"this generation will not pass away" - until the second coming of Jesus?

[Northwind80]

It does not matter. The only way to reconcile what Christ said with what we know from the rest of Scripture is that the nation of Israel would exist at His Second Coming. And we now know that that is a reality.

It actually does matter because every word in the Bible is inspired and if a word appears that doesn't fit our how we understand other things in the Bible than we need to work a little harder to reconcile the two passages. And we absolutely can't reconcile the passages by saying that it doesn't matter that the word genea can't be translated race.

 

[soberxp]

when the angels will "REAP" (wheat and tares, and that

I've seen a female angel with a sickle and a hoodie

It's already harvested,but not 70AD.
You are now both on earth and in heaven at the same time.
Your body is still in the world, but your spirit has gone to heaven

If you don't believe it, when I didn't say it?

 

[Northwind80]

It actually does matter because every word in the Bible is inspired and if a word appears that doesn't fit our how we understand other things in the Bible than we need to work a little harder to reconcile the two passages. And we absolutely can't reconcile the passages by saying that it doesn't matter that the word genea can't be translated race.

So if two passages seemingly contradict in our minds then we need to use the analogy of faith to help us reconcile them.

 

[Northwind80]

Ah, I wouldnt of even posted what I did had I read your messages, you got all the bases covered. Good job.

The more sanity the better on this thread!!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

when the angels will "REAP" (wheat and tares, and that
I've seen a female angel with a sickle and a hoodie
It's already harvested,but not 70AD.
You are now both on earth and in heaven at the same time.

Your body is still in the world, but your spirit has gone to heaven
If you don't believe it, when I didn't say it?

[I assume your post is directed to me and my post?? (top line of your post ^ seems to be from my post)]


My response:

Just to note... I've posted before on the TWO [distinct] references to "firstfruit" in Leviticus 23, with the SECOND of these (namely Lev23:17) correlating with what is said of the "144,000" in Rev14:4... and where Lev23:17 refers to the "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN" (pertaining to the WHEAT harvest [as shown elsewhere]; i.e. distinct HARVESTS [meaning, there is more than one harvest])... so I believe the "144,000" are the firstfruit of the WHEAT harvest (like Matt13 speaks of)... and if they are "FIRSTfruit" of it, this means that the rest of THAT harvest FOLLOWS it. Are you saying that "the 144,000" have existed at some point in recent history (or even in the 70ad events), or are you among those who do not take "the 144,000: 12,000 from each of the tribes of ISRAEL listed there in Rev7" to be literally speaking of THAT, but of something else entirely?





[note: James 1:18 says "we" (speaking of 'the Church which is His body,' I believe [but either way, it still distinguishes!]) are "A CERTAIN KIND of firstfruit," may the readers recall - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/james/1-18.htm "G5100 - tis/tina - 'A CERTAIN KIND'" ]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

That was hilarious indeed. People will try whatever they can to make the This generation into something future. If you read back in the book of Matthew, from chapter 21 to 23, Jesus always uses "this generation" to mean the people He is speaking to. For example:
Matthew 23:36 Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. (context, Jesus speaking to Pharisees about how the prophets have been killed and how all the righteous blood since Abel will be demanded of them, happened in the siege of Jerusalem, clearly)

Not only is "this generation" used that way in the rest of the book of Matthew, but thats also the natural reading, if I am talking with someone and I say this generation will not pass until that happens.

Okay, first off, I don't think you are trying to say that "the bad guys" in Matt23 are identified as the same as "the good guys" of the early parts of Matt24 (preceding the verse 34 wording of "this generation"), surely... am I right?

Obviously everyone who I am talking to assumes I am talking about this current generation, not something 2000+ years in the future.

Except in "prophecy" and by use of the "proleptic 'you'" (meaning, 'all those in the future OF THE SAME CATEGORY,' and in the case of the Olivet Discourse, Jesus is speaking to 'a people' TO WHOM the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom [as we call it today] was promised!)

