"God loves everyone" - false
- Thread starter DBurrage
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
E
EleventhHour
Guest
Total inability is not seen in scripture.
Paul is not stating that man is unable to seek God, but they should and do not when read in context of Romans 1 20-21 who is revealed in creation.
It is clear in various passages that many do and seek God.
God rewards those who diligently seek Him (Heb 11:6)
Paul talking to the men of Athens
26 And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place,
27 that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us,
Acts 17:26-27
Yes, it is our hope.
All who put their hope in Him purify themselves just as He is pure.
Let us consider the kindness and severity of God and continue in our faith as those who neglect nothing of this great salvation.
Let us rather conduct ourselves in fear during our stay on this earth, make our calling and election sure and strive to lay hold of that which Christ Jesus laid hold of us for. Our holiness and godliness, is the very purpose of the Gospel.
I am really surprised you chose these verses to make your point. Even within the context it proves that man is BLIND, spiritually speaking.
Act 17:25-26 neither is he served by men's hands, as though he needed anything, seeing he himself giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; and he made of one every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed seasons, and the bounds of their habitation; (This portion proves the Sovereignty of God. All things come from Him. If He is providing: Life, breath and ALL things, plus determines the length of ones life and sets the boundaries of nations..... Then we must ask, "Why do you think God would relinquish control over salvation?) Does this even make good common sense?
(27,28) that they should seek God, if haply they might feel after him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us: for in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain even of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. "If haply they might "feel" after Him...." You can feel the sarcasm in this phrase. It denotes a blind understanding of God, in which even a spiritually dead person might be able to determine the existence of God. Which is in the immediate context. The discussion here has nothing to do with salvation. It's about the existence of God, which even a blind man should be able to find through that which God gives in creation and to everyone in their existence.
The above portion of the speech was followed by this statement, and this explains it all. The time of the previous verses, 25-28, were the times of ignorance:
Act 17:30 The times of ignorance therefore God overlooked; but now he commandeth men that they should all everywhere repent:
Alright, some meat in an answer finally.
What you have stated about the verb, ἀγαπάω, is correct, however you cannot give a single explanation for it's meaning throughout all of Scripture. ἀγαπάω and it's various forms, carry, like our english words, many different understandings, which are determined by the context of their usage. Therefore ἀγαπάω, cannot mean an intimate relationship in all passages of Scripture.
As an example, let's look at how we use the word "love" in our language. These would not constitute an "intimate relationship":
- I love a bright sunny day. (You can't mean an intimate relationship with sunny days)
- I wish it would rain, I just love the sound of it hitting the roof. (You can't mean an intimate relationship with sound)
- I always give an expression of my love to everyone I meet. (You can't mean an intimate relationship with everyone you meet or at least you better not mean it in this way.)
That is what Christ did with the rich young man, He gave him an expression of love. The Lord expressed compassion and concern.
Here are a few examples now from Scripture, where the meaning cannot mean an intimate relationship.
- Gen 27:4 and make me savory food, such as I love, and bring it to me, that I may eat; that my soul may bless thee before I die.
- Mat 22:39 And a second like unto it is this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. (We must be very careful here),
This is the sense, in which Christ loved the rich young man:
- Rom 13:10 Love is working no ill to his neighbor: love therefore is the fulfillment of the law,
This verse is the sense of an intimate relationship:
Rom 8:38,39 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
All of theses verses, except the first one, uses the Greek word: ἀγαπάω or one of it's forms. So, I fail to see your point.
Oh brother,
The same ole statements, ignoring Scripture again. Okay.... one more time.
The proof:
Rom 11:5,6 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. But if it is by grace, it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.
Eph 2:4,5 but God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved)
Eph 2:8-10 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9 not of works, that no man should glory.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God before prepared that we should walk in them.
There are many, many more and you know this. Do I need to explain these verse? I think not. They are self explanatory... just take the words for what they say. These few verses clearly teach: 1) Grace in Election, 2) Grace is not a work, 3) Grace is a demonstration of God's love, 4) Grace is a saving grace, 5) Faith is a gift of grace, 6) That the elect are a workmanship in Christ and 7) God prepared this Grace before hand.
How is this twisting anything? The real question is..... Are you unteachable and do you have all knowledge?
Besides these things then what is John 3:3-10 teaching then, if this is not enabling grace?
