Too late after our death?
- Thread starter Derek1955
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There is what is known as Postmortem Evangelism Theology. I don't really know what to make of it, but if it's real then it's something only God can do as far as I can tell. Here are some verses as to why people believe in it.
“Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. John 5:25
For I am persuaded that neither death nor life… shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Rom. 8:38-39
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 1 Pet. 3:18-19
For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. 1 Pet. 4:6
“Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. John 5:25
For I am persuaded that neither death nor life… shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Rom. 8:38-39
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 1 Pet. 3:18-19
For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. 1 Pet. 4:6
You are sincere in your writing, but I caution you about spreading it too thinly. Many deliberately misinterpret the words of Christ so as to justify their wickedness and licentiousness.
JUDGE NOT
The phrase "judge not", as quoted from scripture, is meant to be applied to members of the religious family, not those outside of it. According to the LAW (Torah - or 1st 5 books of the Bible), those outside are exposed to judgement BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT PROTECTED BY THE LAW.
The same LAW that condemns can also be applied to redemption, but since those outside the LAW refuse the LAW they are condemned. (Those who live apart from the LAW will die by the LAW." - Romans 2:12
FORGIVENESS
Again we must turn to the LAW to learn the standard of forgiveness we can expect and which is expected of us. Quoting a single obscure verse and using it to justify a doctrine of forgiveness is neither accurate nor true.
GOD DOES NOT HEAR THE PRAYER OF SINNERS. (John 9:31)
How then may sinners obtain forgiveness? We obtain it by uttering the ONLY PRAYER God hears from sinners - the humble prayer of repentance (desire to turn away from SIN and never do it again). Forgiveness MUST be preceded by confession of SIN.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. - 1 John 1:9
God grants forgiveness to those who HUMBLY approach Him and ask for it - BUT NOT UNTIL THEN.
The Bible states that we who follow Christ are to be imitators of Him. Therefore, if HE forgives those who ask it of Him, we are also required to forgive those WHO ASK IT OF US. On the other hand, if a man offends us and does not ask forgiveness, with an attitude of repentance and humility, then we are not required to give it. "You have not because you ask not." - James 4:2
The blessed state of forgiveness is described in great detail in the books of Exodus and Leviticus. There is a reason for God's standard of behavior, called the LAW. There is also a procedure God outlined for redemption. Redemption involves a great deal more than simply saying, "forget about it". It involves a total and complete cessation of the offensive act.
THE LAW STILL STANDS
There are misguided individuals among us who believe they can continue in their SIN and LICENTIOUSNESS for as long as they choose - ignorantly supposing God will turn a blind eye to any filthy thing they choose to put their hands upon. Nothing could be further from the truth. Jesus said, "I did NOT come to abolish the LAW. I came to fulfill it." If Jesus didn't abolish the LAW, then THE LAW STILL STANDS.
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.
A good Bible study at this point would focus on what Jesus meant by the additional statement that He came to fulfill the LAW. What portion of the LAW did He fulfill and how did He do it?
To repeat the Biblical standard for judging and forgiving, the onus is upon the reader to understand the LAW. Therein is defined the principle of forgiveness and judgment and redemption as well as how and why it works. The person who does not accept the LAW will be judged by it - and die. Like it or not, that is the standard by which all of us must live or die.
Hope this helps. Let the reader who has a heart to understand do so.
that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
Jesus was baptized received the anointing and began to preach the gospel. As soon as John was imprisoned
“The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”
Luke 16:16 KJV
“For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.”
Matthew 11:13 KJV
The change is here
“Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”
Mark 1:14-15
the gospel is the gospel everything from this point forward is the gospel of the kingdom of God it doesn’t change
“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
Matthew 24:14 KJV
it’s what Paul continued preaching
“And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.”
Acts 20:25 KJV
“And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.”
Acts 28:30-31
any disciple of Jesus Christ today or then is the body of Christ the church is made of his disciples
“And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.”
Acts 11:26 KJV
when did this other different gospel start and who preached it ?
“The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”
Luke 16:16 KJV
“For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.”
