So I have an idea for a discussion

[Guojing]

I’ve said this three times

“For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:3‬ ‭K

that’s doesn’t say nothing else applies it’s part of the gospel


what about the things Paul taught ? Are those “ not to be taught anymore ? Is this true ?

“Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:1-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and is this true ? Should Christians believe this?

“For we walk by faith, not by sight
Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord,

we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:7, 9-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

does all the hundreds of other verses of Paul apply ? Or does the fact that he first preached about the resurrection eliminate all the validity of the rest ? Seriously consider

Let's go thru this step by step

First, would you answer the simple question, "What is the gospel that saves today?"

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The true gospel that saves today is found in 1 Cor 15:1-4.

Anyone who preach any other gospel to unbelievers today, Paul pronounced a double curse on them in Galatians 1:8-9.

That to me is very clear.

‬‬

Again, at the time that Jesus spoke His Olivet Discourse (in response to their Q's in Matt24:3), and throughout His response even (chpts 24-25), He had NOT YET SPOKEN to them ANYTHING at all about the Subject of "Rapture". Instead, He was speaking in reference to His promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom, which will commence upon His "RETURN" to the earth.

This is all they were (up to this point) acquainted with (via their OT scriptures, as well as Jesus' teachings in His earthly ministry, first advent). They would not have known to ask Him about "the end of the WORLD". And this is neither the wording NOR the context of His response in these 2 chpts (nor before and up to that point).

‬‬

This Matthew 24:29-31 is parallel to Isaiah 27:12-13... note WHO and TO WHERE, and in WHAT MANNER.

Note also what "from the four winds" means (the entirety of both phrases refer to "from the extremities" i.e. no where and no one of the "saints" left out--ALL "saints" will be present and accounted for, FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom age--ALL "saints" having died before that point will have been resurrected BEFORE/BY this point in the chronology--and present to ENJOY the MK age--along with those "saints" who will ENTER it in "still-living" bodies, capable of reproducing/bearing children... [and 'the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY'/WE will be returning "WITH Him" at that point in the chronology])



Biblically speaking, the word "RETURN" is used ONLY in reference to His Second Coming TO THE EARTH (NOT at "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" point in time); see Lk19:12,15,17,19 "RETURN" - when He will deal out responsibilities having to do with "have thou authority over 10 cities" and "likewise be thou over 5 cities" (note: "cities" are on the earth); and Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" (i.e. as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom!)... THEN the meal [G347--including as found in Matt8:11 and its parallel!--i.e. the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom]


[note to the readers: "the Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]" is NOT "the guests [PLURAL]" nor the "10 Virgins [PLURAL]" nor "the servants" of that particular time-period which immediately precedes His "RETURN" to the earth, where they will still be located upon His "RETURN" there [that is, to and on the earth]--He is not coming to "MARRY" any of those... and these persons will have NEVER lifted off the earth [unlike the event of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]," which is distinct... in every way])

so can you just explain in your words what you mean by rapture people have different ideas of it . If I just asked you “ what’s the rapture ?” What would you say to me in person ?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Let's go thru this step by step

First, would you answer the simple question, "What is the gospel that saves today?"

I agree step by step there’s only the one gospel. There is no different gospel his death and resurrection is a part of the gospel . His death and resurrection is recorded in the four gospel accounts in every bible that is the gospel .

there titles are “ the gospel according to Matthew mark like and John . You keep asking me “ what gospel saves today “ the same gospel that has always saved the only gospel , the events on the cross are essential part they are NOT the entire gospel.

without his death and resurrection we can’t be saved without his word of truth we can’t be saved

 

[Guojing]

I agree step by step there’s only the one gospel. There is no different gospel his death and resurrection is a part of the gospel . His death and resurrection is recorded in the four gospel accounts in every bible that is the gospel .

there titles are “ the gospel according to Matthew mark like and John . You keep asking me “ what gospel saves today “ the same gospel that has always saved the only gospel , the events on the cross are essential part they are NOT the entire gospel.

without his death and resurrection we can’t be saved without his word of truth we can’t be saved

I already stated to you that, during the 4 gospels, a Jew did not need to believe in the death burial and resurrection of Christ to be saved.

It has not happened during that time.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Let's go thru this step by step

First, would you answer the simple question, "What is the gospel that saves today?"

but you totally ignored my question it’s simple do pauls teachings in his letters written to the church apply to the church ? Very simple question

 

[Guojing]

but you totally ignored my question it’s simple do pauls teachings in his letters written to the church apply to the church ? Very simple question

That is why I am going thru step by step with you.

Don't worry, you will get the answer as we progress.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I already stated to you that, during the 4 gospels, a Jew does not need to believe in the death burial and resurrection of Christ to be saved.

It has not happened during that time.

what are you talking about ? Of course an Israelite didn’t have to believe Jesus was dead and resurrected I agree I don’t see your point That doesn’t change the gospel. The gospel begins when Jesus arrives and ends when he dies and raises up and is taken to heaven

 

[Pilgrimshope]

That is why I am going thru step by step with you.

Don't worry, you will get the answer as we progress.

no I won’t there’s absolutely nothing you can say to convince
Me that the gospel isn’t the gospel sorry

 

[Pilgrimshope]

That is why I am going thru step by step with you.

Don't worry, you will get the answer as we progress.

you can’t just say yes they do apply to the church or no they don’t apply ? Seems shady

 

[throughfaith]

Now did you notice that he said "according to the scriptures"? This means he used the Old Testament prophesies to show them that this was God's plan all along. He used scriptures from the OT to show that it was God's plan that the Messaiah would suffer and bleed, he showed them scriptures that he would be buried with the rich, he showed them scriptures that he would rise again the third day.

