"this generation will not pass away" - until the second coming of Jesus?
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Thanks for the response
I believe Matthew 24 below covers the second coming end of this world.
The day and hour no man knows is the second coming.
Verses 42&44 below talk directly to the day and hour in a direct connection to the second coming.
Verses 50-51 below clearly shows the second coming and final judgement, (The End) Of This World.
Matthew 24:1-51KJV
And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
I believe Matthew 24 below covers the second coming end of this world.
The day and hour no man knows is the second coming.
Verses 42&44 below talk directly to the day and hour in a direct connection to the second coming.
Verses 50-51 below clearly shows the second coming and final judgement, (The End) Of This World.
Matthew 24:1-51KJV
And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Is what you are missing is the literal second coming of Jesus Christ in the clouds of heaven to earth, a (Future) event, that takes place immediately after a (Future) tribulation as clearly seen below.
You can't have a 70AD great tribulation, and immediately after the tribulation representing almost 2,000 years and waiting?
Both (The Great Tribulation) and the (Second Coming) are (Future) events unfulfilled.
Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
You can't have a 70AD great tribulation, and immediately after the tribulation representing almost 2,000 years and waiting?
Both (The Great Tribulation) and the (Second Coming) are (Future) events unfulfilled.
Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[quoting Wm Kelly's Commentary on Luke 21:32's "this generation shall not pass away, TILL ALL be fulfilled"... that I've posted in other threads... for the readers' consideration]
"But, this is not the only point of interest in this appendix to the prophecy. For the Lord has given us the positive proof, by the way in which verse 32 stands here, that "this generation" cannot mean a mere chronological space of thirty or even one hundred years, for it is brought in after the running out of Gentile times [v.24] and the coming of the Son of man with power and glory, events still unfulfilled. Its force is moral; not exactly the nation of Israel but that Christ-rejecting race which then refused their Messiah as they do still. This will go on till all these solemn threats of judgment are accomplished. It is profitable to remark that here, not in doctrine or in practice only, but in these unfoldings of the future, the Lord pledges the impossibility of failing in His words. The Lord does not say that this generation "shall not pass away till the temple is destroyed or the city taken," but till all be fulfilled. Now, He had [in v.24] introduced the subsequent treading down of Jerusalem to the end of Israel's trials at His appearing, and He declares that this generation shall not pass away till then; as indeed it is only then grace will form a new generation, the generation to come. The more we hold fast the continuity of the stream of the prophecy, as distinguished from the crisis in Matthew and Mark, the greater will be seen to be the importance of this remark."
--William Kelly, Luke 21 Commentary
[end quoting; bold, underline, color, and brackets mine]
"But, this is not the only point of interest in this appendix to the prophecy. For the Lord has given us the positive proof, by the way in which verse 32 stands here, that "this generation" cannot mean a mere chronological space of thirty or even one hundred years, for it is brought in after the running out of Gentile times [v.24] and the coming of the Son of man with power and glory, events still unfulfilled. Its force is moral; not exactly the nation of Israel but that Christ-rejecting race which then refused their Messiah as they do still. This will go on till all these solemn threats of judgment are accomplished. It is profitable to remark that here, not in doctrine or in practice only, but in these unfoldings of the future, the Lord pledges the impossibility of failing in His words. The Lord does not say that this generation "shall not pass away till the temple is destroyed or the city taken," but till all be fulfilled. Now, He had [in v.24] introduced the subsequent treading down of Jerusalem to the end of Israel's trials at His appearing, and He declares that this generation shall not pass away till then; as indeed it is only then grace will form a new generation, the generation to come. The more we hold fast the continuity of the stream of the prophecy, as distinguished from the crisis in Matthew and Mark, the greater will be seen to be the importance of this remark."
--William Kelly, Luke 21 Commentary
[end quoting; bold, underline, color, and brackets mine]
Sure, I can try to come back late tonight after I put something together... but lemme ask you... do you grasp what I've already put in my Posts #126 and #130? (if so, could you perhaps supply a very brief summary of what you think my basic point is, there, so I can take my next post from there as a starting point... as opposed to rehashing everything thus far [if you already grasp some of it]... would save me some typing . Thanks! [if you care to])
. Thanks! [if you care to])
Lets get to it im excited!
