Would it be safer to die early in Lord ?

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Chester

Chester

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#21
May 23, 2016
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#21
PC123 said:
Where in the bible does it say that we are saved while still on this earth?
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Ephesians 2:8 - "for by grace are ye saved through faith . . ."

That verse used the Greek perfect tense for "saved" which indicates completed action with ongoing results. So that means I was saved in the past with ongoing results . . .! PTL! And I have been on this earth ever since I was born . . . So I have been saved while I have been on Earth.

No, you probably will not find a verse that says it in those exact words - that is - no verse says "we are saved while still on earth".
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#22
Aug 4, 2020
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#22
acts5_29 said:
This applies to babies going to Heaven as well. All the same arguments apply to why don't we just abort ALL babies, then they all go to Heaven before they reach accountability.

This is just speculation on my end. But I think God's design is that we must first undergo trial. When we short-circuit that, first, we never grow (through trial) to be all we were meant to be. And second, remember, there was war in Heaven. When the sheep are separated from the goats, that is so that there is no more war in Heaven. We just short-circuited that, too.
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My point was believer's. Its clear some die sooner than others and we could see an advantage for those that die young in the Lord than those who run the risk of messing things up . This seems to be a imbalance of fairness as dying early on yo
Chester said:
Thanks for enabling me to have a good hearty laugh here. You very much distort and misalign the viewpoint you are trying to destroy.

(1) First, you say "for those that teach that Christians can still go to hell after they are saved" -- LOL! You would probably say I believe this, but I have never in my life said it with the slant you use here. That is a scare tactic - and not even true - because "Arminians" do not believe that Christians go to hell - only non-Christians go to hell.

(2) Second - You ask - "Would it not be better to die before we later mess it all up" - the implications of a statement like that is = go out and commit suicide! Now I know you weren't trying to say that, but how else would a person have any control over when they die? What, do you pray to God and ask to have him kill you?

(3) You must not believe that such a person as you describe (or think you are describing) can have assurance of salvation. Assurance of salvation for me is based on the promises of God: that the one who believes will have eternal life. I am believing and hence I know I have eternal life: quite simple! But life-changing! And gives the power to live above sin today for God's Kingdom and Glory!

(4) Fear of living longer because I might cease believing in my Redeemer! Not by the hair of my chin-ee-chin -chin!!!!!!

(5) Your contrast of the importance of the eternal end versus the present life and growth shows a bias often found in OSAS believers.
Eternal life is not only living forever in heaven, but it is also ihe present journey on Earth living the abundant life in a daily victory over sin - that is - eternal life is to know God.

:):oops:;)
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I think you know what I'm meaning by saying ' christians ' . I would have confused the matter by saying ' professing christians or ' Christians who stop being Christians. Ive listened to many sermons to Christians saying you Christians can lose your salvation. Meaning you 'Christians can end up in hell' .
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#23
Aug 4, 2020
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#23
Chester said:
Thanks for enabling me to have a good hearty laugh here. You very much distort and misalign the viewpoint you are trying to destroy.

(1) First, you say "for those that teach that Christians can still go to hell after they are saved" -- LOL! You would probably say I believe this, but I have never in my life said it with the slant you use here. That is a scare tactic - and not even true - because "Arminians" do not believe that Christians go to hell - only non-Christians go to hell.

(2) Second - You ask - "Would it not be better to die before we later mess it all up" - the implications of a statement like that is = go out and commit suicide! Now I know you weren't trying to say that, but how else would a person have any control over when they die? What, do you pray to God and ask to have him kill you?

(3) You must not believe that such a person as you describe (or think you are describing) can have assurance of salvation. Assurance of salvation for me is based on the promises of God: that the one who believes will have eternal life. I am believing and hence I know I have eternal life: quite simple! But life-changing! And gives the power to live above sin today for God's Kingdom and Glory!

(4) Fear of living longer because I might cease believing in my Redeemer! Not by the hair of my chin-ee-chin -chin!!!!!!

(5) Your contrast of the importance of the eternal end versus the present life and growth shows a bias often found in OSAS believers.
Eternal life is not only living forever in heaven, but it is also ihe present journey on Earth living the abundant life in a daily victory over sin - that is - eternal life is to know God.

:):oops:;)
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There is clearly a difference on this topic depending on your views. From my position of ( Not the Calvinist version ) Eternal Security . it makes no difference how long I live because I cannot forfiet my salvation. So a long life does not increase my odds to mess up and lose salvation . Where as from your position this is precarious as you are saved as long as you keep on persevering . But ultimately you cannot know you will make it . At best you might say ' today ' I know if I were to die I would be ok, but who knows what tomorrow's challenges bring .So the future is not guaranteed from your view . So from this perspective going to be with the Lord today rather than tomorrow is a better hope.
 
