So I have an idea for a discussion

[throughfaith]

it doesn’t matter it’s jesus who saves before or after the cross you have absolutely no grounds for tour argument. Jesus saves not the cross

What you have just said is heresey and no Christian should have said what you just said .
Wrong . 21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
believe what ? Just Jesus ? no
1¶Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3¶For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

11Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.
12¶Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

 

[throughfaith]

it doesn’t matter it’s jesus who saves before or after the cross you have absolutely no grounds for tour argument. Jesus saves not the cross

Its what Jesus did on the Cross and the resurection that saves . No one ,including Abraham and everyone that believed in the OT would be lost without the death ,burial and resurection .

 

[WithinReason]

Matthew 11:28-29

King James Version



28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Jesus was citing:

Exo_33:14 And he said, My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest.​

Jesus (the Son), the Person/Being who is like unto the Person/Being of the Father, and is the Highest Messenger of the Father. Therefore wherever Jesus is sent by the Father, Jesus perfectly represents the Father in His own Person, and comes in His Father's name, and it is therefore as if the Father's presence were there where Jesus is representing the Father, and called His "presence".

Joh_5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.​

The Person/Being of the Holy Ghost/Spirit works in the same way with Jesus, as the Holy Ghost does not come in His own name, but rather in the name of the Son, representing the Son perfectly:

Joh_14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.​

​

Rom_8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.​

​

Php_1:19 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,​

​

1Pe_1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.​

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Its what Jesus did on the Cross and the resurection that saves . No one ,including Abraham and everyone that believed in the OT would be lost without the death ,burial and resurection .

here this is all I can do for You


here is the gospel according to mark

“The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

this record of the gospel you find peters viewpoint , his eyewitness to the truth of the gospel. It focuses on the power and authority of Jesus ministry his miracles and kingdom teachings but it’s peters viewpoint and the details he perceived.

and here the gospel according to Matthew

“ The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

this account is that of Matthew an apostle and the things and details that he perceived to be important , it’s Matthews eyewitness to the gospel. It focuses on jesus humanity as the son of man his kingship of Israel and prophecy. It is the same gospel from an Israelite perspective

the gospel according to Luke

“Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;
It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭1:1-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

this account “ the things most assuredly to be believed Among us “
is from Luke the physician a gentile convert to the church and companion in Paul’s ministry to the gentiles and also the author of acts.

and the gospel according to John

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:1-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Johns gospel focuses on the heavenly things the spiritual truths of the gospel . Jesus Christ’s divine origins , his becoming a man , and returning to his former glory

it’s writer John was one of the three closest people on earth to jesus. Johns gospel causes growth in Christ by the spirit.

the role of the apostle including Paul was to witnesses to all the world of the truth of this one gospel .....and its eye opening when you realize we can learn thier witness everyday by opening the Bible.

“Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:1, 3-6‬ ‭KJV

there’s one gospel to believe or reject whether Jew or gentile I hope you reconsider but feel arguing never helps

 

[Pilgrimshope]

What you have just said is heresey and no Christian should have said what you just said .
Wrong . 21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
believe what ? Just Jesus ? no
1¶Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3¶For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

11Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.
12¶Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

that Jesus saves before the cross or after is heresy ? Yes if someone rejects the gospel it would be heresy to say that Here’s someone saved by grace through faith by Jesus before the “ cross”

“And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.

Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.

My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment. Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.

And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭7:44-48, 50‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Salvation is when you recognize who the savior actually is like this sinful woman did . You are trying to honor the cross and reject Gods word that’s what saves friend as long as one rejects it there is no life . Now that you’ve labeled me a heretic I’m going to ignore your posts it’s just an argument you seek

you should learn the gospel then you’ll realize who’s word your rejecting

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I Praise God that his word is so powerful and I am happy this verse did so much for you and your walk with our great God.
Blessings back to you

ummm I’m rubber your glue , so let the blessing be on you 😃

 

[throughfaith]

that Jesus saves before the cross or after is heresy ? Yes if someone rejects the gospel it would be heresy to say that Here’s someone saved by grace through faith by Jesus before the “ cross”

“And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.

Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.

My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment. Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.

And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭7:44-48, 50‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Salvation is when you recognize who the savior actually is like this sinful woman did . You are trying to honor the cross and reject Gods word that’s what saves friend as long as one rejects it there is no life . Now that you’ve labeled me a heretic I’m going to ignore your posts it’s just an argument you seek

you should learn the gospel then you’ll realize who’s word your rejecting

I haven't said no one was saved by Faith before the Cross .My point was simply that the disciples were not preaching the death ,burial and resurrection. They were not preaching that for the forgivness o f sins . They were preaching the kindgdom .

 

[WithinReason]

Matthew 6:33

New International Version

33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

When Jesus was teaching, every word must have been important, could you elaborate a little on what Jesus stated in the following verses from the NIV?

1. Matthew 17:21 ​

2. Matthew 18:11 ​

3. Matthew 23:14 ​

4. Mark 7:16 ​

5. Mark 9:44 ​

6. Mark 9:46 ​

7. Mark 11:26 ​

8. Mark 15:28 ​

9. Luke 17:36 ​

10. John 5:4 ​

11. Acts 8:37 ​

12. Acts 15:34 ​

13. Acts 24:7 ​

14. Acts 28:29 ​

15. Romans 16:24 ​

16. I John 5:7​

I know in Acts, Romans and 1 John that others are speaking, but it is the Spirit of Christ that is in them speaking, and so I feel they would be pretty important too. We can look at one at a time, and so you may please choose which one you would like to consider first with me. If the places of text are somewhat difficult to understand in the NIV, perhaps we can look at some of the koine Greek and try to understand the truth from them there, as the NIV loves to rely upon the 'best' and most reliable MSS (manuscripts), and so looking at them may help also.

For instance:

The King James Bible, faithful as ever reads:

Mar 9:29 And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting.​

In the NWT & NIV, in Mark 9:29, it reads:

Mark 9:29 NWT - 29 He said to them: “This kind can come out only by prayer.”​

​

Mark 9:29 NIV - 29 He replied, “This kind can come out only by prayer.[a]”​

The side notation on the NWT says [red, bold and underline added by myself]:

​

"... by prayer: Some manuscripts add “and fasting.” But the earliest and most reliable manuscripts do not include “and fasting.” These words were evidently added by copyists who advocated fasting and practiced it. They repeatedly included references to fasting where these were not found in earlier copies.—See study note on Mt 17:21. ..."​

The NIV notation:

Mark 9:29 Some manuscripts prayer and fasting

That is a total lie. Notice:

It is because of Codex Sinaiticus (aleph) (desert) and Codex Vaticanus (B) (secret vaults) (Matthew 24:26) and 0274 (pc, no cursives are cited by the N/A, or UBS), k. These (alone) leave off “and fasting”.

Yet, consider that vast evidence for “and fasting”:

​

“… P45​

Aleph-2​

C, D, E, F, G, H, K, L, M, N, S, U, V, W, X, Y​

Gamma, Delta, Theta, Pi, Sigma, Phi, Psi, Omega​

Cursives: MAJORITY fam 1,13​

Old Latin: a, aur, b, d, f, f2, i, l, q, r1, Vulgate​

Syriac: Pes.hitta, (sin, old Syriac), Harclean, Palestinian​

Coptic: Sahidic, Bohairic​

Gothic: Armenian, Ethiopic​

Also extant in 047?, 055, 0211, 0233?, 0257? …” - A Closer Look: Early Manuscripts & The AV, by Jack Moorman, page 79​

​

It is not as the NWT or NIV notation which says "Some manuscripts", but in all practicability, all of them. It is not as the NWT notation says, "the earliest and most reliable manuscripts", but only primarily refers to Vaticanus and Sinaiticus the two most emended codices/texts on earth.