Matthew 11:13 KJV
The change is here
“Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”
Mark 1:14-15
the gospel is the gospel everything from this point forward is the gospel of the kingdom of God it doesn’t change
“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
Matthew 24:14 KJV
it’s what Paul continued preaching
“And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.”
Acts 20:25 KJV
“And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.”
Acts 28:30-31
any disciple of Jesus Christ today or then is the body of Christ the church is made of his disciples
“And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.”
Acts 11:26 KJV
when did this other different gospel start and who preached it ?
Christ superceeds everything else.
I’m yes we don’t have a liscence to sin I agree with that. Truth is though we have only
I agree we don’t have a license to sin but your view of the mosaic law is not in line with the New Testament Moses Gave one testament Jesus gave another .
“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;”
Romans 3:19-
Thisnisntje righteousness of God without the law that they witnessed
“The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”
Luke 16:16 KJV
That will be preached until the end it’s about the word of God through Christ
“For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.”
Romans 10:2-4
“But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.”
Galatians 5:18 KJV
“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
John 6:63 KJV
our obedience and faith are in Christ not Moses
I’m yes we don’t have a liscence to sin I agree with that. Truth is though we have only
I agree we don’t have a license to sin but your view of the mosaic law is not in line with the New Testament Moses Gave one testament Jesus gave another .
“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;”
Romans 3:19-
Thisnisntje righteousness of God without the law that they witnessed
“The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”
Luke 16:16 KJV
That will be preached until the end it’s about the word of God through Christ
“For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.”
Romans 10:2-4
“But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.”
Galatians 5:18 KJV
“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
John 6:63 KJV
our obedience and faith are in Christ not Moses
I said the gospel was preached by jesus first to Israel , a remnant accepted him the rest rejected and crucified the messiah and his kingdom . So the same gospel was then sent out to all people all kindreds of the earth it’s always been the promise
and yes I feel I waste time Quoting scripture to certain people it’s like you don’t even read it but just are intent to argue.
what do you mean Jesus has no body ? If your saying he had no followers none
Who believed in him tour of course wrong
listen carefully “ the teaching you have accepted that Paul is somehow the ruler of the church and not Jesus is not something I’d ever fall for myself but I’ll call it good on this conversation also and look for people willing believe and discuss the actual gospel Other than one piece of it pretty sure we’re all clear Jesus died for sins what else you got ?
any edification to offer ? Do pauls teachings apply to the church ?
You NEver answered
It’s all true brother everything he promised about eternal life is true.
“Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?”
John 11:25-26
“And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.”
Luke 23:42-43
“He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.”
Revelation 2:7 KJV
“Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself:
he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life;
and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.”
1 John 5:5, 9-13 KJV
sometimes we have to realize we’re living in a clunker but God has a mansion awaitin’
“Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you.
I go to prepare a place for you.”
John 14:1-2 KJV
faith is the path through fear
“Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?”
John 11:25-26
“And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.”
Luke 23:42-43
“He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.”
Revelation 2:7 KJV
“Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself:
he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life;
and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.”
1 John 5:5, 9-13 KJV
sometimes we have to realize we’re living in a clunker but God has a mansion awaitin’
“Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you.
I go to prepare a place for you.”
John 14:1-2 KJV
faith is the path through fear
You are right and wrong all at the same time. This is typical of post-protestant church members.
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.
You agreed with me on this point early in your post, but denied it later on with misinterpretation of scriptural application of the LAW. Are you attempting to justify SIN and LAWlessness or are you not? The words of a double minded man are not efficacious.
Do you not understand such an argument is used to subvert God's plan of redemption as well as western civilization as a whole? You demonstrate a confused double-minded understanding of what the LAW is and what it is meant to convey.
NO ONE CAN BE SAVED APART FROM THE LAW.
What is the purpose of the LAW? Do you know? (Sunday school 101)
The Torah, first five books of the Bible, chronicle the establishment of 613 laws.
The bulk of those laws apply to the expression and celebration of Judaism. Specifically they refer to dietary laws, ceremonial laws, and laws regarding civil actions, violations and criminal acts. The society established under Moses is technically known as a Theocracy. An example of a modern Theocracy is the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and its Muslim neighbors. Today the State of Israel is a democracy. Its laws and observances are markedly different as a consequence.