Chester

Chester

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#24
May 23, 2016
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#24
throughfaith said:
There is clearly a difference on this topic depending on your views. From my position of ( Not the Calvinist version ) Eternal Security . it makes no difference how long I live because I cannot forfiet my salvation. So a long life does not increase my odds to mess up and lose salvation . Where as from your position this is precarious as you are saved as long as you keep on persevering . But ultimately you cannot know you will make it . At best you might say ' today ' I know if I were to die I would be ok, but who knows what tomorrow's challenges bring .So the future is not guaranteed from your view . So from this perspective going to be with the Lord today rather than tomorrow is a better hope.
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So let me ask you a question:

How do you know you were saved to start with? Your conversion experience may simply be a pretext of your imagination? Maybe only an intellectual experience? After all, I bet you have some sins in your life that you haven't been able to overcome yet. In fact, last night I saw you . . . __________________!!! (Just kidding, actually :p). And is it possible that you might go down the road of sinning worse and worse . . . ???? So I really wonder if you were ever really born again to start with? You can't really be sure because if your life of sinning gets much worse others will soon be doubting your conversion experience. Maybe you had better go try to do a better job at being converted just to be sure??!!
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#25
Aug 4, 2020
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#25
Chester said:
So let me ask you a question:

How do you know you were saved to start with? Your conversion experience may simply be a pretext of your imagination? Maybe only an intellectual experience? After all, I bet you have some sins in your life that you haven't been able to overcome yet. In fact, last night I saw you . . . __________________!!! (Just kidding, actually :p). And is it possible that you might go down the road of sinning worse and worse . . . ???? So I really wonder if you were ever really born again to start with? You can't really be sure because if your life of sinning gets much worse others will soon be doubting your conversion experience. Maybe you had better go try to do a better job at being converted just to be sure??!!
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Well as Jesus died for the sins of the world why would sins send anyone to hell now ?
 
Chester

Chester

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#26
May 23, 2016
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#26
throughfaith said:
Well as Jesus died for the sins of the world why would sins send anyone to hell now ?
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Because the wages of sin is death and the way to eternal life and forgiveness of sins is to believe in Christ as our atonement for our sins.
 
T

throughfaith

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#27
Aug 4, 2020
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#27
Chester said:
Because the wages of sin is death and the way to eternal life and forgiveness of sins is to believe in Christ as our atonement for our sins.
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Yes only Jesus past that test . We've all sinned and the wages of that means we die . But now Jesus has reconciled the whole world . So sin is not the issue in salvation any more For the whole world . Otherwise Jesus did not die for the sins of the whole world reconciling the whole world . And if He didn't then were not really telling unbelivers much in the way of good news .
 
S

seed_time_harvest

Senior Member
#28
Dec 9, 2011
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#28
throughfaith said:
For those that teach that christians can still go to hell after they are saved . Would it not be better to die before we can later mess it all up ? like the theif on the cross . He had no works to show and no opportunities to fail and when he died we know he was saved .
I believe this reveals a fatal flaw in the theology of those that hold to conditional salvation . We would see a disadvantage for those that live longer . You might say well the longer we live the more 'growth ' and blessings . But this would be a small consolation to an eternity in the lake of fire . This is when we see the inconsistency to this position brought to the surface . which I hope to discuss here .
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Yes I agree with you,the only way a person could say that they think It Is better to die as soon as a person Is born again of Incorruptible seed are those that believe a person can lose their salvation by not doing works,works of their own man made decision of what’s right or wrong that they think GOD would agree with and IMO,this Is the person that believes the ten commandments can be kept.

They would say that the same GOD that gave the OLD testament IS the same GOD that gave the NEW testament and since GOD doesn’t change the man should keep the old covenant and the be under grace at the same time.

They say If you love HIM keep the commandments whereas Paul wrote the law Is spiritual but he Is carnal sold under sin.
 
Chester

Chester

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#29
May 23, 2016
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#29
Chester said:
Because the wages of sin is death and the way to eternal life and forgiveness of sins is to believe in Christ as our atonement for our sins.
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throughfaith said:
Yes only Jesus past that test . We've all sinned and the wages of that means we die . But now Jesus has reconciled the whole world . So sin is not the issue in salvation any more For the whole world . Otherwise Jesus did not die for the sins of the whole world reconciling the whole world . And if He didn't then were not really telling unbelivers much in the way of good news .
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So I am just trying to understand what you believe:

(1) You believe that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world and has reconciled the whole world.
(2) You believe then that since Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, then sin does not send anyone to hell. Sin is no longer an issue for anyone.