It is even found in the so called ECF:

Thomas Aquinas, citing Chrysostom, and Theophylact, and Bede, and Pseudo-Jerome, in Catena Aurea, states on Mark 9:29:

"… Chrys.: They feared that perchance they had lost the grace conferred upon them; for they had already received power over unclean spirits.​

​

It goes on: “And He said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing but by prayer and fasting.” …" - https://ccel.org/ccel/aquinas/catena2/catena2.iii.ix.html 2​

​

“… Theophylact: That is, the whole class of lunatics, or simply, of all persons possessed with devils. Both the man to be cured, and he who cures him, should fast; for a real prayer is offered up, when fasting is joined with prayer, when he who prays is sober and not heavy with food. …” - https://ccel.org/ccel/aquinas/catena2/catena2.iii.ix.html 2​

​

“… Bede: Further, 179 our Lord, while teaching the Apostles how the worst devil is to be expelled, gives all of us rules for our life; that is, He would have us know that all the more grievous attacks of evil spirits or of men are to be overcome by fastings and prayers; and again, that the anger of the Lord, when it is kindled for vengeance on our crimes, can be appeased by this remedy alone. …” - https://ccel.org/ccel/aquinas/catena2/catena2.iii.ix.html 2​

​

“… Pseudo-Jerome: Or else, the folly which is connected with the softness of the flesh, is healed by fasting; anger and laziness are healed by prayer. Each would has its own medicine, which must be applied to it; that which is used for the heel will not cure the eye; by fasting, the passions of the body, by prayer, the plagues of the soul, are healed. …” - https://ccel.org/ccel/aquinas/catena2/catena2.iii.ix.html 2​

​

Even the Douay Rheims has (which counters their Jerome's corrupted Vulgate):

Mar 9:29 (9:28) And he said to them: This kind can go out by nothing, but by prayer and fasting.​

​

This may be of help also:​

​

​

http://supernaturalresources.epizy.com/inspired-psalms-126-7-kjb/​

​

http://supernaturalresources.epizy.com/studies-in-the-scriptures-kjb-souls-salvation/​

​

​

 

[Scribe]

yes brother good stuff there the same principles always existed . The difference in the law and the Old Covenant and the gospel the new covenant is mans perception of God.

What i Mean is in the Old Testament this was their reaction when God spoke

“Now therefore why should we die? for this great fire will consume us: if we hear the voice of the Lord our God any more, then we shall die.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭5:25‬ ‭

do you see what I’m saying ? When we believe what Jesus has to say about God our perception changes from his word will surely kill us ....to this

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭

Many sadly still have the mindset of Horeb at Sinai about the sermon on the mount they think it will condemn them because it reveals the need for repentance within

Yes. It was not a good thing that that Moses had to put a veil over his face because they were afraid of the glory.

 

[Scribe]

were talking about the message the disciples were preaching . They were not preaching the death ,burial and resurrection. Besides the fact it hadn't happened yet ,they never understood it when Jesus told them . He told them so that AFTERWARDS they would remember his words . Jesus would not have been crucified if they had known .

They did not have to understand the details. Preaching that people should repent and believe the Good News that the Messiah who brings salvation has come was enough. Think about the prophetic utterances of Simeon and Anna when Jesus was presented in the temple. Their words were what they understood about the coming messiah and believing that Jesus was that one would still need to be preached today. We do not stop preaching about all those prophesies and how Jesus fulfilled them.

Those who believed that entered into the kingdom of heaven. While there would be more revelation of the mechanics behind how Christ would save the world, faith that he was the one prophesied, the King who would deliver Israel was enough to save them that believed.

We do preach the same message even though we can talk about the Cross and explain what Isaiah meant in chapter 53 as Philip did in Acts, even if they were preaching that people should repent and that the Messiah had arrived they were still preaching the Gospel and the promised Kingdom of God/heaven has a beginning of its prophesied fulfillment when John the Baptist and Jesus started preaching it.

To put faith in something that has not yet happened is sufficient when it comes to having faith in the promises of God. This good news carried by the feet of them that proclaim that the time has come for the Lord to make Zion's waste places like the Garden of Eden (Is 52) began with John the Baptist and those that believed were saved though Christ had not yet been crucified because that was a done deal from the foundation of the earth. Jesus declared them clean through his word.