GREAT!
My Post #205 (above ^) was a C&P from previous post (and not meant as a "response" to your request, btw, just to be clear to the readers)... What I hope to get across (per your request) is something that will take me some time to put together (and recall, my typing is SLOW! lol ), but as I said, I will try to have it up later tonight.
[not that I haven't POSTED on it before, I have!, but I want to put it together in such a way that it actually addresses your specific question]
My Post #205 (above ^) was a C&P from previous post (and not meant as a "response" to your request, btw, just to be clear to the readers)... What I hope to get across (per your request) is something that will take me some time to put together (and recall, my typing is SLOW! lol ), but as I said, I will try to have it up later tonight.
[not that I haven't POSTED on it before, I have!, but I want to put it together in such a way that it actually addresses your specific question]
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GREAT!
My Post #205 (above ^) was a C&P from previous post (and not meant as a "response" to your request, btw, just to be clear to the readers)... What I hope to get across (per your request) is something that will take me some time to put together (and recall, my typing is SLOW! lol ), but as I said, I will try to have it up later tonight.
[not that I haven't POSTED on it before, I have!, but I want to put it together in such a way that it actually addresses your specific question]
My Post #205 (above ^) was a C&P from previous post (and not meant as a "response" to your request, btw, just to be clear to the readers)... What I hope to get across (per your request) is something that will take me some time to put together (and recall, my typing is SLOW! lol ), but as I said, I will try to have it up later tonight.
[not that I haven't POSTED on it before, I have!, but I want to put it together in such a way that it actually addresses your specific question]
) and most importantly Jesus coming back in the clouds and separating the sheep from the goats. That has definately not taken place. God bless you for taking the time to type it out, are you one of those guys who have to look down to the keyboard while typing? Thats tough! Im a young guy (in my late 20s) so to me typing is second nature.
Thank you very much for taking the time to go through this. I appreciate your insight in eschatology and notice we are on the same page very often. "The olivet discourse" as the pros call it has always been a trip up for me. On one hand many of the signs are clearly first century, stone blocks of the temples, disciples persecuted, Jerusalem surrounded and destroyed etc. But on the other hand we see things that clearly havent taken place yet, such as the gathering of the elect (I believe this is not the resurrection/rapture but gathering of people who are alive, but thats not the topic here ) and most importantly Jesus coming back in the clouds and separating the sheep from the goats. That has definately not taken place.
God bless you for taking the time to type it out, are you one of those guys who have to look down to the keyboard while typing? Thats tough! Im a young guy (in my late 20s) so to me typing is second nature.
) and most importantly Jesus coming back in the clouds and separating the sheep from the goats. That has definately not taken place.God bless you for taking the time to type it out, are you one of those guys who have to look down to the keyboard while typing? Thats tough! Im a young guy (in my late 20s) so to me typing is second nature.
This is the factual evidence against (Preterism) and 70AD fulfillment, the second coming seen is a (Future) event, simple.
Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
I Agree 100%
The account of John goes into great detail, yes he was with the Lord in Jerusalem at the Temple in Matthew 24:1-2
As John clearly states that the temple to be destroyed was the Lord's body.
Yes the (Preterist) are sitting in the seats of the Pharisees, claiming the stone Temple that took 46 years to build was the claim.
John 2:19-22KJV
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.
The account of John goes into great detail, yes he was with the Lord in Jerusalem at the Temple in Matthew 24:1-2
As John clearly states that the temple to be destroyed was the Lord's body.
Yes the (Preterist) are sitting in the seats of the Pharisees, claiming the stone Temple that took 46 years to build was the claim.
John 2:19-22KJV
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.
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Will try to go find the "shorter version" too... but here's a post I had made, but with some additions to it... hope it makes at least some sense to you = D ...