Just like (in another case) Paul refers to the entire "Church [WHICH IS HIS BODY]" with the word "you [and/or 'we']" ("proleptic 'you'," speaking of a particular set of people [even into the future from when he wrote it] to whom certain things apply... I'm thinking of 1Cor15:51-54's "THIS mortal" and "THIS corruptible" speaking SPECIFICALLY OF "the Church which is His body" at the time of "our Rapture" [each of both the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto" AND the "DEAD IN Christ" in this passage... whereas some mistakenly believe this is referring to a "GENERAL judgment"-type of context, when "death is swallowed up" ENTIRELY FOR ALL PPL OF ALL TIMES [the final point in TIME] in this context, but it is not... it refers specifically to "THIS mortal" and "THIS corruptible" (us/the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY, in this context)])

Best way to make it historical and future is: double fullfillment, very biblical and has happened many times. Examples are plenty and im willing to provide a few if asked.

I'm not against viewing some things as "double fulfillment," but in the Olivet Discourse I think it is slightly different due to the CHRONOLOGY/SEQUENCE ISSUES I've spelled out in past posts (meaning there are TWO distinct "SEE-then-FLEE" events [one in 70ad, the other "far future"], that RESEMBLE each other in several ways, but that are also described DISTINCTLY (and, again, in a SEQUENCE [not to mention, outcomes that are complete opposites] that demands that they are not identical/not speaking of the SAME point in time/events).

 

[Locoponydirtman]

Just a question. Since their question to Jesus in Matthew 24:3 was based on what He had PREVIOUSLY disclosed to them in Matthew 13:24,30,39,40,49-50 (re: "the end [singular] of the age [singular]") when the angels will "REAP" (wheat and tares, and that), are you saying that you believe Matthew 13:24,30,39,40,49-50 was "fulfilled" in the events surrounding 70ad (rather than yet future)... meaning, you believe the angels did [already] "REAP" (wheat and tares [separation], and etc from the Matthew 13:24,30,39,40,49-50 passage)??

Just wondering your view on that.
(Esp. in view of what I put in past posts about how Lk21:32's "TILL ALL be fulfilled" necessarily must INCLUDE the LISTED ITEMS [of lengthy duration] in what verse 24 had already just said.)



[by the way, for the readers, the commentary I posted in Post #96 covered some of that issue (re: their Q of Him in Matt24:3 and its RELATION to Matt13)...; plus the posts I've made in the past on the subject of the "proleptic 'you'" in the Olivet Discourse]

You assume this all happened as one event. But there are clues that indicate this is different events, and the disciples are referring to Jesus telling the temple will be destroyed.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

You assume this all happened as one event. But there are clues that indicate this is different events, and the disciples are referring to Jesus telling the temple will be destroyed.

Okay, let me see if I understand your point.

Are you saying that the references to "the end [singular] of the age [singular]" in Matthew 13 (several references to this phrase) are themselves each speaking of events [possibly / potentially] several thousands of years apart? Like, in one instance (in Matt13) it refers to the events surrounding 70ad, and in another instance (in Matt13) it refers to events "far-future"? Or are you meaning something else? (my apologies for my dense-ness )

 

[Ahwatukee]

when the angels will "REAP" (wheat and tares, and that

I've seen a female angel with a sickle and a hoodie

It's already harvested,but not 70AD.
You are now both on earth and in heaven at the same time.
Your body is still in the world, but your spirit has gone to heaven

If you don't believe it, when I didn't say it?

Just fyi, everywhere the word "angel" appears referring to a heavenly being, it is always in the masculine and never in the feminine.