Many of the old ceremonial laws and ordinances became obsolete and passed away when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and Herod's temple in 70 AD. The Roman destruction is a watershed moment in the history of Israel as well as understanding of Biblical references to the LAW as they appear in the Epistles of the New Testament.
When the writer of the book of Hebrews states the LAW is becoming obsolete (8:13), the temple had not yet been destroyed. Animal sacrifices, as required by the LAW, were still being performed. Following the death and resurrection of Christ they were no longer necessary.
"I did NOT come to abolish the LAW, but to fulfill it." - Jesus as quoted by Matthew 5:17
If Jesus didn't abolish the LAW, then what did He do to fulfill it and when was that accomplished? Why was it necessary for Jesus to fulfill the LAW and what makes the changes He made to be perfect? Do you know? If so, please tell us.
When Paul writes in Romans 10 that Jesus is the end of the LAW, Paul meant two things.
1. The imperfect LAW passed into history. (What was that imperfect LAW? Do you know?)
2. Jesus became the perfect definition of the LAW as God gave too Moses. (The second section of the Bible is called the New Covenant. What is the New Covenant or LAW and what expression of God's divine providence established it?)
If licentiousness is denied, as you say it is, then upon what other than the LAW is obedience and trust in God to be based?
You can't deny the LAW and cover it with licentious grace. You can't have it both ways. Grace is given that we may live according to the LAW. Apart from grace, this is an impossible task.
(Acts 2-1-31)
Do you not know that the Jewish festival of weeks is called Shavout? This is the observance of God's gift of the LAW.
Do you not know that the Christian festival of Pentecost is the observance of God's gift of GRACE via the Holy Spirit (Ruach Ha-Kodesh)?
Do you not know that BOTH happened on the SAME CALENDAR DAY? Look it up.
Is this a coincidence or is God saying LAW and GRACE are given to mankind for the purpose of salvation and right living?
LAW and GRACE aren't separate matters. They are two sides of the same coin as it were.
Grace isn't given to justify LAWlessness and the LAW isn't given to make the life of man a misery of pointless ceremonies.'
They are given to save and Jesus is the focal point of its application.
that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.
You agreed with me on this point early in your post, but denied it later on with misinterpretation of scriptural application of the LAW. Are you attempting to justify SIN and LAWlessness or are you not? The words of a double minded man are not efficacious.
Do you not understand such an argument is used to subvert God's plan of redemption as well as western civilization as a whole? You demonstrate a confused double-minded understanding of what the LAW is and what it is meant to convey.
NO ONE CAN BE SAVED APART FROM THE LAW.
What is the purpose of the LAW? Do you know? (Sunday school 101)
The Torah, first five books of the Bible, chronicle the establishment of 613 laws.
The bulk of those laws apply to the expression and celebration of Judaism. Specifically they refer to dietary laws, ceremonial laws, and laws regarding civil actions, violations and criminal acts. The society established under Moses is technically known as a Theocracy. An example of a modern Theocracy is the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and its Muslim neighbors. Today the State of Israel is a democracy. Its laws and observances are markedly different as a consequence.
Many of the old ceremonial laws and ordinances became obsolete and passed away when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and Herod's temple in 70 AD. The Roman destruction is a watershed moment in the history of Israel as well as understanding of Biblical references to the LAW as they appear in the Epistles of the New Testament.
When the writer of the book of Hebrews states the LAW is becoming obsolete (8:13), the temple had not yet been destroyed. Animal sacrifices, as required by the LAW, were still being performed. Following the death and resurrection of Christ they were no longer necessary.
"I did NOT come to abolish the LAW, but to fulfill it." - Jesus as quoted by Matthew 5:17
If Jesus didn't abolish the LAW, then what did He do to fulfill it and when was that accomplished? Why was it necessary for Jesus to fulfill the LAW and what makes the changes He made to be perfect? Do you know? If so, please tell us.
When Paul writes in Romans 10 that Jesus is the end of the LAW, Paul meant two things.
1. The imperfect LAW passed into history. (What was that imperfect LAW? Do you know?)
2. Jesus became the perfect definition of the LAW as God gave too Moses. (The second section of the Bible is called the New Covenant. What is the New Covenant or LAW and what expression of God's divine providence established it?)