So the SEQUENCE goes like this:
--[AFTER the 69 Weeks (total) were completed on Palm Sunday] "Messiah [Jesus] shall be CUT OFF, and have nothing" (His "arrest/trials/death on the Cross"--"whom heaven must receive UNTIL the timeS of restoration OF ALL THINGS WHICH GOD SPAKE BY the mouths of all His holy prophets from the age")
[Then, per Lk21:12...]
1) BEFORE "all" the beginning of birth pangs... the 70ad events must unfold first:
2) [---<snip>--- (not pertinent to this present discussion)]
3) AFTER the events surrounding 70ad (and, note, I do not say immediately after):
4) AFTER "the beginning of birth PANGS" in vv.4-8 of Matt24 (and parallels of Mk13:5-8 and Lk21:8-11!!!!):
5) AFTER "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS [Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8 / Lk21:8-11]:
6) AFTER the "SEE-then-FLEE" of THIS Matt24:15 (at mid-trib):
7) AFTER the "SEE-then-FLEE" of Matt24:15 and the GT of Matt24:21 [involving 1260 days till His "RETURN" to the earth]:
So the SEQUENCE goes like this:
--[AFTER the 69 Weeks (total) were completed on Palm Sunday] "Messiah [Jesus] shall be CUT OFF, and have nothing" (His "arrest/trials/death on the Cross"--"whom heaven must receive UNTIL the timeS of restoration OF ALL THINGS WHICH GOD SPAKE BY the mouths of all His holy prophets from the age")
[Then, per Lk21:12...]
1) BEFORE "all" the beginning of birth pangs... the 70ad events must unfold first:
- Lk21:12-24a including "and they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all the nations" (and v.21's "SEE-then-FLEE" occurring in this set, and which pertains to the "[SEE] Jerusalem COMPASSED WITH ARMIES"; parallel Jesus' words on Palm Sunday saying the Lk19:41-44 thing [said to "Jerusalem" on Palm Sunday/day the 69 Wks total were concluded, saying "thine enemies shall... compass thee round" etc]; and Jesus' parable in Matt22:7 'the king WAS WROTH'/'sent forth his armies and...BURNED UP THEIR CITY' thing).
- This is part of the "desolaTIONS [PLURAL] are determined" of Dan9:26c
2) [---<snip>--- (not pertinent to this present discussion)]
3) AFTER the events surrounding 70ad (and, note, I do not say immediately after):
- THEN "the beginning of birth PANGS" commence to unfold upon the earth (the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3; Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE' ('a certain one' bringing deception)]" being the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL" time period [of JUDGMENTS unfolding upon the earth]... which is parallel SEAL #1 at the START of the trib yrs; and parallel the "whose COMING [ARRIVAL / ADVENT / PRESENCE / parousia]" of the man of sin "IN HIS TIME" ['IN THE NIGHT' / 'DARK' / 'DARKNESS' time period, which "time period" will take place 'IN QUICKNESS [NOUN; per Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 (7:3)]' i.e. the 7-yrs [in contrast with 'the things WHICH ARE' which do NOT take place 'IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]']')
4) AFTER "the beginning of birth PANGS" in vv.4-8 of Matt24 (and parallels of Mk13:5-8 and Lk21:8-11!!!!):
- MANY MORE "birth PANGS" take place (everything following on from vv.4-8 chronologically in Matthew 24!)
