Would it be safer to die early in Lord ?

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throughfaith

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#1
Aug 4, 2020
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#1
For those that teach that christians can still go to hell after they are saved . Would it not be better to die before we can later mess it all up ? like the theif on the cross . He had no works to show and no opportunities to fail and when he died we know he was saved .
I believe this reveals a fatal flaw in the theology of those that hold to conditional salvation . We would see a disadvantage for those that live longer . You might say well the longer we live the more 'growth ' and blessings . But this would be a small consolation to an eternity in the lake of fire . This is when we see the inconsistency to this position brought to the surface . which I hope to discuss here .
 
A

Adstar

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#2
Jul 24, 2016
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#2
You never identified the reason some people believe Christians can go to hell after they have been saved..

Are you talking about works salvation believers who believe this?

Or grace salvation believers who believe this?
 
tourist

tourist

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#3
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#3
Read the parable of the 3 men who were trusted with a certain amount of talents by their master. Two of the men, by the bold actions they took, increased the amount. The remaining man was fearful, played it safe, and therefore missed an opportunity to serve his master.

If you want to serve the Lord you have to be willing to get your head into the game. Playing safe isn't going to cut it. Being fearful of losing your salvation comes into play when wondering if it were to be better to die now or risk screwing up later and losing your salvation. The thing is that Jesus said that He has not lost a single one that the Father has trusted into His care.

"Fear not" says the Lord. That is the mantra in the paradigm that I operate under.
 
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acts5_29

Active member
#4
Apr 17, 2020
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#4
This applies to babies going to Heaven as well. All the same arguments apply to why don't we just abort ALL babies, then they all go to Heaven before they reach accountability.

This is just speculation on my end. But I think God's design is that we must first undergo trial. When we short-circuit that, first, we never grow (through trial) to be all we were meant to be. And second, remember, there was war in Heaven. When the sheep are separated from the goats, that is so that there is no more war in Heaven. We just short-circuited that, too.
 
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throughfaith

Well-known member
#7
Aug 4, 2020
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#7
Adstar said:
You never identified the reason some people believe Christians can go to hell after they have been saved..

Are you talking about works salvation believers who believe this?

Or grace salvation believers who believe this?
Click to expand...
Anyone that believes the Above.
 
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throughfaith

Well-known member
#8
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#8
tourist said:
Read the parable of the 3 men who were trusted with a certain amount of talents by their master. Two of the men, by the bold actions they took, increased the amount. The remaining man was fearful, played it safe, and therefore missed an opportunity to serve his master.

If you want to serve the Lord you have to be willing to get your head into the game. Playing safe isn't going to cut it. Being fearful of losing your salvation comes into play when wondering if it were to be better to die now or risk screwing up later and losing your salvation. The thing is that Jesus said that He has not lost a single one that the Father has trusted into His care.

"Fear not" says the Lord. That is the mantra in the paradigm that I operate under.
Click to expand...
So you believe we cannot forfeit our salvation?
 
Lanolin

Lanolin

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#9
Dec 15, 2018
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#9
what do you mean the thief had no works. He took the punishment and gave up his life. Amd he also gave testimony and witness on the cross while dying.
tHe other thief that was on the other cross didnt do this and mocked Jesus.
 
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throughfaith

Well-known member
#10
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#10
acts5_29 said:
This applies to babies going to Heaven as well. All the same arguments apply to why don't we just abort ALL babies, then they all go to Heaven before they reach accountability.

This is just speculation on my end. But I think God's design is that we must first undergo trial. When we short-circuit that, first, we never grow (through trial) to be all we were meant to be. And second, remember, there was war in Heaven. When the sheep are separated from the goats, that is so that there is no more war in Heaven. We just short-circuited that, too.
Click to expand...
And how does Jesus dying for the sins of the world , reconciling the world to himself , play into what your saying ?
 
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throughfaith

Well-known member
#12
Aug 4, 2020
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#12
Lanolin said:
what do you mean the thief had no works. He took the punishment and gave up his life. Amd he also gave testimony and witness on the cross while dying.
tHe other thief that was on the other cross didnt do this and mocked Jesus.
Click to expand...
It would be a stretch to say he died and suffered for his faith lol so I don't think that's relevant .
 
tourist

tourist

Senior Member
#13
Mar 13, 2014
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#13
Lanolin said:
what do you mean the thief had no works. He took the punishment and gave up his life. Amd he also gave testimony and witness on the cross while dying.
tHe other thief that was on the other cross didnt do this and mocked Jesus.
Click to expand...
I believe that the work of the thief was, despite great pain and agony and soon to die, believed in the saving faith of Jesus.
 
Chester

Chester

Senior Member
#15
May 23, 2016
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#15
throughfaith said:
For those that teach that christians can still go to hell after they are saved . Would it not be better to die before we can later mess it all up ? like the theif on the cross . He had no works to show and no opportunities to fail and when he died we know he was saved .
I believe this reveals a fatal flaw in the theology of those that hold to conditional salvation . We would see a disadvantage for those that live longer . You might say well the longer we live the more 'growth ' and blessings . But this would be a small consolation to an eternity in the lake of fire . This is when we see the inconsistency to this position brought to the surface . which I hope to discuss here .
Click to expand...
Thanks for enabling me to have a good hearty laugh here. You very much distort and misalign the viewpoint you are trying to destroy.