It is a mystery and yet a little more simple than we may realize. I am not trying to argue with you, this is not really a disagreement. I just think that we are not comprehending the Gospel if we state that they did not preach the Gospel before the Cross when there are several scriptures that say they did.

Therefore we are trying too hard if we attempt to make a case for two Gospels one before the cross and one after. That is my opinion anyway. I have never really had this particular conversation before. These are just the thoughts that are coming to me as I think about the scriptures as I understand them so far.

 

[Scribe]

What you have just said is heresey and no Christian should have said what you just said .
Wrong . 21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
believe what ? Just Jesus ? no
1¶Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3¶For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

11Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.
12¶Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

Now did you notice that he said "according to the scriptures"? This means he used the Old Testament prophesies to show them that this was God's plan all along. He used scriptures from the OT to show that it was God's plan that the Messaiah would suffer and bleed, he showed them scriptures that he would be buried with the rich, he showed them scriptures that he would rise again the third day.

Therefore you must concede that it is possible to preach these Old Testament scriptures by Jesus and his disciples before the cross, and that they were putting their faith in the cross when as yet they did not realize exactly how it was going to be fulfilled. That is why it could be said.. "You are clean by my Word" and "rejoice that your names are written in heaven"
Yes all that he did, the death, burial and resurrection was necessary but one could have faith in that without even understanding it. The thief on the cross was saved by faith by believing that Jesus was the King as prophesied and he did not have to understand what all that meant.

 

[Scribe]

You

I haven't said no one was saved by Faith before the Cross .My point was simply that the disciples were not preaching the death ,burial and resurrection. They were not preaching that for the forgivness o f sins . They were preaching the kindgdom .

Yes, but the suggestion seems to be that we are not supposed to preach the Kingdom but instead the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

However I do not see any need to separate them. As a matter of fact if you separate the message of Jesus being the one that fulfills all the OT promises that the Jews in the first century were looking forward to and that understanding that they had concerning a future Kingdom, and if you do not include that message when you explain the meaning of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ you would not be preaching the Gospel the way they did after the Cross either.

The message of the Kingdom of God is the message of the Gospel. We look at how Peter, Stephen, Paul, Philip and of course Jesus on the road to Damascus preached from the Law and the Prophets explaining the entire Missio Dei (mission of God) as revealed in the entire redemptive story which involved Israel at a foundational level and we are preaching the true Gospel. We have to trace the promise of the Kingdom from the beginning prophesies such as Daniels messages about the Son of Man who would come and establish a kingdom that would fill the earth and that would usher in Israels restoration of a remnant who would be His People and He would be their God, and also the promise that He would be a light of the Gentiles, these promises in the OT are the best way to preach the Gospel.

When people do not use these promises and explain how Jesus fulfilled them they are not preaching the way Peter, Paul, Stephen, Phillip, and Jesus did. It is the same message before the cross but with more details about how the promises are fulfilled after the cross. They preached that the Messiah was the lamb of God come to take away the sins of the world. We do also. We know how, but they knew it was true even if they did not know how.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

They did not have to understand the details. Preaching that people should repent and believe the Good News that the Messiah who brings salvation has come was enough. Think about the prophetic utterances of Simeon and Anna when Jesus was presented in the temple. Their words were what they understood about the coming messiah and believing that Jesus was that one would still need to be preached today. We do not stop preaching about all those prophesies and how Jesus fulfilled them.

Those who believed that entered into the kingdom of heaven. While there would be more revelation of the mechanics behind how Christ would save the world, faith that he was the one prophesied, the King who would deliver Israel was enough to save them that believed.

We do preach the same message even though we can talk about the Cross and explain what Isaiah meant in chapter 53 as Philip did in Acts, even if they were preaching that people should repent and that the Messiah had arrived they were still preaching the Gospel and the promised Kingdom of God/heaven has a beginning of its prophesied fulfillment when John the Baptist and Jesus started preaching it.