5) AFTER "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS [Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8 / Lk21:8-11]:
- THEN Matt24:15's "AOD [singular] spoken of by Daniel the prophet [Dan12:11 'SET UP']" takes place, and the "SEE-then-FLEE" of THIS takes place (DISTINCT from the one under Pt #1 above!, which took place in the events surrounding 70ad, and which had been thereafter accompanied by their "and they shall be led away captive into all the nations" Lk21:24a [which came after that "SEE-then-FLEE" which had to do with "SEE Jerusalem COMPASSED WITH ARMIES"... but THIS one DOES NOT... THIS one has to do with the "AOD [SINGULAR] spoken of by Daniel the prophet [Dan12:11 SINGULAR; "[be] SET UP"] standing in the holy place"]--this one corresponds with passages like Rev12:6,14 / Dan7:25,27 / Dan12:1,2-4,6-7,13 [at the end of which, Daniel is resurrected to "STAND in thy LOT at the END of the days" v.13 (distinct from vv.1-4 which is not a "physical resurrection")] / Rev11:2 / Rev13:5 / Rev7:14 as far as timing goes, speaking of "the GREAT tribulation"/2nd half of the "7 yrs"])
- notice the phrase (following the description of "the beginning of birth pangs" [vv.4-8] which we know come AFTER the 70ad events, plus further things [vv.9-14, i.e. BPs that continue on from "the BEGINNING" ones...])... that Matt24:15 says "When ye THEREFORE shall see..." (which I believe is showing a distinction from what was to be "seen" in the Lk21:20/70ad events)... and LATER verse 33 says "So likewise ye, when ye shall see all *THESE* things [the things already named in this text, i.e. DISTINCT FROM the "70ad section" of things in Lk21:12-24a/b... BECAUSE of the SEQUENCE ISSUES], know that IT is near, even at the doors [the "IT" being the commencement of the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth]"
6) AFTER the "SEE-then-FLEE" of THIS Matt24:15 (at mid-trib):
- 1260 days are yet to unfold upon the earth UNTIL Jesus' [OWN] Personal "RETURN" to the earth Rev19; THIS time-period (1260 days) SPECIFICALLY named as "THE GREAT tribulation" and involves also the "a great multitude... OF ALL THE NATIONS" (coming chronologically after the "they which be in Judaea FLEE to the mountains"<--which pertains to Israel [specifically, "them which be in Judaea" at the time, who are to "FLEE"], as I see it [Rev12's "the woman"])
7) AFTER the "SEE-then-FLEE" of Matt24:15 and the GT of Matt24:21 [involving 1260 days till His "RETURN" to the earth]:
- THEN the Matthew 24:29-31 takes place, PARALLEL Isaiah 27:12-13 (note the "WHO" and the "WHERE" they are gathered, and the "HOW" ['gathered ONE BY ONE, O ye children of Israel... to worship the Lord in the holy mount AT JERUSALEM" (parallel what Isa24:21-22[23] says), this being at the GREAT trumpet, and gathered by angels "He SHALL SEND" to do so...] (so, note... in every way distinct from the description of "our Rapture" point in time);
- THIS is the "one day which shall be known [future tense] to the Lord" Zech14:7 (again, Rev1:1 [95ad (60+ yrs after His ascension, and thus AFTER the "knoweth [perfect indicative] no man" not even Jesus, text)] says, "[The] Revelation of Jesus Christ WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO Him [/unto Jesus] to SHOW UNTO His servants things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" [i.e. the FUTURE aspects of the Book / 1:19c/4:1/[7:3], that being, the 7-yr trib that LEADS UP TO His "RETURN" to the earth]--IOW, I believe Jesus now "knows" and has known ever since His ascension, and then later disclosed this "further information" in the Revelation [re: the Subject of Matt24:36 "but of that day and hour knows [perfect indicative] no man"=2nd Coming to the earth/His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19; "perfect tense" is not saying "no one WILL/CAN EVER know"--Jesus indeed now "knows" and chose to disclose ])]
Hope this helps you see a little bit of my perspective on the TWO distinct "SEE-then-FLEEs" in the Olivet Discourse.
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@Kolistus - AND the shorter version (to go along with my previous post):
[quoting portion of old post]
The info surrounding "the beginning of birth PANGS" reveals a SEQUENCE:
Luke 21 has the "BoBPs" coming AFTER the 70ad events with its "SEE-then-FLEE";
whereas Matthew 24 has the "BoBPs" taking place BEFORE its [later, sequentially] "SEE-then-FLEE".
The "BoBPs" ^ are the same identical things in all 3 chpts (Matt24:4-8, Mk13:5-8, Lk21:8-11);
but the SEQUENCE is distinct, thus proving that the "SEE-then-FLEEs" are wholly distinct events at wholly distinct time frames...