Your body is still in the world, but your spirit has gone to heaven

Without the spirit, the body would not be able to function.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Here is a post I made in the past, on this Subject, FWIW (then I gotta run, and will be away for awhile):

[quoting]


A few things help us ascertain just "when" the phrase "this generation" speaks of, or to "what" it pertains:

1) Q: is this the SAME [reference to] "this generation" in Lk21:32? (as a pre-tribber even, I do believe it is the SAME);
so, in Lk21:32's placement and its phrase "till ALL be fulfilled" necessarily INCLUDES the info just provided in verse 24 ("and they shall be led away captive into all the nations" AND "Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles UNTIL the TIMES of the Gentiles be fulfilled"<--both of these items MUST be included in v.32's "ALL" / "till ALL be fulfilled");


2) from there (if we agree they are the same "reference," and that these TWO items ^ must be INCLUDED in the overall understanding of the term),
we can then examine the other SEQUENCE issues, such as:

are the Matt24:4-8/Mk13:5-8/Lk21:8-11 [equated as] "the beginning of birth PANGS" even though the third one (Lk21:8-11) isn't LABELED as such?...

and my conclusion is that they ARE (they ARE parallel events [i.e. the SAME/IDENTICAL events at the SAME time-frame]; known as "the BoBPs");


3) from there (if we agree that all three of those sections are THE SAME [PARALLEL/identical] events ['the BoBPs']),
then we can examine what verse 12 (following this section) says and means, when it states in Lk21:12, "But BEFORE ALL THESE [i.e. BEFORE all these beginning of birth pangs JUST MENTIONED in vv.8-11!],"

before all those BoBPs, the events of the following section must take place first (vv.12-24a's reference to "the 70ad events"--so this is saying "the 70ad events" must take place BEFORE "all the beginning of birth PANGS" of the prior section);

and then in Matthew 24, THAT record (of the Discourse) is STARTING OUT with this [NEXT-IN-THE-SEQUENCE-->] "beginning of birth PANGS" (same for the Mk13 record);

and which "BoBPs" are then FOLLOWED by the "AoD" point in time / event [unique to Matt24/Mk13]


[end quoting that post]


____________

It is important to ascertain that a SEQUENCE is being spelled out, in the Olivet Discourse sections.

 

[garee]

Except in "prophecy" and by use of the "proleptic 'you'" (meaning, 'all those in the future OF THE SAME CATEGORY,' and in the case of the Olivet Discourse, Jesus is speaking to 'a people' TO WHOM the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom [as we call it today] was promised!)

Prophecy. . the declared the will of another. "

Prophetic the revealing of prophecy, past, present and future.

No sign as wonders "future prophecy" is given. Its an evil, faithless generation that seeks after one. We walk by faith the unseen (eternal)

The sign of Jonas was fulfilled with the Son of man . No need to wonder rather than exercising faith according to prophecy, Marvel not but rather believe.

Luke 11:29 And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.

 

[Kolistus]

(meaning there are TWO distinct "SEE-then-FLEE" events [one in 70ad, the other "far future"], that RESEMBLE each other in several ways, but that are also described DISTINCTLY

Can you show me this two separate see-then-flee events? I am very much ready to learn about this.

 

[Dino246]

No sign as wonders "future prophecy" is given.

It really would be helpful for you to learn how to convey your thoughts in a way that others can easily understand. Given the context, your statement appears to be saying that there is no such thing as prophetic foretelling of future events. Is that what you mean?

 

[Truth7t7]

There is absolutely no way that you can say that without adding to the text. The text does not say "the generation that see's these things will not pass away until ALL these things come to pass". He only said "THIS GENERATION" looking those people in the eye, answering the people that just asked Him "when will these things come to pass.

Honestly I believe Jesus and believe the end of that, "AGE" not "WORLD", took place in 70 AD when His temple was removed off this earth in the promised judgement of the covenant breakers after redemption of the fallen world, just like He said, but....

I'm not here to argue that, all I'm saying is that you have to admit that you are adding to the text to support you're view here. We are supposed to draw from text, not add to. In order to make this verse mean what you just said it means you HAVE to add "the generation that see's these things", which honestly doesn't even make sense as an answer to the people asking Him when you honestly look at it in context without bringing your view first. Anyway I hear this view often and just couldn't disagree in your meaning for it more, respectfully. It's just not what Jesus says, when He could have easily said that.

