Is the teaching of Jesus before His crucifixion only for Jews?

[Blik]

Whenever the discussion is of determining if God's directions is to Jews, to gentiles, or to both we need to understand why and how God created the Jews.

Abraham was a gentile. His father Terah was a maker of idols that he sold. Through Abraham God created the Hebrew race because at that time all people were idol worshippers. The knowledge of God had died out. Abraham was made a Hebrew to show the world the true God. It was for the sake of the gentile that the Jewish race was created.

 

[Kolistus]

The church at Corinth are believers in the body of Christ at Corinth. Doctrine to the body of Christ is good for any one in the body of Christ.

Christians are not members of the twelve tribes of Israel for there is no Jew or gentile in Christ.

Paul says the Torah is for us to learn from

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

Romans 15:4
For everything that was written in the past was written for our instruction, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures, we might have hope.

Originally written to Israel, most of it, (excluding Noah etc gentiles) yet its to us today.

ALL Scripture is for us to learn from, despite not being addressed to us.

The Gospel of Luke is to ONE PERSON only, so according to your logic no one should read it. Its written to the gentile Theophilus, are we stealing someones mail?

 

[John146]

Paul says the Torah is for us to learn from

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

Romans 15:4
For everything that was written in the past was written for our instruction, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures, we might have hope.

Originally written to Israel, most of it, (excluding Noah etc gentiles) yet its to us today.

ALL Scripture is for us to learn from, despite not being addressed to us.

The Gospel of Luke is to ONE PERSON only, so according to your logic no one should read it. Its written to the gentile Theophilus, are we stealing someones mail?

Agreed, we can learn about God and how he dealt with man before the cross. But doctrine, specifically what we are to do, is most found in Paul’s thirteen epistles.

James is specifically addressed to the twelve tribes, and I believe, the Jews in the last days before the return of their Messiah.

 

[John146]

Paul says the Torah is for us to learn from

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

Romans 15:4
For everything that was written in the past was written for our instruction, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures, we might have hope.

Originally written to Israel, most of it, (excluding Noah etc gentiles) yet its to us today.

ALL Scripture is for us to learn from, despite not being addressed to us.

The Gospel of Luke is to ONE PERSON only, so according to your logic no one should read it. Its written to the gentile Theophilus, are we stealing someones mail?

All Scripture is written for us, but not all of it was written to us.

 

[Scribe]

Luke 10
25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’[a]; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”

28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

Read full chapter

Jame 2

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?

Yes! It was to all of us.

 

[FlyingDove]

Some people believe not all New Testament is for Christian, and some believe the book of James only for the nation of Israel.

What do you take on this view?

Hello Jackson,
I see you've received a variety of opinions, I'll ad one more.

Although ALL scripture is written for the NT believer, not ALL is written to the NT believers.

Matt 15:24 Jesus answered & said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
(NOTE: Jesus say's; He has been sent, ONLY, to the lost sheep of the ""House of Israel"")

Rom 15:8 I say that Messiah was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
(NOTE: Paul teaches; Messiah came to preach to the circumcision/Jews. To fulfil promises made to the circumcision/Jews fathers, NOT GENTILES)

Acts 10:28 Peter said unto them, Ye know how that it is an ""unlawful"" thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean
(NOTE: Peter explains to Cornelius a gentile. ""IT'S UNLAWFUL"" for a Jew to keep company with a gentile)

Jews to include Jesus (Matt 15:26) often referred to Gentiles as "dogs" (Matt 7:6; Lk 16:21)

Gentiles were considered so ungodly, being in their presence could make a Jew ceremonially unclean (Jn 18:28)

Acts 11:19 Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.
(NOTE: After Stephens death, Jesus believing Jews escaping persecution. Scattered/travelled as far as Phenice, Cyprus Antioch. And preached Christ to JEWS ONLY!)

It's several years after the Holy Spirit outpouring at Pentecost (Jews Only). When Jesus sends Peter to Cornelius house (a centurion of the Italian band Acts chp 10:1). Where gentile's 1st received the NT baptism of Christs indwelling Holy Spirit.)

The Gospel = Good News of salvation has always been appropriated/seized thru FAITH. For Abraham, FAITH in a sacrifice to come (Gen 22:14) . For the Jew under the gospel of the Kingdom message, also via FAITH that Jesus was their long promised Messiah. And to the NT Body of Christ again via FAITH. Placed in a sinless Christ's death (sins required wage PAID), burial (proof Christ died) & resurrection (God the Father's receipt, sins payment received & accepted). Peace FD.

 

[FlyingDove]

Some people believe not all New Testament is for Christian, and some believe the book of James only for the nation of Israel.

What do you take on this view?