Am I understanding right? Are those two statements true of what you believe?
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#30
Aug 4, 2020
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#30
Chester said:
So I am just trying to understand what you believe:

(1) You believe that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world and has reconciled the whole world.
(2) You believe then that since Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, then sin does not send anyone to hell. Sin is no longer an issue for anyone.

Am I understanding right? Are those two statements true of what you believe?
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Of course .And no I'm not a universalist.2 cor 5 .19

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
 
Blue_Of_Lake

Blue_Of_Lake

Active member
#31
Jun 12, 2020
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#31
throughfaith said:
Of course .And no I'm not a universalist.2 cor 5 .19

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
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the Word of Reconciliation: "Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is At Hand".

to anyOne who repents the Reconciliation draws closer. To him who repents (Changes) even More, the Reconciliation draws Even closer.

the Way is Narrow -- but Christ (following Christ, living for Christ, obeying Christ, reflecting Christ) -- is the Way.
 
T

throughfaith

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#32
Aug 4, 2020
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#32
Blue_Of_Lake said:
the Word of Reconciliation: "Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is At Hand".

to anyOne who repents the Reconciliation draws closer. To him who repents (Changes) even More, the Reconciliation draws Even closer.

the Way is Narrow -- but Christ (following Christ, living for Christ, obeying Christ, reflecting Christ) -- is the Way.
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Why did you go back to two verse s before the cross " repent for the kingdom is at hand " ? And " The way is narrow ' ? If you have believed the Gospel and have already recieved Jesus and been sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption, you have found that narrow way ?
 
Blue_Of_Lake

Blue_Of_Lake

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#33
Jun 12, 2020
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#33
seed_time_harvest said:
Yes I agree with you,the only way a person could say that they think It Is better to die as soon as a person Is born again of Incorruptible seed are those that believe a person can lose their salvation by not doing works,works of their own man made decision of what’s right or wrong that they think GOD would agree with and IMO,this Is the person that believes the ten commandments can be kept.

They would say that the same GOD that gave the OLD testament IS the same GOD that gave the NEW testament and since GOD doesn’t change the man should keep the old covenant and the be under grace at the same time.

They say If you love HIM keep the commandments whereas Paul wrote the law Is spiritual but he Is carnal sold under sin.
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to be Under Grace means to be Walking in the Power of GOD and living IN Christ -- the Christ Life. to the Degree that you are not Living IN Christ At Your Level (Milk, Herbs, Meat) and at your Current Understanding and Ability (as the Spirit reveals to you day by day what it would rather You Do), to that degree And to that Amount -- you are not totally Under Grace; or in Other Words: inasmuch as You are Outside of Christ's Life being Lived Out IN YOU (In Faith that God is the Rewarder of those Who Earnestly seek HIM) You Have Not Entered or come into the Sabbath Rest (Grace) -- Inasmuch and Wherever in your Life that You Are Living OUTSIDE of Christ (True Life) -- not Outside a Belief in Christ to Confer on you Himself -- but Outside a Very Alignment -- more and More with True Life and Spiritual Life (Jesus the Christ/Yeshua).


Berean Study Bible
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists AND that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.

Berean Literal Bible
And without faith, it is impossible to please Him. For it behooves the one drawing near to God to believe that He exists AND that He becomes a rewarder to those earnestly seeking Him out.

New American Standard Bible
And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is AND that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

New King James Version
But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, AND that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#34
Aug 4, 2020
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#34
Blue_Of_Lake said:
to be Under Grace means to be Walking in the Power of GOD and living IN Christ -- the Christ Life. to the Degree that you are not Living IN Christ At Your Level (Milk, Herbs, Meat) and at your Current Understanding and Ability (as the Spirit reveals to you day by day what it would rather You Do), to that degree And to that Amount -- you are not totally Under Grace; or in Other Words: inasmuch as You are Outside of Christ's Life being Lived Out IN YOU (In Faith that God is the Rewarder of those Who Earnestly seek HIM) You Have Not Entered or come into the Sabbath Rest (Grace) -- Inasmuch and Wherever in your Life that You Are Living OUTSIDE of Christ (True Life) -- not Outside a Belief in Christ to Confer on you Himself -- but Outside a Very Alignment -- more and More with True Life and Spiritual Life (Jesus the Christ/Yeshua).