(one "SEE-then-FLEE" in the events surrounding 70ad; the other "SEE-then-FLEE" in the events occurring in the midst/middle of the [far-future] specific, limited [7-yr] tribulation period ... <snip>...)
[end quoting]
[quoting portion of old post]
The info surrounding "the beginning of birth PANGS" reveals a SEQUENCE:
Luke 21 has the "BoBPs" coming AFTER the 70ad events with its "SEE-then-FLEE";
whereas Matthew 24 has the "BoBPs" taking place BEFORE its [later, sequentially] "SEE-then-FLEE".
The "BoBPs" ^ are the same identical things in all 3 chpts (Matt24:4-8, Mk13:5-8, Lk21:8-11);
but the SEQUENCE is distinct, thus proving that the "SEE-then-FLEEs" are wholly distinct events at wholly distinct time frames...
(one "SEE-then-FLEE" in the events surrounding 70ad; the other "SEE-then-FLEE" in the events occurring in the midst/middle of the [far-future] specific, limited [7-yr] tribulation period ... <snip>...)
[end quoting]
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The generation is the evil faithless generation, natural unconverted mankind. they have no faith. Not little.
I would think the beginning of birth pain is in sufferings to plant the seed in a hope Christ would give it life to grow. It began in the garden with Abel the first martyr /apostle .
Paul suffered in pain of birth until Christ was formed in Timothy .
Galatians 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,
In that way the whole church suffers in pain .She is shown in revelation 12 as the mother of us all . (mother of us all Galatian 4.)
Revelation 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
The generation is the evil faithless generation, natural unconverted mankind. they have no faith. Not little.
I would think the beginning of birth pain is in sufferings to plant the seed in a hope Christ would give it life to grow. It began in the garden with Abel the first martyr /apostle .
Paul suffered in pain of birth until Christ was formed in Timothy .
Galatians 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,
In that way the whole church suffers in pain .She is shown in revelation 12 as the mother of us all . (mother of us all Galatian 4.)
Revelation 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
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Makes perfect sense, and I am of course going to continue as well, but I just have't studied this part well, but thank you for your input brother.
It's so amazing to see it all fit together like it does. Not surprising considering the perfect God we serve, but to be gifted these glimpses into the perfection of His word and the nature and order of His plan in His creation, and amoungst such imperfect rebels like us is just beyond my capacity to fully grasp, (understatement of the year for sure) and excites the soul to see. Praise Jesus name........., well, for everything!!!!
It's so amazing to see it all fit together like it does. Not surprising considering the perfect God we serve, but to be gifted these glimpses into the perfection of His word and the nature and order of His plan in His creation, and amoungst such imperfect rebels like us is just beyond my capacity to fully grasp, (understatement of the year for sure) and excites the soul to see. Praise Jesus name........., well, for everything!!!!
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Amen brother. It's comforting to know that Christ did not tarry too long. He kept His promise to return and punish those who tormented and killed Him and His disciples. Better still, it's beyond words to express our appreciation that He opened up salvation to all of us as equals to all those who believe and accepted before whether Jew or Gentile. It is equally comforting to understand that when we die, we are immediately with Him and not waiting, sleeping in Hades for some vague future return.
Think about it. All the disciples could talk about was the return of Christ's presence. They urged people to remain sober, watch and to wait for it. Would be kind of pointless if Christ wasn't to return for thousands of years.
So, what's next? I think we can learn from history. God usually uses a foreign pagan country to punish and destroy a country which turned its back on Him.
Think about it. All the disciples could talk about was the return of Christ's presence. They urged people to remain sober, watch and to wait for it. Would be kind of pointless if Christ wasn't to return for thousands of years.
So, what's next? I think we can learn from history. God usually uses a foreign pagan country to punish and destroy a country which turned its back on Him.
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Full preterism does not believe the second coming takes place at death. It came in 70 AD. We (at least I) believe we come to Christ upon death, not the other way around.
Bodily resurrection?? Your current flesh body has no part in your spiritual body. Were you asleep in Paul's class when this was taught?
Bodily resurrection?? Your current flesh body has no part in your spiritual body. Were you asleep in Paul's class when this was taught?