The Book of James

Scripture Study Tips:

When dissecting any verse of scripture. Ask yourself, of whom, to whom, with what words, what time, where, to what intent, with what circumstances, considering what is written before and what follows any single verse context.
^^^Myles Coverdale, Bible theologian/translator^^^

James is writing to Israelites Ja 1:1. Temple worship & sacrifices are still taking place.

James epistle is in view of the coming pressures of the Tribulation. The King would soon return and set up the one thousand year Kingdom Age. I can't find 1 historian claim the Book of James wasn't written before the AD 51 Council of Jerusalem.

At the Council of Jerusalem the NT Church Apostles & elders vigorously debate, then agree. Followed by letters sent to the gentiles churches. Stating gentiles believers don't have to be circumcised or keep the law of Moses (See Acts chapter 15)

The NT gentile included gospel/good news by which we are saved, 1 Cor 15:1-4 Is that Christ died for our sins, was buried & rose from the dead. Isn't found in James Epistle

The NT gentile included gospel has no connection to Temple worship. No connection to the Mosaic Laws. James writes nothing about the gentile Body of Christ/Church.

The Body of Christ mystery was introduced by Paul. He also writes 3 pastoral epistles 1st & 2nd Timothy & Titus. These epistles teach a church leadership structure pastors & deacons. Good luck finding pastors or deacons at the Temple when James is written.

From aprox 37 AD until the Temple is destroyed in 70 AD. Temple & Church assemblies are operating. The real transition began in 51 AD at the Council of Jerusalem. Years after the epistle of James is written.

After the Temple is destroyed one valid message remains. The message the Risen Christ gave to Paul! No circumcision, no temple sacrifices, no Mosaic law to obey.

 

[lenna]

14But as for you, continue in the things you have learned and firmly believed, since you know from whom you have learned them.

15From infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be complete, fully equipped for every good work.
II Timothy 3


so go ahead and choose to ignore this written to Timothy because after all, unless your name is Timothy, this is not for you

sometimes I would just like to say a few things that would get me banned and this is one of those times

I will say that ignorance is not bliss, but some folks are very comfortable in their ignorance and wish to pull in others after them

 

[lenna]

James is specifically addressed to the twelve tribes, and I believe, the Jews in the last days before the return of their Messiah.

preterist viewpoint. full preterism is another scourge

 

[John146]

James is specifically addressed to the twelve tribes, and I believe, the Jews in the last days before the return of their Messiah.

preterist viewpoint. full preterism is another scourge

The book of James is yet to be fulfilled...the opposite of Preterism. It is placed chronologically after Paul’s epistles as the Lord turns His attention back to the nation of Israel.

 

[Guojing]

The Book of James

Scripture Study Tips:

When dissecting any verse of scripture. Ask yourself, of whom, to whom, with what words, what time, where, to what intent, with what circumstances, considering what is written before and what follows any single verse context.
^^^Myles Coverdale, Bible theologian/translator^^^

James is writing to Israelites Ja 1:1. Temple worship & sacrifices are still taking place.

James epistle is in view of the coming pressures of the Tribulation. The King would soon return and set up the one thousand year Kingdom Age. I can't find 1 historian claim the Book of James wasn't written before the AD 51 Council of Jerusalem.

At the Council of Jerusalem the NT Church Apostles & elders vigorously debate, then agree. Followed by letters sent to the gentiles churches. Stating gentiles believers don't have to be circumcised or keep the law of Moses (See Acts chapter 15)

The NT gentile included gospel/good news by which we are saved, 1 Cor 15:1-4 Is that Christ died for our sins, was buried & rose from the dead. Isn't found in James Epistle

The NT gentile included gospel has no connection to Temple worship. No connection to the Mosaic Laws. James writes nothing about the gentile Body of Christ/Church.

The Body of Christ mystery was introduced by Paul. He also writes 3 pastoral epistles 1st & 2nd Timothy & Titus. These epistles teach a church leadership structure pastors & deacons. Good luck finding pastors or deacons at the Temple when James is written.

From aprox 37 AD until the Temple is destroyed in 70 AD. Temple & Church assemblies are operating. The real transition began in 51 AD at the Council of Jerusalem. Years after the epistle of James is written.

After the Temple is destroyed one valid message remains. The message the Risen Christ gave to Paul! No circumcision, no temple sacrifices, no Mosaic law to obey.

I think the misunderstanding is because very few churches preach the prophetic program to their members. They don't understand that, under that program, after Jesus was crucified, resurrected and ascended to heaven, that period in early Acts was Daniel's 70th week.

Peter, James and John were all brought up with that understanding. They all knew that, according to that timetable, the Tribulation would begin at any moment (Psalms 110:1)

That was why Peter was pleading with Israel in Acts 2 and 3, to repent quickly, be water baptized, to be part of the "little flock".