I believe all those verses . No one would come up with ' enabling grace , irresistible/ previenient Or any other add on ,from just reading the bible . John Calvin certainly did not . He got it from Augustine .
Irresistible grace to me has always sounded like rape.
So I consider it a maligning of the name and character of God.
I am of the opinion that many are called but few are chosen.
That it has always been both our free will and His occasional choice of a few for himself, much like he keeps for Himself a remnant.
God being God can choose to knock you off your horse and blind you and choose you for himself by doing so even though you are His ignorant enemy.
That who so ever will may come when hearing the Gospel, because he desires all to come to repentance is just as true as Gods right to choose a few for himself.
But I think Gods choice of some is more like it was for Paul. Smacking a fool and making his wise to who God really is.
I do not accept that God forces his love on anyone, just wakes up those who would choose it for themselves anyway if only they knew the truth.
I think that predestination was done in Gods foreknowledge at creation. Peter seems to agree.
It is Not that a man seeking God with a heart pleasing to him is denied because God did not predestine or want him.
God Predestining all of us to our outcome, making some for honorable and the others for dishonorable was done the moment he made Adam and all of us in him.
If you lawn is overgrown and it is because you can NOT afford a new lawnmower and I show you grace and buy you one you could never afford and you receive it with gratitude as it is delivered to your garage. Then next week I stop by and see the grass is twice as high as it was before I bought you the new lawnmower. You come out to great me and thank me for giving you everything you need for proper lawn maintenance. But if you neglect the gift are you not worse then the one who never received it in the first place?
How will you escape the judgement of the eyes of the one who sacrificed to give it to you?
This is how the Gospel is twisted into another Gospel that the apostle never preached.
Then when you dare say you must use the gift, put it to work or it is worthless to you, they foolishly cry. But it was free I don't have to do anything to pay for it.
They deny the very purpose of the Gift, the very purpose of the Gospel.
For in Christ Jesus we have been given all things pertaining to life and godliness.
Are you living the life?
How is your godliness coming along?
You see one must work out their salvation, that they where freely given if they want to benefit from that free gift.
Work it out diligently and carefully and make full use of it considering how much it cost and that it was given freely to such as us.
How will we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? - Heb 2:3
Notice it does NOT say how will they escape.
It is speaking to those who have salvation.
One usually must have something to neglect it.
Neglect, much like the parable of the coins and the man who buried his rather then put it to WORK.
Notice it does NOT say how will they escape.
It is speaking to those who have salvation.
One usually must have something to neglect it.
Neglect, much like the parable of the coins and the man who buried his rather then put it to WORK.
You said, " No one would come up with ' enabling grace , irresistible/ previenient Or any other add on ,from just reading the bible"
That is not true at all. A complete and total falsehood on your part sir.
To begin with, it is implied in Eph. 2:4,5: ... "even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved"). Made alive because we were dead. That which is DEAD cannot make itself ALIVE. This would be a foolish notion. If one believes contrary to this, then ones understanding and logic is as flawed as Nicodemus' was. To proceed from a spiritually DEAD state, to a spiritually ALIVE state, would take an "enabling grace". That which is spiritually dead cannot understand spiritual things, even if they have been apart of "religion" for many years. Just like Nicodemus.
If a "dead in spirit sinner", is at the bottom of the pit of destruction and a lifeline is thrown to him, in the person of Jesus Christ, how can he grab it, if he is dead. A dead person cannot SEE are HEAR are physically react to the lifeline. Correct? Or do you have some other meaning for what a dead person can or cannot do?
This I suppose, is why you did not answer my question about John 3:3-10. I will. First, let's establish what took place before verse 3.
Nicodemus came to see Jesus at "night" because he did not want his fellow religionist seeing him talking to Jesus. He knew Jesus as a Rabbi, Teacher and that God was with Him, however he did not see him as Savior, The God-Man or The Son. Why? He was spiritually dead. Now this sets the context of our Lord's words.
This clearly teaches the need for an enabling form of Grace:
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Here Jesus speaks in Kingdom language but to understand Jesus as Savior and gain entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven/of God, the principle is the same.
John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Nicodemus expresses his spiritual ignorance.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Jesus repeats this need for a spiritual awakening. Also, in Scripture called the quickening. In Theological circles, called Regeneration.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Jesus qualifies His announcement, to show that "flesh" cannot give birth to that which is spirit. Only the Holy Spirit can give birth to that which is spirit. By interpretation, only The Holy Spirit, can make one spiritually alive.
