The Natural Man

awelight · Sep 3, 2020

Several things wrong here....

In regards to "regeneration" (a Biblical term used twice, if memory serves and the word quickening), both refer to the new birth or being Born from Above", John 3:3-10.

Regeneration is the work of the Spirit and comes before faith. Faith is the product of regeneration (along with other things). The Christian walk is known as ones Conversion experience. We have these throughout our life. The first conversion experience, is laying hold of Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord.

You used the word "imputation", this is a legal term, used primarily in the context of Atonement. Which deals with sinners being Justified before God. The word "impartation", is where that which has been legally satisfied is then imparted to each one in time.

Indeed, God does have an appointed time for everything:

Ecc 3:1 For everything there is a season, and a time for every purpose under heaven:
Ecc 3:2 a time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
Ecc 3:3 a time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
Ecc 3:4 a time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
Ecc 3:5 a time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
Ecc 3:6 a time to seek, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
Ecc 3:7 a time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
Ecc 3:8 a time to love, and a time to hate; a time for war, and a time for peace.
The God-Given Task
Ecc 3:9 What profit hath he that worketh in that wherein he laboreth?
Ecc 3:10 I have seen the travail which God hath given to the sons of men to be exercised therewith.
Ecc 3:11 He hath made everything beautiful in its time: also he hath set eternity in their heart, yet so that man cannot find out the work that God hath done from the beginning even to the end.

14meatcc · Sep 3, 2020

awelight said:

Several things wrong here....

In regards to "regeneration" (a Biblical term used twice, if memory serves and the word quickening), both refer to the new birth or being Born from Above", John 3:3-10.

Regeneration is the work of the Spirit and comes before faith. Faith is the product of regeneration (along with other things). The Christian walk is known as ones Conversion experience. We have these throughout our life. The first conversion experience, is laying hold of Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord.

You used the word "imputation", this is a legal term, used primarily in the context of Atonement. Which deals with sinners being Justified before God. The word "impartation", is where that which has been legally satisfied is then imparted to each one in time.

Indeed, God does have an appointed time for everything:

Ecc 3:1 For everything there is a season, and a time for every purpose under heaven:
Ecc 3:2 a time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
Ecc 3:3 a time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
Ecc 3:4 a time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
Ecc 3:5 a time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
Ecc 3:6 a time to seek, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
Ecc 3:7 a time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
Ecc 3:8 a time to love, and a time to hate; a time for war, and a time for peace.
The God-Given Task
Ecc 3:9 What profit hath he that worketh in that wherein he laboreth?
Ecc 3:10 I have seen the travail which God hath given to the sons of men to be exercised therewith.
Ecc 3:11 He hath made everything beautiful in its time: also he hath set eternity in their heart, yet so that man cannot find out the work that God hath done from the beginning even to the end.

To be honest with you I don't even know alot about Calvin and TULIP and the details, but whatever laws and attributes andf things go with the Pauline Doctrine of Justification Solely by Faith I believe because I believe in that doctrine. What doctrine do you adhere to?

awelight · Sep 3, 2020

14meatcc said:

I don't really like labels, but guess you could call me a Free Grace man. It is similar in some respects to Calvin's teachings but doesn't go as far as Calvin went on many things, such as "Total Depravity". I do believe that salvation is all of God. He is the Creator and has the final say so over His Creation.

There is a problem with the "Reformers" idea of of Justification before God by Faith but as I have to leave now, maybe this discussion on another day. If you would like to hear it.

Iconoclast · Sep 3, 2020

throughfaith said:

Lol...you skipped the first two verses that explain it.
You really do not want truth at all.
I c

throughfaith said:

You skipped over the first two verses which explain it,lol no wonder you cannot find truth.

14meatcc · Sep 3, 2020

awelight said:

I don't really like labels, but guess you could call me a Free Grace man. It is similar in some respects to Calvin's teachings but doesn't go as far as Calvin went on many things, such as "Total Depravity". I do believe that salvation is all of God. He is the Creator and has the final say so over His Creation.

There is a problem with the "Reformers" idea of of Justification before God by Faith but as I have to leave now, maybe this discussion on another day. If you would like to hear it.

Sure, and I also believe salvation is ALL of God too. Ok we'll pick up later. Peace.

throughfaith · Sep 4, 2020

Iconoclast said:

1¶And I, BRETHEREN , COULD NOT SPEAK unto you as unto SPIRITUAL but as unto THE LOCAL MAN DOWN THE PUB even as unto babes in Christ.
BY THE WAY
16¶Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

jackrosie · Sep 4, 2020

throughfaith said:

A babe is still spiritual,you have just posted scripture that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you.....as a new babe all I understood was being born again,filled with the Holy Sorit,that dwelleth In ME!