If licentiousness is denied, as you say it is, then upon what other than the LAW is obedience and trust in God to be based?
You can't deny the LAW and cover it with licentious grace. You can't have it both ways. Grace is given that we may live according to the LAW. Apart from grace, this is an impossible task.
(Acts 2-1-31)
Do you not know that the Jewish festival of weeks is called Shavout? This is the observance of God's gift of the LAW.
Do you not know that the Christian festival of Pentecost is the observance of God's gift of GRACE via the Holy Spirit (Ruach Ha-Kodesh)?
Do you not know that BOTH happened on the SAME CALENDAR DAY? Look it up.
Is this a coincidence or is God saying LAW and GRACE are given to mankind for the purpose of salvation and right living?
LAW and GRACE aren't separate matters. They are two sides of the same coin as it were.
Grace isn't given to justify LAWlessness and the LAW isn't given to make the life of man a misery of pointless ceremonies.'
They are given to save and Jesus is the focal point of its application.
that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
Romans 7:1-4 -
1 Or are you ignorant brothers (for I speak to those knowing the law), that the law rules over the man for as long as the time he is alive? 2 For the married woman is bound by law to the living husband; but if the husband should die, she is cleared from the law of the husband. 3 So then, if she is to another man, the husband being alive, she will be called an adulteress; but if the husband should die, she is free from the law, so as for her not to be an adulteress, having been to another man.
4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have been put to death to the Law through [/by means of] the body of Christ, for you to belong to Another, to the One having been raised out from the dead, so that we should bear fruit to God.
Romans 8:3-4 -
3 For of the Law being powerless in that it was weak through the flesh, God, having sent His Son in likeness of sin of flesh and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the righteousness of the Law should be fulfilled IN us [note: not "BY us"] not walking according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
1Tim1:3-11 -
3 Just as I urged you to remain in Ephesus when I was going to Macedonia, so that you might warn certain men not to teach other doctrines, 4 nor to give heed to myths and endless genealogies, which bring speculations rather than God’s stewardship, which is in faith.
5 Now the goal of our instruction is love out of a pure heart, and a good conscience, and a sincere faith, 6 from which some, having missed the mark, have turned aside to meaningless discourse, 7 desiring to be teachers of the Law, understanding neither what they are saying nor that about which they confidently assert.
8 Now we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9 knowing this, that law is not enacted for a righteous one, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and sinful, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for slayers of man, 10 for the sexually immoral, homosexuals, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and if anything other is opposed to being sound in the teaching, 11 according to the gospel of the glory of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.
1 Or are you ignorant brothers (for I speak to those knowing the law), that the law rules over the man for as long as the time he is alive? 2 For the married woman is bound by law to the living husband; but if the husband should die, she is cleared from the law of the husband. 3 So then, if she is to another man, the husband being alive, she will be called an adulteress; but if the husband should die, she is free from the law, so as for her not to be an adulteress, having been to another man.
4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have been put to death to the Law through [/by means of] the body of Christ, for you to belong to Another, to the One having been raised out from the dead, so that we should bear fruit to God.
Romans 8:3-4 -
3 For of the Law being powerless in that it was weak through the flesh, God, having sent His Son in likeness of sin of flesh and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the righteousness of the Law should be fulfilled IN us [note: not "BY us"] not walking according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
1Tim1:3-11 -
3 Just as I urged you to remain in Ephesus when I was going to Macedonia, so that you might warn certain men not to teach other doctrines, 4 nor to give heed to myths and endless genealogies, which bring speculations rather than God’s stewardship, which is in faith.
5 Now the goal of our instruction is love out of a pure heart, and a good conscience, and a sincere faith, 6 from which some, having missed the mark, have turned aside to meaningless discourse, 7 desiring to be teachers of the Law, understanding neither what they are saying nor that about which they confidently assert.
8 Now we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9 knowing this, that law is not enacted for a righteous one, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and sinful, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for slayers of man, 10 for the sexually immoral, homosexuals, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and if anything other is opposed to being sound in the teaching, 11 according to the gospel of the glory of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.