I Strongly Disagree

Your Preterist Assumption Is False, The Disciples Asked Two Questions As Seen Below

1.) Sign Of The Second Coming

2.) Sign Of End Of The World

Jimbone, (The Great Tribulation) seen in Matthew 24:21 didn't take place in 70AD

Jimbone, (The Second Coming) as seen below didn't take place in 70AD

Jimbone, (The Great Tribulation) and (Second Coming) of Jesus Christ in the clouds of heaven are (Future) events, as Jesus Christ will return immediately after a (Future) Great Tribulation upon this earth.

Jimbone, the end of this world is a (Future) event.

Matthew 24:3KJV
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

[Northwind80]

I Strongly Disagree

Your Preterist Assumption Is False, The Disciples Asked Two Questions As Seen Below

1.) Sign Of The Second Coming

2.) Sign Of End Of The World

Jimbone, (The Great Tribulation) seen in Matthew 24:21 didn't take place in 70AD

Jimbone, (The Second Coming) as seen below didn't take place in 70AD

Jimbone, (The Great Tribulation) and (Second Coming) of Jesus Christ in the clouds of heaven are (Future) events, as Jesus Christ will return immediately after a (Future) Great Tribulation upon this earth.

Jimbone, the end of this world is a (Future) event.

Matthew 24:3KJV
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

This guy just keeps saying what he believes without providing any explanation. And he doesn’t believe that the historical and grammatical context is important to understanding the Bible. Which shows that he doesn’t understand the most basic principles of how communication works.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

Okay, let me see if I understand your point.

Are you saying that the references to "the end [singular] of the age [singular]" in Matthew 13 (several references to this phrase) are themselves each speaking of events [possibly / potentially] several thousands of years apart? Like, in one instance (in Matt13) it refers to the events surrounding 70ad, and in another instance (in Matt13) it refers to events "far-future"? Or are you meaning something else? (my apologies for my dense-ness )

Because a phrase can only ever have one usage in language, and context don't matter.

 

[Truth7t7]

This guy just keeps saying what he believes without providing any explanation. And he doesn’t believe that the historical and grammatical context is important to understanding the Bible. Which shows that he doesn’t understand the most basic principles of how communication works.

God has communicated in scripture below, that's simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

Jesus Christ Returns In The Clouds Of Heaven (Literally) After A (Future) Great Tribulation.

You Nor Any Other Person Will Remove The Facts Seen Below

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

[Northwind80]

And you lack the willingness to see if the meaning that is clear in your head is actually supported by the rules of language that the Holy Spirit chose to use when he wrote about the history of Matthew 24.

 

[Blade]

Matthew 24:27-31; Mark 13:24-27; Luke 21:25-28:
[explains about second coming of Jesus]

Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 21:32:
"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place."

Does it mean that, the second coming (as explained in Matt 24:27-31) was expected during the same generation when Jesus lived?

What I believe is the generation that sees those things happening all at once will not pass away. They will see Christs return. There was much written about Israel as a nation when it was no nation. But we saw this happen. We saw as it is written Israel become a nation in a day. Now we see it really blooming. We have seen earth quakes and storms and the sea roar through out time. Are we seeing those things happen all at once? Now just look whats happening in the world today. You will get in trouble just believing Marriage is only between man and woman.

The Father controls time so this can last one more min or another 30 years and still be in line with His word. We should always be ready looking for Him. He is coming.. soon.

 

[Truth7t7]

What I believe is the generation that sees those things happening all at once will not pass away. They will see Christs return. There was much written about Israel as a nation when it was no nation. But we saw this happen. We saw as it is written Israel become a nation in a day. Now we see it really blooming. We have seen earth quakes and storms and the sea roar through out time. Are we seeing those things happen all at once? Now just look whats happening in the world today. You will get in trouble just believing Marriage is only between man and woman.

The Father controls time so this can last one more min or another 30 years and still be in line with His word. We should always be ready looking for Him. He is coming.. soon.

I Agree, The Generation That Will Witness The (Future) Great Tribulation, And Actually See The Glorious Second Coming Described Below.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.