all the posts I found yours to be the most helpful with that article you linked.

eternally-gratefull · Sep 12, 2020

A good place to start is the day of atonement in the OT levitical law
It explains why Jesus as the lamb of god would take away the sin of the people

PC123 · Sep 12, 2020

MichaelLone said:

I don't think we are alone at all... I think that we are honest... Reading all the posts no one really answered our question...
The posts were all things that you and I already know but neither of them were capable of logically describing how killing my son would make up for the sins of others. The most helpful post was #80 where she posted a link to this article describing seven theories of atonement.

So, my friend, it seems that theologians have been grappling with this same question since the beginning and there are a few different perspectives. People always love to look as though they know the answer to everything. I see this far too often, people that are absolutely convinced of something such as being born again through faith when there is just as much evidence to say that its through baptism... Or that we are saved by faith only when there is evidence that says faith is dead without deeds... And people often take one side, ignore the scripture that contradicts and belligerently defend it as truth... Its absurd in my opinion...

I could easily say "Jesus died for our sins and blah blah blah" and really sound as though i know what im talking about. But now i think that we are actually being honest with our selves. There are many doctrines that I don't understand and i don't pretend to either. I find it very satisfying in bring humble and saying "God, i concede that my human mind is incapable of understanding this and so i put my faith in you" This is when faith is required, when we don't understand. If we could explain everything and understood it all then faith would not be required.

So don't be afraid my friend... I've been afraid to admit this and so i really appreciate you being brave enough to be honest...
I hope you find some peace on the issue as i have... Jesus wants us to approach him like children, they don't understand all this theology. Children just have the most basic concept of God, the rest is faith... Faith that we will one day be with Christ and learn all these mysteries...

May Gods peace be with you through our Lord Jesus Christ

garee · Sep 12, 2020

One thing I would add is to be careful with is that death "never to rise to new spirit life" does not take away sin. The father poured out Spirit life on dying flesh in jeopardy of his own Spirit . Like takes away the wage of sin

One work of one faith performed on the dead or dying flesh Jesus the Son of man. Life takes away death . The Son of man was strengthened and did not come to the end of corruption dead never to rise to new life.

I think it is one of the reasons he gives us Lazarus dead asleep four days . With the word four to signified a trial or suffering of faith .

Jesus three days .Three indicating the end of the matter.

Ann-Marie · Sep 12, 2020

Sipsey said:

Not all people are evil. God is love. Hell does not exist ... except as a separation from God. If it were actual fire, that would make God worse than Hitler. I give God way more credit than that and I trust God. I dont fear Him.

Sipsey said:

Ann-Marie · Sep 12, 2020

PC123 said:

You are welcome, but please do think for yourself. Read/learn/and then trust that God is love.
Look to Jesus .. read the Sermon on the Mount ... does He sound to you like He would punish you in a fiery hell that never stops burning you for eternity? The Jesus said forgive 77 x 7, which means infinitely.

I am sure there will be punishment, perhaps temporary or even permanent separation from God, but endleess horrific torture ... no way. Look to Jesus ... ALWAYS!!!!

Sipsey · Sep 12, 2020

Ann-Marie said:

So, are you saying that there are some that are so good, they have no need of God’s mercy? Do you think eternal separation, with or without fire, qualifies as hell?

garee · Sep 12, 2020

Ann-Marie said:

Amen I would hope to add. Death as to the letter of the law that caused corruption, dying the living sufferings of hell. It will be tossed in the fiery judgment of God never to rise and condemn through dying the sufferings of hell ever again.

The second death, the death to power of death the letter of the law, as it is written

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Ann-Marie · Sep 12, 2020

garee said:

All of the words used in the Bible and then translated to Hell in English meant grave:
In Hebrew: Sheol (meant grave)
In Greek: Hades (grave)
In Aramaic: Gehenna (was a dump where people burned things).

'The images of Hellfire came largely from Dante's work "Inferno". It is man's imagination of what Hellfire is.

I have a good evangelical friend who told me that she had always feared Hell until she studied The Bible in college and gained an understanding the issues we face with the Bible of which only a few are:

Translational errors, the fact that we don't have the originals or even the copies or their copies and since everything was written down on scroll and then repeated over and over again by hand, it is impossible that a few words were not messed up.

Add to this that everything that Jesus said was not written down for at least 30 to 70 years after His Death so we have memories or memories. Ever play telephone.

The Bible is the Inspired Word of God written by fallible men. And, I have been reading here for a long time before ever posting and judging by all the disagreement, we each see the Bible through a different lense.

Lucy-Pevensie · Sep 12, 2020

Ann-Marie said:

The question is well answered. We don't need long-winded theories of atonement. Only an innocent sacrifice has the power to cover sin. Tainted blood is powerless to cleanse. Perpetrators can't pay adequately for our own violations.

