Chosen by God - A study in Election

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cv5 said:
Sorry, but that's not a defense of your position. That is just an exit strategy.

Anyone else care to quote Scripture that indicates the supremacy of man's will as it pertains to salvation?
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Supremacy no but Gods will permits a choice.

Mt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
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cv5 said:
Yes. Always. When God wants to accomplish His purposes they never fail. No need for me to quote Scripture everyone knows them. I don't think anyone wants to argue that point.

The problem for unbelievers is that God can limit his Will, His power, His grace. And He has every right to do this also. Example: God can simply withhold his lovingkindness and bring no rain.

Rom 9:15
For He says to Moses: "I will show mercy to whom I may show mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I may have compassion."
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Is it God's will for you to sin? Do all believers live out the following?

16 Rejoice evermore.
17 Pray without ceasing.
18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
 
This is to my Father’s Glory,that you bear much fruit,showing yourselves to be my disciples.

When you produce much fruit,you are my true disciples.
This brings great glory to my Father.

By this my Father is glorified,that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples.

Herein is my Father glorified,that you bear much fruit,so you will be my disciples.
 
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John146 said:
Reigns supreme? Another feeble attempt...

What about the dozens and dozens of verses stating that man must believe? The word believe indicates choice.
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Thank you. If you have time please go ahead and add these Scriptures to the thread for the benefit of the board.
 
John146 said:
Is it God's will for you to sin? Do all believers live out the following?

16 Rejoice evermore.
17 Pray without ceasing.
18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
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My request for Scriptures was specific to man's will as it pertains to salvation. Let's try and limit ourselves to this for now.

Man's will as it pertains to salvation. We can dwell on post salvation verses later.
 
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cv5 said:
My request for Scriptures was specific to man's will as it pertains to salvation. Let's try and limit ourselves to this for now.

Man's will as it pertains to salvation. We can dwell on post salvation verses later.
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You said God's will always occurs. But now only when it comes to salvation?
 
John146 said:
You said God's will always occurs. But now only when it comes to salvation?
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I detect a consistent pattern of dodging bobbing weaving sidestepping and dancing a jig as it relates to this particular question. I'm just asking for the facts no more no less.

If you please and if you have time and if you don't mind can you post some Scriptures that relate to mans will as it relates to salvation? I for one would really appreciate it and many others are looking forward to it as well. Thank you.
 
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cv5 said:
I detect a consistent pattern of dodging bobbing weaving sidestepping and dancing a jig as it relates to this particular question. I'm just asking for the facts no more no less.

If you please and if you have time and if you don't mind can you post some Scriptures that relate to mans will as it relates to salvation? I for one would really appreciate it and many others are looking forward to it as well. Thank you.
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This is just the book of Acts. Should I continue through Paul's epistles?
  1. Acts 2:44
    And all that believed were together, and had all things common;

  2. Acts 4:4
    Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.

  3. Acts 4:32
    And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.

  4. Acts 5:14
    And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.)

  5. Acts 8:12
    But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

  6. Acts 8:13
    Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

  7. Acts 8:37
    And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

  8. Acts 9:42
    And it was known throughout all Joppa; and many believed in the Lord.

  9. Acts 10:43
    To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

  10. Acts 11:17
    Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

  11. Acts 11:21
    And the hand of the Lord was with them: and a great number believed, and turned unto the Lord.

  12. Acts 13:12
    Then the deputy, when he saw what was done, believed, being astonished at the doctrine of the Lord.

  13. Acts 13:39
    And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.


  14. Acts 14:1
    And it came to pass in Iconium, that they went both together into the synagogue of the Jews, and so spake, that a great multitude both of the Jews and also of the Greeks believed.

  15. Acts 14:23
    And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.

  16. Acts 15:7
    And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

  17. Acts 15:11
    But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

  18. Acts 16:1
    Then came he to Derbe and Lystra: and, behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timotheus, the son of a certain woman, which was a Jewess, and believed; but his father was a Greek:
 
John146 said:
This is just the book of Acts. Should I continue through Paul's epistles?
  1. Acts 2:44
    And all that believed were together, and had all things common;

  2. Acts 4:4
    Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.

  3. Acts 4:32
    And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.

  4. Acts 5:14
    And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.)

  5. Acts 8:12
    But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

  6. Acts 8:13
    Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

  7. Acts 8:37
    And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

  8. Acts 9:42
    And it was known throughout all Joppa; and many believed in the Lord.

  9. Acts 10:43
    To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

  10. Acts 11:17
    Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

  11. Acts 11:21
    And the hand of the Lord was with them: and a great number believed, and turned unto the Lord.

  12. Acts 13:12
    Then the deputy, when he saw what was done, believed, being astonished at the doctrine of the Lord.

  13. Acts 13:39
    And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.


  14. Acts 14:1
    And it came to pass in Iconium, that they went both together into the synagogue of the Jews, and so spake, that a great multitude both of the Jews and also of the Greeks believed.

