Irresistible Grace ?

[John146]

1 John 2:15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

^It says what it says.

Yes, but I rightly divide the word of truth. I don’t see 1 John as doctrine for the body of Christ. Some things are similar, some things are not. Paul’s epistles are specifically to the body of Christ.

I have loved ones that are of the world and lost. I love them. Does that mean I am lost?

 

[Duskey]

I find a lot of what you post..is of your own human understanding ....you don't seem to understand when the Holy Spirit speaks through a few believers on here....How do you know that the Holy Spirit resides in your heart?

If EVER Pot met Kettle. 😆

 

[MessageOfTheCross]

The most quoted verse in Calvinsim is without question John 6.44 .
44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Such a major part of reformed theology hangs on this one verse .

But : 1) We hear no mention of ' drawing' in the epistles .Nothing about a necessary drawing of the Father ,in the way the reformers use John 6.44 .

And 2) The verse nor the surrounding verses say nothing about those that drawn, IF they all do believe when they come . it simply says they CAN come if they are drawn .

3) This is before the cross . Why is this used for the church age? Jesus had not died for the sins of the world yet , no resurection , no Acts 2 and no giving of the Holy Spirit.

4) John 12 And I,if I be lifted up from the earth, WILL DRAW all men unto me.

5) There are no verses after the cross that say the Father draws anyone , nor the Holy Spirit .

“44 No man can come to Me, except the Father which has sent Me draw him (the idea is that all initiative toward Salvation is on the part of God toward the sinner and not from the sinner himself; without this “drawing of the Father,” which is done by the Holy Spirit, no one could come to God, or even have any desire to come to God): and I will raise him up at the last day (for the third time in this Chapter alone, Jesus addresses the Resurrection).” John 6:44

Excerpt From
The Expositor's Study Bible
Jimmy Swaggart
https://books.apple.com/us/book/the-expositors-study-bible/id399697870
This material may be protected by copyright.

 

[MessageOfTheCross]

“44 No man can come to Me, except the Father which has sent Me draw him (the idea is that all initiative toward Salvation is on the part of God toward the sinner and not from the sinner himself; without this “drawing of the Father,” which is done by the Holy Spirit, no one could come to God, or even have any desire to come to God): and I will raise him up at the last day (for the third time in this Chapter alone, Jesus addresses the Resurrection).” John 6:44

Excerpt From
The Expositor's Study Bible
Jimmy Swaggart
https://books.apple.com/us/book/the-expositors-study-bible/id399697870
This material may be protected by copyright.

“11 For the Grace of God that brings Salvation has appeared to all men (is available to all on the basis of Faith in Christ and what He did at the Cross),” Titus 2:11

Excerpt From
The Expositor's Study Bible
Jimmy Swaggart
https://books.apple.com/us/book/the-expositors-study-bible/id399697870
This material may be protected by copyright.

 

[throughfaith]

“44 No man can come to Me, except the Father which has sent Me draw him (the idea is that all initiative toward Salvation is on the part of God toward the sinner and not from the sinner himself; without this “drawing of the Father,” which is done by the Holy Spirit, no one could come to God, or even have any desire to come to God): and I will raise him up at the last day (for the third time in this Chapter alone, Jesus addresses the Resurrection).” John 6:44

Excerpt From
The Expositor's Study Bible
Jimmy Swaggart
https://books.apple.com/us/book/the-expositors-study-bible/id399697870
This material may be protected by copyright.

laying Mr Swag aside for a moment. The verse says the Father , Not the Holy Spirit in 6.44 ? And there are no verses that say the Holy Spirit ' draws ' anyone. And After the cross there is no verse that the Father ' draws ' anyone? So where are you getting your idea from ?

 

[Hevosmies]

Yes, but I rightly divide the word of truth. I don’t see 1 John as doctrine for the body of Christ. Some things are similar, some things are not. Paul’s epistles are specifically to the body of Christ.

I have loved ones that are of the world and lost. I love them. Does that mean I am lost?

Of course not, you are supposed to love the people who are lost. You arent supposed to love the WORLD, thats the problem I see with dispie doctrine, deleting key verses such as 1 John as somehow not applicable to the church

Paul says the same thing in essence:
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

World = bad. Whole Bible has that message.

 

[Chester]

For something so critical to how one is saved , as Calvinism tells us ,we see no mention in the Epistles. This is quite remarkable. As I said its before the cross also . The verses you give have no mention of ' drawing ' . Yes they can come .

So, the very words of God Himself are not truth if they are spoken before the cross? They are for me!!!!

