Jesus was not only GOD but the GOD-MAN.

[awelight]

Really jcollins, did you not read what I said/ask? Your trying to do to much and its taken its toll on you. Your addressing to many questions from others and it is obvious you cannot keep up. Take your time and thing.

My question is this? You say Jesus is NOT God. If He is not God like you say then why does John 1;3 say that "All things have been created by Him? How can this man create anything since only God is the creator?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Hi bluto,

I really think you are wasting your time with jcollins. I hope you don't mind me butting into the two of your conversation. His views are pure humanism and to continue with him is like tossing pearls before swine, if you know what I mean.

I joined this forum thinking that it would be a place to discuss Scripture but have found thus far, few use Scripture. How can this be a discussion about the Bible when so few are willing to discuss it. Any true discussion, will use Scripture to understand Scripture. Unfortunately, we all bring a little prejudice and subjectivism into a conversation but this is because we are not perfect. I find it disheartening when questions are posed and then ignored. Points are made but they are discarded without response. Is not the purpose of a discussion about Scripture to be for our edification and growth.

I guess I should not be surprised, considering the state of the churches and religion in general. For it seems anything goes today. Conviction is confused with argumentation. Where Truth is purely subjective and the objective source is ignored.

Thank you for defending Jesus Christ as God, our Lord, our King, our High Priest.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Thank you, Bluto, for your contribution to the discussion. Which is what it is. From this standpoint i will assemble my best response. If you believe the lord of the old testament (jehovah) is god you are required to live according to his laws. In the new testament a posit is made that men cannot achieve this.

Read Romans 7:1-4 -

1 Or are you ignorant brothers (for I speak to those knowing the law), that the law rules over the man for as long as the time he is alive? 2 For the married woman is bound by law to the living husband; but if the husband should die, she is cleared from the law of the husband. 3 So then, if she is to another man, the husband being alive, she will be called an adulteress; but if the husband should die, she is free from the law, so as for her not to be an adulteress, having been to another man.

4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have been put to death to the Law through [/BY MEANS OF] the body of Christ, for you to belong to Another, to the One having been raised out from the dead, so that we should bear fruit to God.


[note: the Law was given to a specific people, namely, to Israel. You and I are not Israel. We are called to "correctly apportion the word of truth" and to "distinguish the things that differ"... you are I have not been instructed to build an ark, for example. ]

If jehovah was god and christ is gods son, and judeaism is the worship of jehovah, why dont they use the new testament? Now, i will go one step futher and say, ALL this information and the bible is spurious and esoteric. If you arent using it to understand life and humanity and suffering, but to understand god, all the paths therein end in death.

This ^ doesn't make entire sense to me in view of Colossians 2:2-3 -

"2 that their hearts may be encouraged, having been knit together in love, and to all the riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the knowledge [G1922 epignosin] of the mystery of God, which is Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and of knowledge."

 

[jcollins]

what was your question?

Ok, The heavens declare the glory of God, the skies proclaim the work of his hands.- The law of the lord is perfect, reviving the soul-by them is your servant warned. God presides in the great assembly, he gives judgement among the gods. O lord, other lords beside you have ruled over us, but your name alone do we revere. i will call her loved who is not my love and those mine who are not mine. See, the lord is going to lay waste the earth and devastate it- The earth will be totally plundered and laid waste- The lord has spoken this word.
Behold i come like a thief in the night. For you yourselves know the day of the lord will come like a theif in the night. But understand this; if the owner of the house had known when the thief was coming, he would not have let his house be broken into. I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.

 

[fredoheaven]

Let me try this then- If christ is God then God is man, part of the creation- but god made everything, then he made man.
but- If God was christ and we are of christ then we are part of what was made like everything else and God is distinct from the creation.
-and as soon as he came up from the water of Johns baptism, the holy spirit descended upon him and when he had breathed his last, he gave up the spirit.

Here is scriptural derived in John 1:1-2, 14

Christ is the Word, and the Word was God. The Word was made flesh. If God was the Word who is Christ who was made flesh, then Christ is both God-man. The pre-incarnate Christ is the Creator and is not a part of creation. God manifest in the flesh is mystery revealed for God is the God of impossible.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Ok, [...]
Behold i come like a thief in the night.

You added that phrase (in bold) into the text of Revelation 16:15-16. Instead, He said, "Behold I come as a thief" [end of sentence. ] This is distinct from the other phrase below which is talking about the arrival point of the TIME PERIOD known as the Day of the Lord (a very lengthy time period, of much duration, with much transpiring within it). These are to be distinguished... as they are not referring to the "same exact MOMENT" in time (regarding the ARRIVAL of each of these).

For you yourselves know the day of the lord will come like a theif in the night.

Yes, the TIME PERIOD (the DOTL time period) *will* ARRIVE such.

But understand this; if the owner of the house had known when the thief was coming, he would not have let his house be broken into. [...]

The answer is in His Word (the Bible),

... but we know that many will disregard His Word (and/or His messengers who bring it [/will be bringing it]), just as in Noah's day (as Matthew 24 and Luke 17 inform us). [note: the CONTEXT of that passage being with regard to His Second Coming to the earth, Rev19 / Rev16:15-16... (not "our Rapture" point in time)]

 

[Corban]

Now I thank you for the kind words but you seem to want to be argumentative about this point. I already said clearly, that these points were given as a way to TEST ones relationship to Christ. if one failed the TEST then he/she would not be a Christian. Very simple concept. I was not talking about what is required for salvation. Take the thief on the cross, how much time did he have to learn the things of his Savior? Hardly any, that we know but he was still saved.

