What 3 verses say that a lost man cannot believe the gospel?

[Lion222]

True faith produces works

But a person is saved before he did one work.

What you Posted Was faith plus works

The correct sequence should be

Faith - eternal salvation - works which proceed From true faith

So Abraham was declared righteous before He got up that morning?

 

[Lion222]

So Abraham was declared righteous before He God up that morning?

His believing God did not exist until after his actions came into play.
Or better to say they where not attributed until after
We are not righteous based on intent.

 

[Lion222]

Treasure found in a field, treasure beyond measure.
Cant earn such treasure, no amount of work can buy it.
But the field that it is hidden in, that you can buy and in doing so you make it yours.
The price of that field - your everything.

Abraham's everything was Issac.
And in making ready and sacrificing his all, he believe in the treasure of God hidden in that field would still be there for him.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So Abraham was declared righteous before He got up that morning?

Abraham was declared righteous when god made him a promise and he believed, Gen 15: 6

he did his works after this

why do you want to earn a gift if I may ask?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

His believing God did not exist until after his actions came into play.
Or better to say they where not attributed until after
We are not righteous based on intent.

Wrong

his actions did not come to play until he-believed

rom 4 makes this clear

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Treasure found in a field, treasure beyond measure.
Cant earn such treasure, no amount of work can buy it.
But the field that it is hidden in, that you can buy and in doing so you make it yours.
The price of that field - your everything.

Abraham's everything was Issac.
And in making ready and sacrificing his all, he believe in the treasure of God hidden in that field would still be there for him.

Yet abraham was declaired righteous decided before isaac was even born

 

[posthuman]

Incorrect we have X = X

A lost man can hear the gospel and respond, believing what he heard is truth .. and God will give him eternal life

The believing come to belief by hearing the message of the Gospel and responding, they enter through the narrow gate, God does not drag them through.

let X = {the unbelieving} and let Y = {the believing}
proposition: X ∩ Y = ∅

proof:
suppose ∃k: k ∈ X ∩ Y
then k both believes and does not believe, and by John 3:18 k is both not condemned and condemned already.
by James 1:7-8, k receives nothing from the Lord.
by John 3:14-16, k receives eternal life.
therefore k has eternal life, but not really.
it follows that k does not believe, by 1 John 5:10-13, so k ∉ Y
this implies k ∉ X ∩ Y, therefore X ∩ Y = ∅

QED

therefore there must be some transformation G:X → Y or else there is no salvation.

 

[posthuman]

G(X) is a transformation which maps unbelievers, X, to believers, Y.

tell me more about G(X) ...

is every x in X mapped to a y in Y? ((is G(X) entire?))
for every y in Y, is there an x in X that is mapped to it? ((is G(X) onto?))
for every y in Y that has an x in X mapped to it, is there only one such x in X? ((is G(X) one to one?))

 

[posthuman]

is every x in X mapped to a y in Y? ((is G(X) entire?))
for every y in Y, is there an x in X that is mapped to it? ((is G(X) onto?))
for every y in Y that has an x in X mapped to it, is there only one such x in X? ((is G(X) one to one?))

here is what these are asking:

• is G(X) entire?
  • are all unbelievers transformed into believers, i.e. universal salvation?
• is G(X) onto?
  • are there believers who were never unbelievers?
• is G(X) 1:1?
  • does every transformed unbeliever become an unique believer, or do some unbelievers become the same believer?
    

i'll tackle the easy one; number 3.
yes, G(X) is one to one, by Revelation 2:17 -- every y ∈ Y receives a name known only to themselves, therefore each name is unique, therefore each saved believer is unique -- yes, God preserves the soul.

what about the other 2 properties of the transformation from death to life we're calling G(X)?

 

[Lion222]

Wrong

his actions did not come to play until he-believed

rom 4 makes this clear

Romans 4 is about justification by the law not doing the job.
But it clearly says
but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham (that being his works of faith in action)

Gen 22:12
Do not lay a hand on the boy or do anything to him,” said the angel, “for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your only son from me.

 

[Lion222]

Yet abraham was declaired righteous decided before isaac was even born

OT Chapter and verse please.
I would argue that also can include the aforementioned offering of Isaac in the context as part of his expectant faith to receive the promise, not just the promise of a child in old age, but the promise of the lineage of the Christ in that child that we was about to kill.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Romans 4 is about justification by the law not doing the job.
But it clearly says
but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham (that being his works of faith in action)

Gen 22:12
Do not lay a hand on the boy or do anything to him,” said the angel, “for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your only son from me.