 

[Hevosmies]

So, the very words of God Himself are not truth if they are spoken before the cross? They are for me!!!!

They believe this way cause they dont understand how a testament works.

I give my testament now and then it comes into effect.

Jesus gave His testimony while alive, then died and resurrected and it came to effect.

How these guys see it is: Jesus said something, but its not for us today because Jesus only gave the testament AFTER He resurrected.

Even tho He said to His disciples AFTER the resurrection to go into all the world and TEACH (and baptize) people what He had TAUGHT (past tense) them.

 

[John146]

Of course not, you are supposed to love the people who are lost. You arent supposed to love the WORLD, thats the problem I see with dispie doctrine, deleting key verses such as 1 John as somehow not applicable to the church

Paul says the same thing in essence:
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

World = bad. Whole Bible has that message.

I’m a new creature in Christ. I am not to conform to this world. But there’s no guarantee, hence the command. If it were guaranteed then there would be no need for that verse.

Do you believe in the loss of salvation?

 

[John146]

So, the very words of God Himself are not truth if they are spoken before the cross? They are for me!!!!

The words spoken to Jonah was truth. Do you obey those words? Have you gone to Nineveh to cry out against it?

 

[Chester]

The words spoken to Jonah was truth. Do you obey those words? Have you gone to Nineveh to cry out against it?

The words spoken to Jonah were very clearly instructions for Jonah.
The teachings of Jesus are very clearly given for all the world today. The Great Commission (Matt. 28:18-20) makes this abundantly clear.

 

[John146]

The words spoken to Jonah were very clearly instructions for Jonah.
The teachings of Jesus are very clearly given for all the world today. The Great Commission (Matt. 28:18-20) makes this abundantly clear.

The words of Jesus are clearly to the Jews concerning their promised kingdom. There was no body of Christ until after the resurrection.

 

[Chester]

The words of Jesus are clearly to the Jews concerning their promised kingdom. There was no body of Christ until after the resurrection.

Matthew 28:19,20: Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

(1) Jesus told his disciples to go to all the ethnic groups, not just the Jews.
(2) He told them to teach the ethnic groups "what I have commanded you" - that is - what I said - in the Gospels
(3) We are part of these ethnic groups - and so the words of Jesus in the Gospels are for us today

 

[John146]

Matthew 28:19,20: Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

(1) Jesus told his disciples to go to all the ethnic groups, not just the Jews.
(2) He told them to teach the ethnic groups "what I have commanded you" - that is - what I said - in the Gospels
(3) We are part of these ethnic groups - and so the words of Jesus in the Gospels are for us today

And observe all things that He commanded...do you heal the sick, raise the dead, cast out devils...take sacrifices to the priest as he commanded...sell everything you have to follow him...I can go on and on...

 

[Grandpa]

The words spoken to Jonah was truth. Do you obey those words? Have you gone to Nineveh to cry out against it?

I'm trying to but Ninevah has got her fingers in her ears....

 

[garee]

If we look at certain verses with a certain set of glasses we could make Acts 13 fit the system as Augustine did in debating Pelagius. Acts 13 is simply saying they disposed themselves to believe after hearing the message . The context proves this . look at the build up ""42¶And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
43Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
44¶And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
45But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
46Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and JUDGE YOURSELF unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

Keeping ceremonial laws as shadows is not judgeable.

The new era of sabbaths. . first day of the week was already in effect. Translators have destroyed the word rest by making it into a time senititive word "week" .A word that was not coined till much later. Rather than sabbath (rest) it became week. That supports the SDA conclusion .

If you remove the word week in the new testament and replace it the real understanding of the word "rest" .It then becomes clearer in all usages.

The Youngs literal does it in one place but ignores the other 9- to 11 times using the word week to replace rest. depending on the different paraphrases the number varies .

Matthew 28 Young's Literal Translation (YLT) And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre,

Matthew 28 King James Version (KJV) 28 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

 

[Hevosmies]

Do you believe in the loss of salvation?

NO!

 

[Hevosmies]

And observe all things that He commanded... .

Yeh. What does Jesus mean in the POST-RESURRECCTION Great commision then? Surely thats new testament even to dispies. AFTER resurrection.

 

[John146]

Yeh. What does Jesus mean in the POST-RESURRECCTION Great commision then? Surely thats new testament even to dispies. AFTER resurrection.

Where is His teaching to the disciples post resurrection and before His ascension?

 

[throughfaith]

So, the very words of God Himself are not truth if they are spoken before the cross? They are for me!!!!

of course . But does context matter at all ?