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born anew.
As Nicodemus was in a spiritually dead state, he was shocked by this proclamation and understood it not. Just as many "religionist" do not today.
John 3:8 The wind is blowing where it will, and thou are hearing the voice thereof, but are not knowing from where it comes, and where it going: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Jesus gives an illustration of how the Holy Spirit goes about this work. He goes to those he wills (this would be linked to passages in John Ch. 6 and 10 and 17), the one he is working on hears the voice but cannot tell where He came from or where He is going.
John 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
Always the reaction of the spiritually dead individual.
John 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou the teacher of Israel, and are not understanding these things?
Finally, Nicodemus is criticized by Jesus Christ because he is in the position of a teacher but is ignorant of how salvation works.
It is a dangerous thing to be placed as a teacher and be responsible for teaching error. If I am wrong in my teachings and cause others to err, then I will be held accountable. Not in the way of my "position" in Christ but in my "condition" and later, when I stand before Christ for rewards or loss thereof. I take what I say seriously.
Now sir, you seem somewhat learned, so why are you ignoring these things?
The rest of John 3, all they way to verse 21, is a continuation of the conversation Jesus is having with Nicodemus. Let us never forget, Jesus is speaking to a religious teacher who is spiritually unable to comprehend these things.
Because of your answer, I would gather you do not believe in "Limited Atonement". Correct?
As to working out ones Salvation, this speaks to ones "Condition" and not ones "Position". Therefore, we "should" work out our Salvation, in order to receive the full blessings of our calling but if we do not fully apply ourselves, it will not change our "Position" in Christ.
What so
Eph 2.5 comes after Eph 1.13-14 which explains Eph 2 5. Then Eph 2.8+9 confirms it .
////If a "dead in spirit sinner", is at the bottom of the pit of destruction and a lifeline is thrown to him, in the person of Jesus Christ, how can he grab it, if he is dead. A dead person cannot SEE are HEAR are physically react to the lifeline. Correct? Or do you have some other meaning for what a dead person can or cannot do?///// The issue here is we are not physically dead . Thats were calvinism goes weird on us . Physically dead people ,don't hold jobs , pay taxes , get married ,have children, believe things , fly aeroplanes, build rockets , invent things , create medicines, become doctors, lawyers ,teachers , follow religions, believe in the Quran , the book of Mormon, ride bikes and go fishing .
Eph. 1:13&14 are not even in the immediate context. Chapter 1, ends in verse 23, the basic subject under discussion changed in verse 15.
I don't get your point in the Eph: 8&9 ref. It would be helpful, if sometimes, you could answer in more than one or two sentences.
This is what I meant in the other post about trying to be clever. Along with my other complaints about a reasonable conversation.
Look at what you said here:
////If a "dead in spirit sinner", is at the bottom of the pit of destruction and a lifeline is thrown to him, in the person of Jesus Christ, how can he grab it, if he is dead. A dead person cannot SEE are HEAR are physically react to the lifeline. Correct? Or do you have some other meaning for what a dead person can or cannot do?/////
The above is what I said. Anyone who reads this would see that this is an analogy. I defined it up front, with the statement, "dead in spirit sinner" For the rest of the analogy, the person has to be physical because the "lifeline" concept, in this case, is a physical line or rope. Obviously, Christ is not a line or a rope.
You then responded by saying:
The issue here is we are not physically dead . Thats were calvinism goes weird on us . Physically dead people ,don't hold jobs , pay taxes , get married ,have children, believe things , fly aeroplanes, build rockets , invent things , create medicines, become doctors, lawyers ,teachers , follow religions, believe in the Quran , the book of Mormon, ride bikes and go fishing .
The above response is foolish and unhelpful to anyone. Look at this ridiculous conclusion, you said: The issue here is we are not physically dead . Thats were calvinism goes weird on us.
When did Calvin or anybody else claim we were physically dead. No one is that childishly stupid, to claim dead people are walking around on this world, unless we have changed gears to the Zombie Apocalypse.
This is nothing more than an attempt to dodge the real issue.
Limited what?
Yes, you can fail to fully apply yourself but you will end up suffering loss in regards to your salvation and end up being saved as through fire.