(1) First, you say "for those that teach that Christians can still go to hell after they are saved" -- LOL! You would probably say I believe this, but I have never in my life said it with the slant you use here. That is a scare tactic - and not even true - because "Arminians" do not believe that Christians go to hell - only non-Christians go to hell.

(2) Second - You ask - "Would it not be better to die before we later mess it all up" - the implications of a statement like that is = go out and commit suicide! Now I know you weren't trying to say that, but how else would a person have any control over when they die? What, do you pray to God and ask to have him kill you?

(3) You must not believe that such a person as you describe (or think you are describing) can have assurance of salvation. Assurance of salvation for me is based on the promises of God: that the one who believes will have eternal life. I am believing and hence I know I have eternal life: quite simple! But life-changing! And gives the power to live above sin today for God's Kingdom and Glory!

(4) Fear of living longer because I might cease believing in my Redeemer! Not by the hair of my chin-ee-chin -chin!!!!!!

(5) Your contrast of the importance of the eternal end versus the present life and growth shows a bias often found in OSAS believers.
Eternal life is not only living forever in heaven, but it is also ihe present journey on Earth living the abundant life in a daily victory over sin - that is - eternal life is to know God.

:):oops:;)
 
tourist

tourist

Senior Member
#16
Mar 13, 2014
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#16
throughfaith said:
By you saying that it implies that we could, but that God would stop us just short of it ?
Click to expand...
That is probably an accurate statement to a certain extent as the Holy Spirit who lives inside those that are born-again, comforts and guides in the life-long repentance process. The 'could' part results in stumbles and will result in a conviction of the Holy Spirit that what happened was wrong. Fortunately, God is full of mercy and compassion and is quick to forgive those who desire reconciliation. I believe that Jesus washing the feet of the disciples feet is a reference to this. He said that those that have had a bath (salvation) have a need only to have their feet washed (reconciliation after committing a sin).
 
Lanolin

Lanolin

Well-known member
#17
Dec 15, 2018
23,460
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#17
throughfaith said:
It would be a stretch to say he died and suffered for his faith lol so I don't think that's relevant .
Click to expand...
why
I think it is.
here we have a witness to the son of God who has been forgiven by Jesus himself and you are saying its NOT RELEVANT? are you nuts. should he have kept silent then?
 
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throughfaith

Well-known member
#18
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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113
#18
acts5_29 said:
This applies to babies going to Heaven as well. All the same arguments apply to why don't we just abort ALL babies, then they all go to Heaven before they reach accountability.

This is just speculation on my end. But I think God's design is that we must first undergo trial. When we short-circuit that, first, we never grow (through trial) to be all we were meant to be. And second, remember, there was war in Heaven. When the sheep are separated from the goats, that is so that there is no more war in Heaven. We just short-circuited that, too.[/QUOTE Welk
Click to expand...
Chester said:
Thanks for enabling me to have a good hearty laugh here. You very much distort and misalign the viewpoint you are trying to destroy.

(1) First, you say "for those that teach that Christians can still go to hell after they are saved" -- LOL! You would probably say I believe this, but I have never in my life said it with the slant you use here. That is a scare tactic - and not even true - because "Arminians" do not believe that Christians go to hell - only non-Christians go to hell.

(2) Second - You ask - "Would it not be better to die before we later mess it all up" - the implications of a statement like that is = go out and commit suicide! Now I know you weren't trying to say that, but how else would a person have any control over when they die? What, do you pray to God and ask to have him kill you?

(3) You must not believe that such a person as you describe (or think you are describing) can have assurance of salvation. Assurance of salvation for me is based on the promises of God: that the one who believes will have eternal life. I am believing and hence I know I have eternal life: quite simple! But life-changing! And gives the power to live above sin today for God's Kingdom and Glory!

(4) Fear of living longer because I might cease believing in my Redeemer! Not by the hair of my chin-ee-chin -chin!!!!!!

(5) Your contrast of the importance of the eternal end versus the present life and growth shows a bias often found in OSAS believers.
Eternal life is not only living forever in heaven, but it is also ihe present journey on Earth living the abundant life in a daily victory over sin - that is - eternal life is to know God.

:):oops:;)
Click to expand...
Lanolin said:
why
I think it is.
here we have a witness to the son of God who has been forgiven by Jesus himself and you are saying its NOT RELEVANT? are you nuts. should he have kept silent then?
Click to expand...
He was on the cross for being a thief not for his faith . was my point .
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#20
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#20
PC123 said:
I see. One must make an assumption with such verses as well as ignoring the ones that contradict
Click to expand...
Not really. it literally describes that we are saved. in the future we will be glorified. But we are saved from the penalty of sin .
 
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