To put faith in something that has not yet happened is sufficient when it comes to having faith in the promises of God. This good news carried by the feet of them that proclaim that the time has come for the Lord to make Zion's waste places like the Garden of Eden (Is 52) began with John the Baptist and those that believed were saved though Christ had not yet been crucified because that was a done deal from the foundation of the earth. Jesus declared them clean through his word.

It is a mystery and yet a little more simple than we may realize. I am not trying to argue with you, this is not really a disagreement. I just think that we are not comprehending the Gospel if we state that they did not preach the Gospel before the Cross when there are several scriptures that say they did.

Therefore we are trying too hard if we attempt to make a case for two Gospels one before the cross and one after. That is my opinion anyway. I have never really had this particular conversation before. These are just the thoughts that are coming to me as I think about the scriptures as I understand them so far.[/

Now did you notice that he said "according to the scriptures"? This means he used the Old Testament prophesies to show them that this was God's plan all along. He used scriptures from the OT to show that it was God's plan that the Messaiah would suffer and bleed, he showed them scriptures that he would be buried with the rich, he showed them scriptures that he would rise again the third day.

Therefore you must concede that it is possible to preach these Old Testament scriptures by Jesus and his disciples before the cross, and that they were putting their faith in the cross when as yet they did not realize exactly how it was going to be fulfilled. That is why it could be said.. "You are clean by my Word" and "rejoice that your names are written in heaven"
Yes all that he did, the death, burial and resurrection was necessary but one could have faith in that without even understanding it. The thief on the cross was saved by faith by believing that Jesus was the King as prophesied and he did not have to understand what all that meant.

“And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”
‭‭John‬ ‭17:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬


https://www.bible.com/1/jhn.17.3.kjv

You

Yes, but the suggestion seems to be that we are not supposed to preach the Kingdom but instead the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

However I do not see any need to separate them. As a matter of fact if you separate the message of Jesus being the one that fulfills all the OT promises that the Jews in the first century were looking forward to and that understanding that they had concerning a future Kingdom, and if you do not include that message when you explain the meaning of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ you would not be preaching the Gospel the way they did after the Cross either.

The message of the Kingdom of God is the message of the Gospel. We look at how Peter, Stephen, Paul, Philip and of course Jesus on the road to Damascus preached from the Law and the Prophets explaining the entire Missio Dei (mission of God) as revealed in the entire redemptive story which involved Israel at a foundational level and we are preaching the true Gospel. We have to trace the promise of the Kingdom from the beginning prophesies such as Daniels messages about the Son of Man who would come and establish a kingdom that would fill the earth and that would usher in Israels restoration of a remnant who would be His People and He would be their God, and also the promise that He would be a light of the Gentiles, these promises in the OT are the best way to preach the Gospel.

When people do not use these promises and explain how Jesus fulfilled them they are not preaching the way Peter, Paul, Stephen, Phillip, and Jesus did. It is the same message before the cross but with more details about how the promises are fulfilled after the cross. They preached that the Messiah was the lamb of God come to take away the sins of the world. We do also. We know how, but they knew it was true even if they did not know how.

you truly have good understanding of the scriptures I’m very glad to
Meet you and enjoy your posts when you let it flow like you are here you are surely a brother in Christ

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Now did you notice that he said "according to the scriptures"? This means he used the Old Testament prophesies to show them that this was God's plan all along. He used scriptures from the OT to show that it was God's plan that the Messaiah would suffer and bleed, he showed them scriptures that he would be buried with the rich, he showed them scriptures that he would rise again the third day.

Therefore you must concede that it is possible to preach these Old Testament scriptures by Jesus and his disciples before the cross, and that they were putting their faith in the cross when as yet they did not realize exactly how it was going to be fulfilled. That is why it could be said.. "You are clean by my Word" and "rejoice that your names are written in heaven"
Yes all that he did, the death, burial and resurrection was necessary but one could have faith in that without even understanding it. The thief on the cross was saved by faith by believing that Jesus was the King as prophesied and he did not have to understand what all that meant.