Berean Study Bible
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists AND that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.

Berean Literal Bible
And without faith, it is impossible to please Him. For it behooves the one drawing near to God to believe that He exists AND that He becomes a rewarder to those earnestly seeking Him out.

New American Standard Bible
And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is AND that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

New King James Version
But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, AND that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
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Yes and when we come to God believing the Gospel ( 1 cor15 1-4 ) he is pleased and saves us . ( 1cor 1 .21 )
You seem to have not done this ,or maybe its the strange way your explaining things. So yes without believing ( faith ) the Gospel we will not be saved ( please God ) . Your still on the bit before a person comes to Jesus .
 
S

seed_time_harvest

Senior Member
#35
Dec 9, 2011
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#35
Blue_Of_Lake said:
to be Under Grace means to be Walking in the Power of GOD and living IN Christ -- the Christ Life. to the Degree that you are not Living IN Christ At Your Level (Milk, Herbs, Meat) and at your Current Understanding and Ability (as the Spirit reveals to you day by day what it would rather You Do), to that degree And to that Amount -- you are not totally Under Grace; or in Other Words: inasmuch as You are Outside of Christ's Life being Lived Out IN YOU (In Faith that God is the Rewarder of those Who Earnestly seek HIM) You Have Not Entered or come into the Sabbath Rest (Grace) -- Inasmuch and Wherever in your Life that You Are Living OUTSIDE of Christ (True Life) -- not Outside a Belief in Christ to Confer on you Himself -- but Outside a Very Alignment -- more and More with True Life and Spiritual Life (Jesus the Christ/Yeshua).


Berean Study Bible
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists AND that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.

Berean Literal Bible
And without faith, it is impossible to please Him. For it behooves the one drawing near to God to believe that He exists AND that He becomes a rewarder to those earnestly seeking Him out.

New American Standard Bible
And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is AND that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

New King James Version
But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, AND that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
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I believe that Grace means the person can't get saved by any good works that they do and they ARE totally under Grace If they are going to receive CHRIST and Then after receiving CHRIST they will renew their minds to the New Creation they have become.

I'm talking about salvation first and then continuous sanctification.
 
Chester

Chester

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#36
May 23, 2016
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#36
throughfaith said:
Of course .And no I'm not a universalist.2 cor 5 .19

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
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Well, I do not believe that way.

I believe that the wages of sin is death. But God has given His Son, and His Son shed his blood for the sins of the whole world. And if I (and anyone - whosoever) believes in that blood atonement they find forgiveness for their sins.

But sin is evil, and wrong, and leads to eternal death. The unbeliever outside of God's grace is going to an eternal hell because of sin. But praise the Lord He has provided a way of escape.

And I intend to take that message of deliverance from sin to the world around me.
 
Benadam

Benadam

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#37
Aug 14, 2019
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#37
throughfaith said:
He had no works to show and no opportunities to fail
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He defended Jesus publicly. He proclaimed the radical injustice happening to Christ. Then asked Jesus to remember him and be His Lord.
He did a lifetimes worth of work in an afternoon. It was the opportunity of a lifetime😀
 
T

throughfaith

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#38
Aug 4, 2020
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#38
I also believe the wages of sin is death . Thats why we die.
Jesus did not sin ,but died non the less . But not for himself..but for entire cosmos .Everyone who ever lived ,EVERYONE before ,during and after . He died reconciling the entire cosmos . I take this verse literally .
2 cor 5.19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Are you saying this did not happen ?
Benadam said:
He defended Jesus publicly. He proclaimed the radical injustice happening to Christ. Then asked Jesus to remember him and be His Lord.
He did a lifetimes worth of work in an afternoon. It was the opportunity of a lifetime😀
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Praise the Lord we know for sure he made it . Had he lived on till he was 80 who knows he may have messed things up and gone to hell ( according to some )
 
Benadam

Benadam

Banned
#39
Aug 14, 2019
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#39
throughfaith said:
I also believe the wages of sin is death . Thats why we die.
Jesus did not sin ,but died non the less . But not for himself..but for entire cosmos .Everyone who ever lived ,EVERYONE before ,during and after . He died reconciling the entire cosmos . I take this verse literally .
2 cor 5.19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Are you saying this did not happen ?

Praise the Lord we know for sure he made it . Had he lived on till he was 80 who knows he may have messed things up and gone to hell ( according to some )
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I think there is a scripture that says that God does that
 
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