That makes me spiritual..a child of the Lord...a relationship has begun,I am recognised by Him,that I am His Child....God is the one that opens up scripture to you as you grow and mature in Christ....every day is a new day.....we never stop learning.

Our Spirit has been made alive in Christ.....we are now spiritually connected to God,Through the Holy Spirit .

throughfaith · Sep 4, 2020

awelight said:

But heres the issue .
) Does Scripture teach being Chosen? YES ( Yes and we need to ask chosen for what ? to do what ?
2) Does Scripture teach Election? YES ( Elected for what? to do what ?
3) Does Scripture teach that there is God given Faith? YES ( Faith is mentioned in different ways and context. It does not say however we are given the faith in order to believe the Gospel. In spite of the outrageous mis use of Eph 2.8 .
4) Does Scripture teach Predestination? YES( Predestined for what ? )
5) Does God know the exact number of Believers in the end? YES( Knowledge is not causative . And God is not time bound . )
All of these issues are resolved by checking the 'buzz words ' Calvinsim triggers in people . Because each buzz word above has its own pre packaged doctrine which is assumed every time word pops up . But rather when such a word comes up like ' predestined ' Election ' , a good Bible student should not be afraid to ask " predestined for what?" Elected to do what " instead of the programmed response that you may have been exposed to .

jackrosie · Sep 4, 2020

throughfaith said:

But heres the issue .
) Does Scripture teach being Chosen? YES ( Yes and we need to ask chosen for what ? to do what ?
2) Does Scripture teach Election? YES ( Elected for what? to do what ?
3) Does Scripture teach that there is God given Faith? YES ( Faith is mentioned in different ways and context. It does not say however we are given the faith in order to believe the Gospel. In spite of the outrageous mis use of Eph 2.8 .
4) Does Scripture teach Predestination? YES( Predestined for what ? )
5) Does God know the exact number of Believers in the end? YES( Knowledge is not causative . And God is not time bound . )
All of these issues are resolved by checking the 'buzz words ' Calvinsim triggers in people . Because each buzz word above has its own pre packaged doctrine which is assumed every time word pops up . But rather when such a word comes up like ' predestined ' Election ' , a good Bible student should not be afraid to ask " predestined for what?" Elected to do what " instead of the programmed response that you may have been exposed to .

The answers are in the word of God....I ask the Lord to guide me through scripture...why did choose us...look to his word and for all the other questions.

Don’t expect everything to be revealed all at once.

throughfaith · Sep 4, 2020

1¶And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of SPEECH or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4And my SPEECHand my preaching was not with enticing WORDS of man's WISDOMbut in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5That your faith should not stand in the WISDOM OF men, but in the power of God.
6¶Howbeit we SPEAK WISDOM among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7But we SPEAK the WISDOM of God in a mystery, even the hidden WISDOM which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9¶But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10But God HATH REVEALED them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit SEARCHETH ALL things, yea, the DEEP THINGS of God.
11For what man knoweth THE THINGS of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the THINGS OF GOD knoweth no man, BUT THE SPIRIT of God.
12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we MIGHT !!!!!know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13¶Which THINGS also we SPEAK , not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost TEACHETH; COMPARING SPIRITUAL THINGS WITH SPIRITUAL .
14BUT the natural man RECEIETH not THE THINGS OF the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED .
15BUT he that is SPIRITUAL judgeth ALL THINGS , yet he himself is judged of no man.
16For WHO hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
1¶And I, BRETHEREN , COULD NOT SPEAK unto you as unto SPIRITUAL , but as unto CARNAL , even as unto babes in Christ.
2I have FED you with MILK and NOT with MEAT : for hitherto ye were NOT ABLE to bear it, NEITHER yet NOW are ye ABLE
3For YE ARE YET CARNAL : for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
5¶Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? ( above is Chapter 3 )

following on a few verses

16¶KNOW YE NOT that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
18¶Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
19For the WISDOMof this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the WISE in their own craftiness.

throughfaith · Sep 4, 2020

soggykitten said:

Not sure what you mean ?

throughfaith · Sep 4, 2020

awelight said:

EleventhHour made some very good points. The primary push of Paul's letter is to get the Corinthians to see, that there are many who are walking in the wisdom of the world. Some of these, I am sure, are unsaved people within the church and are having a negative effect on the babes in Christ. Confusing the minds and leading astray.

There are three types of "spiritual believers", that is to say, possess the indwelling Holy Spirit. ( Hopefully, we all understand the difference between the indwelling Spirit, which all believers have, and being baptized in the Spirit, which is not the same thing. )

Three types: Babes, Young men and Mature.

Yes, Gal. 6:1 is addressing a more mature member in the faith.