17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

and Acts 3:19-23

Once one can understand what the 12, including James, were thinking about then, you can understand better why James wrote the letter the way he did. There was no time to waste, the Messiah is coming anytime for Israel.

James 5

7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.

8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

 

[Guojing]

The book of James is yet to be fulfilled...the opposite of Preterism. It is placed chronologically after Paul’s epistles as the Lord turns His attention back to the nation of Israel.

I have recently been taught what Zechariah 14 was about, how it links to the Tribulation

1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

So once, we are able to put ourselves in the shoes of Peter, James and John, who were expecting Zech 14 to happen anytime after they saw Jesus ascended to Heaven, we can understand better the urgency in what they did, and what they wrote in their letters to Israel.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Christians are not members of the twelve tribes of Israel for there is no Jew or gentile in Christ.

Spiritually there is no Jew or Gentile in the Body of Christ, but ethnically there are Jews from the twelve tribes. One should not confuse the two things.

There were many Hebrew Christians in Judea and the Roman Empire when the epistles of James and Hebrews were written. Jews needed to see the difference between the Old and New Covenant and then proceed further. At the same time the Judaizers had entered into the churches to confuse Christians.

 

[John146]

Spiritually there is no Jew or Gentile in the Body of Christ, but ethnically there are Jews from the twelve tribes. One should not confuse the two things.

There were many Hebrew Christians in Judea and the Roman Empire when the epistles of James and Hebrews were written. Jews needed to see the difference between the Old and New Covenant and then proceed further. At the same time the Judaizers had entered into the churches to confuse Christians.

Every usage of the phrase “twelve tribes “ throughout Scripture points to the entire nation of Israel and never a called out group (like Christians) from that nation. Saying these are Christian Jews would contradict every other usage. I’m not willing to do that.

 

[Guojing]

Spiritually there is no Jew or Gentile in the Body of Christ, but ethnically there are Jews from the twelve tribes. One should not confuse the two things.

There were many Hebrew Christians in Judea and the Roman Empire when the epistles of James and Hebrews were written. Jews needed to see the difference between the Old and New Covenant and then proceed further. At the same time the Judaizers had entered into the churches to confuse Christians.

Something that always fascinates me is that you have stated that you believe in the pre tribulation rapture of the body of Christ.

And you also believe that the tribulation is for the nation Israel.

But strangely you don’t agree that James letter which was clearly written to the 12 tribes, is the relevant doctrine for them during those 7 years?

If a Jew during those 7 years believes in Jesus death and resurrection in year 1 but decide to take the mark of the beast say at year 6, can his faith alone justify him, as James would ask in James 2.

 

[Blik]

Spiritually there is no Jew or Gentile in the Body of Christ, but ethnically there are Jews from the twelve tribes. One should not confuse the two things.

There were many Hebrew Christians in Judea and the Roman Empire when the epistles of James and Hebrews were written. Jews needed to see the difference between the Old and New Covenant and then proceed further. At the same time the Judaizers had entered into the churches to confuse Christians.

Modern day Christians seem confused about what a Judaizer is. Some go so far as say that anyone who believes the Lord speaks to gentiles in the OT is a Judaizer. Scripture tells us in Acts 15 that gentiles do not need to obey the customs of the Jews, and Christians today make that into the commandment of "anything the Jews do is evil, we are not to do it". That order was given by Constantine, not James as told of in Acts.

What do you think is a Judaizer?

 

[Nehemiah6]

What do you think is a Judaizer?

A Judaizer was one who insisted that faith in Christ was not enough for salvation. He insisted that Christians must also be Torah observant in order to be saved (including the works of the Law). The issue of circumcision was a good example. And Paul addressed this matter in the epistle to the Galatians.

 

[crossnote]

Best not to ignore such passages as...

Romans 15:8 (KJV) Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

John 1:11 (KJV) He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

 

[Nehemiah6]

But strangely you don’t agree that James letter which was clearly written to the 12 tribes, is the relevant doctrine for them during those 7 years?

Any saved Jews (12 tribes) from Pentecost to the Rapture would be already in Heaven prior to those 7 years. And unsaved Jews during the Tribulation will have Moses and Elijah on earth preaching to them (Revelation 11). While those two prophets are not named, their presence is implied through the miracles done by them.

 

[Guojing]

Any saved Jews (12 tribes) from Pentecost to the Rapture would be already in Heaven prior to those 7 years. And unsaved Jews during the Tribulation will have Moses and Elijah on earth preaching to them (Revelation 11). While those two prophets are not named, their presence is implied through the miracles done by them.

You do agree however, that, during those 7 years, those unsaved Jews cannot rely on Romans 4:5 and worketh not, to be saved correct?

They have to follow the doctrine given in James 2, as well as in 1 Peter, 1 John and Jude, in order to receive their salvation at the end when Jesus return for them.