Therefore you must concede that it is possible to preach these Old Testament scriptures by Jesus and his disciples before the cross, and that they were putting their faith in the cross when as yet they did not realize exactly how it was going to be fulfilled. That is why it could be said.. "You are clean by my Word" and "rejoice that your names are written in heaven"
Yes all that he did, the death, burial and resurrection was necessary but one could have faith in that without even understanding it. The thief on the cross was saved by faith by believing that Jesus was the King as prophesied and he did not have to understand what all that meant.

I'm not saying people were not saved by faith before the cross . I'm simply saying they were not preaching about it . Peter rather cut a man's ear off than let happen the very thing that saves anyone .When I say that ,I mean if Jesus did not die and rise we would all be lost .

 

[Guojing]

what are you talking about ? Of course an Israelite didn’t have to believe Jesus was dead and resurrected I agree I don’t see your point That doesn’t change the gospel. The gospel begins when Jesus arrives and ends when he dies and raises up and is taken to heaven

If you believe that, then how can you then conclude that " the same gospel that has always saved the only gospel "

If you believe that one needs to believe in the death burial and resurrection of Christ to be saved now, and you also believe that "an Israelite didn’t have to believe Jesus was dead and resurrected I agree"

Then both gospels cannot be the same.

 

[Guojing]

no I won’t there’s absolutely nothing you can say to convince
Me that the gospel isn’t the gospel sorry

I am not trying to convince you of anything you don't want to be convinced of.

I am just curious what you understand by "the gospel that saves", what exactly is the content in that gospel?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I already stated to you that, during the 4 gospels, a Jew did not need to believe in the death burial and resurrection of Christ to be saved.

It has not happened during that time.

Israel believed the prophets

If you believe that, then how can you then conclude that " the same gospel that has always saved the only gospel "

If you believe that one needs to believe in the death burial and resurrection of Christ to be saved now, and you also believe that "an Israelite didn’t have to believe Jesus was dead and resurrected I agree"

Then both gospels cannot be the same.

there aren’t two there’s one you are taking an event from the gospel and trying to reject the rest of the gospel and say the one part of the gospel is a different gospel

look again jesus is the lord he saves him , not the cross but Jesus this is before his death

“Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.

And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭7:47-48, 50‬ ‭

that woman is as saved as anyone else after the death of jesus. Jesus is the gospel friend . It’s like you don’t grasp who Jesus is .

Its Jesus Christ who saves he is the one who says who is saved and who is not forever and ever only Jesus .

he saved them who believed in him before his death and he’ll save us who believe in him today but what we can never do is deny the promises And parameters of salvation he spoke and then claim salvation There is no other gospel just the same one

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I am not trying to convince you of anything you don't want to be convinced of.

I am just curious what you understand by "the gospel that saves", what exactly is the content in that gospel?

I’ve told you several times yea no I don’t want to be convinced to ignore my lord and savior who suffered and died for
My sins eternal Word so I appreciate that sentiment thank you

 

[Guojing]

Israel believed the prophets

What do you mean by that statement?

 

[Guojing]

Israel believed the prophets


there aren’t two there’s one you are taking an event from the gospel and trying to reject the rest of the gospel and say the one part of the gospel is a different gospel

look again jesus is the lord he saves him , not the cross but Jesus this is before his death

“Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.

And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭7:47-48, 50‬ ‭

that woman is as saved as anyone else after the death of jesus. Jesus is the gospel friend . It’s like you don’t grasp who Jesus is .

Its Jesus Christ who saves he is the one who says who is saved and who is not forever and ever only Jesus .

he saved them who believed in him before his death and he’ll save us who believe in him today but what we can never do is deny the promises And parameters of salvation he spoke and then claim salvation There is no other gospel just the same one

So are you saying there is no need for any of us to believe that Jesus died for our sins and rose again on the 3rd day, since you are claiming that woman in Luke 7 was saved without believing that?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

If you believe that, then how can you then conclude that " the same gospel that has always saved the only gospel "

If you believe that one needs to believe in the death burial and resurrection of Christ to be saved now, and you also believe that "an Israelite didn’t have to believe Jesus was dead and resurrected I agree"

Then both gospels cannot be the same.

What do you mean by that statement?

That Israel believed the prophets , the messiah would die for the sins of the people.

“But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭53:5-6, 10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Christ would rise from the dead and ascend to Gods right hand forever
.

“For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.”
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭16:8, 10-11‬ ‭

they didn’t have to understand the details they heard the same
Message about the messiah dying for sin and being raised from death they are like us they wee far away from it but weere told of it , were just the ones after and have heard it after instead of before either way it’s faith

 

[Pilgrimshope]

So are you saying there is no need for any of us to believe that Jesus died for our sins and rose again on the 3rd day, since you are claiming that woman in Luke 7 was saved without believing that?

no I’ve said several times the death and resurrection is essential I’m saying that you don’t believe one thing and reject the rest

 

[Guojing]

no I’ve said several times the death and resurrection is essential I’m saying that you don’t believe one thing and reject the rest

Was it essential during the time before Christ died too?

 

[Guojing]

That Israel believed the prophets , the messiah would die for the sins of the people.

“But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭53:5-6, 10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Christ would rise from the dead and ascend to Gods right hand forever
.

“For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.”
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭16:8, 10-11‬ ‭

they didn’t have to understand the details they heard the same
Message about the messiah dying for sin and being raised from death they are like us they wee far away from it but weere told of it , were just the ones after and have heard it after instead of before either way it’s faith

You are aware that Peter rebuked Jesus telling him he had to die during the 4 gospels?

He grew up with studying the Law and the Prophets, yet he did not believe Jesus had to die.

Was he saved during the 4 Gospel time period?