My point is that the 'natural man 'does not mean 'man without the Holy spirit .

throughfaith · Sep 4, 2020

ForestGreenCook said:

1 cor 14
37If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

37If any man think himself to be a prophet, or Saved , indwelt with the Holy Spirit, regenerated. let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

Gal 6.1
1¶Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

1¶Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are regenerated ,restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

G3824 - paliggenesia
G3824 - παλιγγενεσία
G3825 ››
‹‹ G3823
Transliteration: paliggenesia
Pronunciation: pä-len-ge-ne-se'-ä
Part of Speech: feminine noun
Root Word (Etymology): From πάλιν (G3825) and γένεσις (G1078)
TDNT Reference: 1:686,117
Outline of Biblical Usage:
new birth, reproduction, renewal, recreation, regeneration

hence renovation, regeneration, the production of a new life consecrated to God, a radical change of mind for the better. The word often used to denote the restoration of a thing to its pristine state, its renovation, as a renewal or restoration of life after death

the renovation of the earth after the deluge

throughfaith · Sep 4, 2020

awelight said:

1 cor 6
2Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

1cor 2.15

15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
hmmm?
1 cor 3
16¶Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. ??

1 cor 2.6
6¶Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect :MATURE ) yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

6¶Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect :MATURE ) yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
Mature v fleshy immature believers.

throughfaith · Sep 4, 2020

ForestGreenCook said:

He cannot know them without ...12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we MIGHT know the things that are freely given to us of God.

hebrews 5
11Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
12¶For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

No believers can understand these things unless the above happens.
it says we MIGHT KNOW THE THINGS know the things that are freely given to us of God. it doesn't say every believer automatically understands the things of God . ( this isn't about understanding the Gospel . This is about understanding mature things. verse 6 is key ) We are all the ' natural man ' we as believers will always have the ' natural man ' until glorification, ( romans 7 ) . its the Spirit of God that teaches spiritual things and that is How we understand mature things.
for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
But if we are behaving carnally like these in corinthians we cannot understand things either. UNABLE . unless we mature . Which is Pauls entire point . NOT " oh by the way the unsaved cannot believe the Gospel , so heads up evangelist team"
nor is Paul saying in chapter 3 . " I can't speak to you as saved people , but as unsaved men. , fancy a pint, did you see the game last week ? " .

jackrosie · Sep 4, 2020

Jude 1:17-20

A call to Persevere.

But,dear friends,remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold.
They said to you,In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.
These are the men who divide you,who follow mere NATURAL INSTINCTS and do not have the SPIRIT.
But you,dear friends,build yourselves up in the Holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit.
Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.

Iconoclast · Sep 4, 2020

throughfaith said:

As unto spiritual....think about it..

DiscipleA · Sep 4, 2020

Let's not keep this idea trapped whirling around in our heads, but let's let it out into the real world and make application of it. Let's make sure our ideas about God's Word are in harmony with the reality of God's creation. Ask yourself questions such as:
Can a person read and know what's in the Bible and not believe it?
Can a person hate God and hate the Bible and hate everything else but still believe things in the Bible?
Can a person who has never read the Bible still understand and believe things in the Bible?
Can a person with God's Spirit have less than perfect understanding?

No one understands everything in the Bible, and no one can understand nothing in the Bible.

fredoheaven · Sep 4, 2020

ForestGreenCook said:

Is the natural man here saved or not saved?

fredoheaven · Sep 4, 2020

awelight said:

It is highly important that ThroughFaith, can steer the understanding of 1 Cor. 2:14 away from this:

"what scripture is presumed to teach. " But the unsaved man cannot receive Jesus nor the Gospel of God:for it is foolishness unto him : neither can he know it ,because it is spiritually discerned. NSV ( Non scriptural version. )
Here we see this verse used to teach the Calvinstic idea of ' regeneration precedes faith ' And the T in TULIP . But let's look at what the verses actually say . "

Because if they teach what they clearly seem to say, then those in opposition to salvation being all of God, are once again in trouble. This is why we are having this circular discussion about this one area of Scripture, A discussion that on one side needs to prove, "natural man" means something other than what it does.

Whether you want to call it Calvinism or Free Grace, etc... there are too many Scriptures to ignore, or try to explain away. Why not just let Scripture speak and then do your best to harmonize these two great points of Salvation.

On one side:
1) Does Scripture teach being Chosen? YES
2) Does Scripture teach Election? YES
3) Does Scripture teach that there is God given Faith? YES
4) Does Scripture teach Predestination? YES
5) Does God know the exact number of Believers in the end? YES

On the other side:
1) Does Scripture teach that God demands everyone to Repent? YES
2) Does Scripture teach that the Gospel is offered to everyone without exception? YES

Finally, Does Scripture teach that God takes no pleasure in pouring out His Wrath? YES

NOW, Harmonize these facts, without doing damage to either.

But where is the scripture? Thanks

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