Do this experiment in your mind.
Get a nice white dress and spill some wine on it.
Then try to wash it out with dirty, oily water. I mean try to get it as clean as it was to start with.

We are headed for a new perfect world. We are going to be perfect creatures.

Ann-Marie · Sep 12, 2020

"""There is nothing you or I can do to be righteous, we are helpless. "all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags" There is nothing we can do to earn our way into heaven, Jesus Christ is essential for your salvation. He is not just a messenger, He is the only hope we have, our Lord and Savior. In John 14:6 it is written "Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. """"

It is not a question of "earning your way into Heaven" ... it is a question of living the life that Jesus implored us to live. What did He teach for three and half year if not to love Him and o Love our Neighbor. Do you honestly think he was preaching to us to do things we cannot possibly do or was he imploring us to try to do what we can to make the world a better place. What did he mean when we preached the Sermon on the Mount? Was it something to just listen to and ignore, or something He wanted us to try to do? What was Jesus saying when He said the two greatest commandements are these upon which hang all the rest:

1) Love God with all your heart
2) Love your Neighbor as Yourself (he meant love all people)

Here is the Sermon on The Mount .... why did He say these things ... for fun? or was he trying to TEACH US how to TREAT OTHERS?

Introduction to the Sermon on the Mount
5 Now when Jesus saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, 2 and he began to teach them.

The Beatitudes
He said:
3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called children of God.
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Salt and Light
13 “You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
14 “You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

The Fulfillment of the Law
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Murder
21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister[b][c] will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’[d] is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.
23 “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, 24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift.
25 “Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26 Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

Adultery
27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’[e] 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

Divorce
31 “It has been said, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.’[f] 32 But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

Oaths
33 “Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ 34 But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36 And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37 All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.[g]

Eye for Eye
38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’[h] 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

Ann-Marie · Sep 12, 2020

Love for Enemies
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[i] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Giving to the Needy
6 “Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.
2 “So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Prayer
5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
9 “This, then, is how you should pray:
“‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation,[j]
but deliver us from the evil one.[k]’
14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Fasting
16 “When you fast, do not look somber as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces to show others they are fasting. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 17 But when you fast, put oil on your head and wash your face, 18 so that it will not be obvious to others that you are fasting, but only to your Father, who is unseen; and your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Treasures in Heaven
19 “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
22 “The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are healthy,[l] your whole body will be full of light. 23 But if your eyes are unhealthy,[m] your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!
24 “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.

Do Not Worry
25 “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? 26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27 Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life[n]?
28 “And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? 31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

Judging Others
7 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
6 “Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

Ask, Seek, Knock
7 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
9 “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

The Narrow and Wide Gates
13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

True and False Prophets
15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

True and False Disciples
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

The Wise and Foolish Builders
24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”
28 When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, 29 because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law.

Lucy-Pevensie · Sep 12, 2020

Ann-Marie said:

Don't you understand that eternal separation from God IS a burning that is never quenched?
You should fear God. The only one who can decide your fate. Comparisons to Hitler are unfair to him.

Ann-Marie · Sep 12, 2020

If there is nothing we can do and we are just filthy rags, then Jesus wasting 3 1/2 years preaching to us about how to be.

EleventhHour · Sep 12, 2020

Ann-Marie said:

That is exactly what He was doing ..... pointing to a need for a Saviour who would do all those things and then through His death and Resurrection impute His righteousness to those who trust in Him for it.

Ann-Marie · Sep 12, 2020

Lucy-Pevensie said:

Yes, eternal separation from God is horrific. But it is not Hellfire (literal fire). I do not fear God because He is fair and he is loving. And He will decide my fate ... correct. I dont think that as many people are slated for that and why? Because Jesus was loving. He was love and His Father, God is love.
I did not compare Him to Hitler ... I said that someone like a Hitler or a Stalin ... and those who do horrible things ... will, in all probablibility never see God ... but then I am not God so I cant even decide that one.

You misunderstood me. I say God is love. You say I need to fear Him. Why? Why would I fear someone who is Love. And, though I am a sinner, I am not a filthy rag. I am not a bad person. I am redeemable. I was not taught this Doctrine of fiery Hell, a God who wants vengance and will burn people. Now, that is not believing and trusting that God will be fair.

Ann-Marie · Sep 12, 2020

EleventhHour said:

So when Jesus said: Help the poor ... he meant that He should do it? Got it.

I cannot understand the need for the crucifixion-and i think it’s holding my Christian life back

Banned

New member

Well-known member

Banned

eternally-gratefull

Guest

Banned

Banned

Member

Member

Well-known member

Banned

Member

Senior Member

Member

Member

Senior Member

Member

EleventhHour

Guest

Member

Member