  15. Acts 14:23
    And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.

  16. Acts 15:7
    And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

  17. Acts 15:11
    But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

  18. Acts 16:1
    Then came he to Derbe and Lystra: and, behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timotheus, the son of a certain woman, which was a Jewess, and believed; but his father was a Greek:
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Excellent thank you.
So the questions I have to ask is:

Was God in any way active in producing this belief? Was it fully the will of man, or fully the will of God, or a combination of both?

Is the faith to believe generated in and of ourselves, fully and completely as an act of our own
will? Or is it an act of God's will or a combination of both?

Is God, as creator, actively engaged in this instantaneous process of spiritual rebirth, or are fallen, spiritually dead men, by an act of their own will rebirthing themselves?
 
cv5 said:
Excellent thank you.
So the questions I have to ask is:

Was God in any way active in producing this belief? Was it fully the will of man, or fully the will of God, or a combination of both?

Is the faith to believe generated in and of ourselves, fully and completely as an act of our own
will? Or is it an act of God's will or a combination of both?

Is God, as creator, actively engaged in this instantaneous process of spiritual rebirth, or are fallen, spiritually dead men, by an act of their own will rebirthing themselves?
Click to expand...

If God willed me to believe, then I didn't believe. Forced belief is not true belief. The Holy Spirit can draw a seeking man to see the truth, but it is up to the man to receive it or reject it.
 
throughfaith said:
Yes we see this with Paul ( in time ) where it was Gods will for Paul to go to a place and that finally was pris

its Gods will that we SHOULD walk in good works ( Eph 2 ,10 ) but clearly not all believers DO .But its says He ordained BEFORE that we should walk in them .
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Gotcha! And thanks!
 
John146 said:
If God willed me to believe, then I didn't believe. Forced belief is not true belief. The Holy Spirit can draw a seeking man to see the truth, but it is up to the man to receive it or reject it.
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Thats your opinion only.

However, please demonstrate from the Scriptures the following phenomenon:

1) Does God EVER extoll, credit, commend or glorify ANY person who believes for their choice or decision? Please include relevant Scriptures.

2) Does PAUL or PETER ever extoll, credit, commend or glorify ANY person who believes for their choice or decision? Please include relevant Scriptures.

3) do these people, who of their own supposed express will to believe, share a degree of glory with God for this act or work? Do they share credit for their rebirth, regeneration and salvation?
 
cv5 said:
1) Does God EVER extoll, credit, commend or glorify ANY person who believes for their choice or decision? Please include relevant Scriptures.
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Yes, He gives them everlasting life.:)

Whosoever believeth in him, should not perish but have everlasting life.
 
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cv5 said:
3) do these people, who of their own supposed express will to believe, share a degree of glory with God for this act or work? Do they share credit for their rebirth, regeneration and salvation?
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Nope. We are thankful for God's grace that He has provided a way unto salvation.
 
John146 said:
If God willed me to believe, then I didn't believe. Forced belief is not true belief. The Holy Spirit can draw a seeking man to see the truth, but it is up to the man to receive it or reject it.
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You really aren’t understanding what cv5 is saying...how can God force you to believe,if it’s his will?

If God draws you to his truth,then naturally you will believe,because God opens the heart,for us to receive the Holy Spirit....as it was predestined,he knew me before I was born.

After all God knows what’s best for us....he knows everything.

His will is perfect.
 
jackrosie said:
You really aren’t understanding what cv5 is saying...how can God force you to believe,if it’s his will?

If God draws you to his truth,then naturally you will believe,because God opens the heart,for us to receive the Holy Spirit....as it was predestined,he knew me before I was born.

After all God knows what’s best for us....he knows everything.

His will is perfect.
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He's not willing that any should perish, but people perish everyday. Salvation in Christ is best for everybody, but not everybody believes.

Btw, predestination has nothing to do with a person getting saved. Predestination is a doctrine to those already saved. It's receiving the future redemption of the body, the adoption.
 
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John146 said:
He's not willing that any should perish, but people perish everyday. Salvation in Christ is best for everybody, but not everybody believes.

Btw, predestination has nothing to do with a person getting saved. Predestination is a doctrine to those already saved. It's receiving the future redemption of the body, the adoption.
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Romans 8:29

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son.
that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

So disagree with you.
 
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