“And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:42-43‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭3:18-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

prophecy is about the lord Jesus indeed and his kingdom

 

[Scribe]

“And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:42-43‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭3:18-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

prophecy is about the lord Jesus indeed and his kingdom

A good discussion.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Yes. It was not a good thing that that Moses had to put a veil over his face because they were afraid of the glory.

“And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ.

But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart.

Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away.

But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭3:13-16, 18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Only in the gospel can we see his glory unveiled They never really saw who God is because of that veil .

in the gospel there is no veil so we’re hearing revelation of truth rather than a veiled carnal law. The same example is true with the veil which covered the entrance to the inner room no one could see in but the high priest once a year ....but Christ’s death tore the veil so we can see the glory

 

[Scribe]

“And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ.

But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart.

Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away.

But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭3:13-16, 18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Only in the gospel can we see his glory unveiled They never really saw who God is because of that veil .

in the gospel there is no veil so we’re hearing revelation of truth rather than a veiled carnal law. The same example is true with the veil which covered the entrance to the inner room no one could see in but the high priest once a year ....but Christ’s death tore the veil so we can see the glory

Sometimes I read this and I think about the grace that was available to them at that time if they would have come to him in faith. The fact that Moses face shown with the Glory of God should have made their hearts rejoice but their lack of faith caused them to fear.

Even today not only the unbelieving Jews but those that claim to know Christ may be guilty of a lack of faith and find no desire to fully surrender to all that God has for them. They are afraid to receive an experience of a filling of the Holy Spirit to speak the word of God boldly as they ought to speak. They are not really interested in any kind of Spiritual experience that God would love for them to have. They shrink back in fear of the supernatural. They shrink back in pride and fear of being labeled a fanatic if they were to allow God to use them in the gifts of the Spirit as written about in the book of Acts or 1 Corinthians. They are of that camp that "are glad" that these gifts ceased in the 1st century. They breath a sigh of relief and think in their hearts.. "whew... I am so glad those gifts ceased so that I don't have to operate in those gifts and look weird to people". These are those who would say to Moses... "cover your face" We don't want to experience any of that scary stuff.

 

[49]

Scribe and Pilgrimshope....Praise The Lord!!! Oh, if there were only more of this here!! Almost feel like it's listening to sermons at home!!

 

[MonicaLara]

ummm I’m rubber your glue , so let the blessing be on you 😃

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Sometimes I read this and I think about the grace that was available to them at that time if they would have come to him in faith. The fact that Moses face shown with the Glory of God should have made their hearts rejoice but their lack of faith caused them to fear.

Even today not only the unbelieving Jews but those that claim to know Christ may be guilty of a lack of faith and find no desire to fully surrender to all that God has for them. They are afraid to receive an experience of a filling of the Holy Spirit to speak the word of God boldly as they ought to speak. They are not really interested in any kind of Spiritual experience that God would love for them to have. They shrink back in fear of the supernatural. They shrink back in pride and fear of being labeled a fanatic if they were to allow God to use them in the gifts of the Spirit as written about in the book of Acts or 1 Corinthians. They are of that camp that "are glad" that these gifts ceased in the 1st century. They breath a sigh of relief and think in their hearts.. "whew... I am so glad those gifts ceased so that I don't have to operate in those gifts and look weird to people". These are those who would say to Moses... "cover your face" We don't want to experience any of that scary stuff.

yes it’s human nature since the deception and fall in Eden to be afraid of Gods word Thats the issue for
Mankind

“And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.

And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:8-10‬ ‭

everything changed when they heard Gods word “ you will surely die “ and say and word “ no you will not surely die “ mans nature changed with the knowledge of good and evil.

you see this same nature in those at Sinai terrified because it was terrifying even Moses exceedingly quaked with fear .....the gospel is about being born again having the perception and knowledge of Christ in his teachings because we believe the gospel. That belief of the gospel is essential to being born again

The understandings he taught is what changes us but we have to accept and believe it