Nope, Rom 4 is about Paul not being found by works but by grace

you can’t mix the two they would cancel the other out

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

works has no part in our salvation

2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

Titus 3: 5
not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
why are you going to Gen 22? Abraham was found righteous in Gen 15. Gen 22 is a result of his faith, he was saved in Gen 15

 

[eternally-gratefull]

here is what these are asking:

• is G(X) entire?
  • are all unbelievers transformed into believers, i.e. universal salvation?
• is G(X) onto?
  • are there believers who were never unbelievers?
• is G(X) 1:1?
  • does every transformed unbeliever become an unique believer, or do some unbelievers become the same believer?

i'll tackle the easy one; number 3.
yes, G(X) is one to one, by Revelation 2:17 -- every y ∈ Y receives a name known only to themselves, therefore each name is unique, therefore each saved believer is unique -- yes, God preserves the soul.

what about the other 2 properties of the transformation from death to life we're calling G(X)?

As with all math everything must fit.

your math fits your belief, but it does not mean it fits reality, it only works if you are correct, otherwise it falls on its face

 

[eternally-gratefull]

OT Chapter and verse please.
I would argue that also can include the aforementioned offering of Isaac in the context as part of his expectant faith to receive the promise, not just the promise of a child in old age, but the promise of the lineage of the Christ in that child that we was about to kill.

I already gave it to you. Paul and James both quote it,

Gen 15: 6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

 

[Duskey]

Yes, to transform their lives into the image and likeness of Christ Jesus.

And for salvation.

 

[Duskey]

Abraham was declared righteous when god made him a promise and he believed, Gen 15: 6

he did his works after this

why do you want to earn a gift if I may ask?

It pains me that some people refuse to accept the simplicity of God’s grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[Grandpa]

Nope

God can help those who are perishing to understand, and through that chose. He helped me when I was perishing, And by drawing me to him and the HS convicting me of sin righteousness and judgment, brought me to the point I could chose to recieve him as the tax collector. Or to reject him like the pagan or pharisee

it in no way PROVES regeneration precedes justification, only by your interpretation, which is what the op was asking for,

Let me ask you a serious question.

Did you ever REALLY think that the story of Christ's crucifixion and subsequent resurrection was foolishness?

Of all the foolish things I have done in my life I don't ever remember thinking that the story of Christ or any biblical story was foolish.

From a very young age all the way to now.

 

[posthuman]

As with all math everything must fit.

your math fits your belief, but it does not mean it fits reality, it only works if you are correct, otherwise it falls on its face

these are just questions, in the post you're quoting, and all i'm doing is using the language of algebra to say that there is salvation for those who believe, and condemnation for those who do not. look up all the verses i put -- i'm not eisegeting, i'm just putting scripture together in a structured way to see what conclusions can be drawn -- which is why, i cited several scriptures to justify very basic tenets of our faith, then asked some questions, not declared some opinion by fiat.

if you don't understand some of it, i'd be happy to explain. but yes, i am trying secretly to turn everyone into mathematicians. i consider it valuable. God created mathematics, and the cosmos He created is written in the language of it.

in this thread in particular, maybe an algebraic approach would be an useful tool so that people wouldn't be just shouting opinions they can't substantiate. mathematics is a language of substantiated statement; if you can't justify it fully, you don't say it. that is very different from the usual BDF methodology

 

[Grandpa]

these are just questions, in the post you're quoting, and all i'm doing is using the language of algebra to say that there is salvation for those who believe, and condemnation for those who do not. look up all the verses i put -- i'm not eisegeting, i'm just putting scripture together in a structured way to see what conclusions can be drawn -- which is why, i cited several scriptures to justify very basic tenets of our faith, then asked some questions, not declared some opinion by fiat.

if you don't understand some of it, i'd be happy to explain. but yes, i am trying secretly to turn everyone into mathematicians. i consider it valuable. God created mathematics, and the cosmos He created is written in the language of it.

in this thread in particular, maybe an algebraic approach would be an useful tool so that people wouldn't be just shouting opinions they can't substantiate. mathematics is a language of substantiated statement; if you can't justify it fully, you don't say it. that is very different from the usual BDF approach

The original question is kind of leading....

Everyone who is Saved was once lost...

But the act of believing the Gospel proves you are no longer lost.

So do the lost believe the Gospel? No.

Can they in the future? Who knows? We don't know who is going to believe and who is not going to.

 

[EleventhHour]

let X = {the unbelieving} and let Y = {the believing}
proposition: X ∩ Y = ∅

proof:
suppose ∃k: k ∈ X ∩ Y
then k both believes and does not believe, and by John 3:18 k is both not condemned and condemned already.
by James 1:7-8, k receives nothing from the Lord.
by John 3:14-16, k receives eternal life.
therefore k has eternal life, but not really.
it follows that k does not believe, by 1 John 5:10-13, so k ∉ Y
this implies k ∉ X ∩ Y, therefore X ∩ Y = ∅

QED

therefore there must be some transformation G:X → Y or else there is no salvation.

I know my math.. but your non-biblical presuppositions are still in the way.