Again, this is for those who profess this or that, so as, to test themselves as Scripture commands:

(2Cor. 13:5) Try your own selves, whether ye are in the faith; prove your own selves. Or know ye not as to your own selves, that Jesus Christ is in you? unless indeed ye be reprobate.

OK. All clear. Take care.

 

[jcollins]

Hi bluto,

I really think you are wasting your time with jcollins. I hope you don't mind me butting into the two of your conversation. His views are pure humanism and to continue with him is like tossing pearls before swine, if you know what I mean.

I joined this forum thinking that it would be a place to discuss Scripture but have found thus far, few use Scripture. How can this be a discussion about the Bible when so few are willing to discuss it. Any true discussion, will use Scripture to understand Scripture. Unfortunately, we all bring a little prejudice and subjectivism into a conversation but this is because we are not perfect. I find it disheartening when questions are posed and then ignored. Points are made but they are discarded without response. Is not the purpose of a discussion about Scripture to be for our edification and growth.

I guess I should not be surprised, considering the state of the churches and religion in general. For it seems anything goes today. Conviction is confused with argumentation. Where Truth is purely subjective and the objective source is ignored.

Thank you for defending Jesus Christ as God, our Lord, our King, our High Priest.

John 1:3 says all things were created through him. Ironically, if you convinced me Christ is God, rather than God was christ, if i didn't change my behavior, then you would be wasting your time, but what is it you suggest i do to glorify God?
Let nothing be wasted, awelight. I believe the proper dismissive for christs teachings is altruism. If you met jesus would you tell him to keep his pearls to himself? Ignorance and objectivity are cousins- The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against godless men, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.- For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the lord, as the waters fill the sea.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ Jesus said, "For apart from Me you are able to do nothing." John 15:5

 

[Lion222]

I wasnt sure If your response to my post was In agreement with me or not.
Did you read the post that I was following?

Sounded to me like we are In agreement but I wasn't sure because of the the statement

sorry I just reacting to the term irresistible grace.

 

[posthuman]

This is a discussion forum, its come as you are. If God chose to reveal himself on earth as a man and that was the only form of sentience apparent to an observer, and if christ is image of God as a man on earth, how else could it be described?

ah, choices!
you could ask those who had eyes, but were made blind, or you could ask those who had been blind, and were given sight.
you could ask Thomas, who happened to be have observed Him

Jesus said to him,
“because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
(John 20:29)​

​

are you familiar with how observer-Thomas described Jesus, to which description Jesus replies saying "you have believed" ?

 

[posthuman]

Said i did not expect to enlighten anyone or learn anything new from a text i was familiar with.

as i said, you are in luck then, if there are so many wonderful texts you appear to be unfamiliar with

rejoice!

 

[jcollins]

Read Romans 7:1-4 -

1 Or are you ignorant brothers (for I speak to those knowing the law), that the law rules over the man for as long as the time he is alive? 2 For the married woman is bound by law to the living husband; but if the husband should die, she is cleared from the law of the husband. 3 So then, if she is to another man, the husband being alive, she will be called an adulteress; but if the husband should die, she is free from the law, so as for her not to be an adulteress, having been to another man.

4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have been put to death to the Law through [/BY MEANS OF] the body of Christ, for you to belong to Another, to the One having been raised out from the dead, so that we should bear fruit to God.


[note: the Law was given to a specific people, namely, to Israel. You and I are not Israel. We are called to "correctly apportion the word of truth" and to "distinguish the things that differ"... you are I have not been instructed to build an ark, for example. ]




This ^ doesn't make entire sense to me in view of Colossians 2:2-3 -

"2 that their hearts may be encouraged, having been knit together in love, and to all the riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the knowledge [G1922 epignosin] of the mystery of God, which is Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and of knowledge."

The begining of this discussion was: The christ man/god duality debate. In the context on this fragmented debate, I have had to reference the old covenant , so i go on to say paul ran afoul of christ by obeying the torah, which, paul hisself lamented made nothing perfect, and im trying to share my suspicion that someone wanted to attribute suffering and violence to God himself using the bible which goes along way toward explaining the train wreck we live in and since the bible only references God once every 500 pages using the name it gives him- elohim anyway- if you want to understand why life seems so antithetical to your nature, you can find answers in the bible, but, if you want to know God you will find very little there and WARNING! maybe the one who is responsible for putting christ on the cross is the same one who wrote the end of the world and the death of all humans but couple hundred thousand.

 

[Corban]

This reminds me off the The Parable of the ten virgins...
I was listening last night to a sermon on it , and it really was an eye opener for me...

Five saved , and five thinking they were saved , only to have the door closed on them with words from our Master " I never knew you "
...xox...

Hi Rosemaryx. I think the majority of Christians hold that same view. May I make some observations, not to be argumentative, but just to set the record straight. We're all in a learning process so I don't mind you objecting to anything I write. Here is the text of Matthew 25:1-13:

1 "Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh."

First, some general observations;

1. The ten virgins ALL rose at the coming of the Lord. According to 1st Corinthians 15:23 they must then ALL belong to Him
2. The ten Virgins ALL went forth to meet the Bridegroom. They ALL sought Jesus
3. The ten Virgins were all Virgins. Even after their failure, the five foolish are still called Virgins
4. Virgins in the New Testament are Christians (2nd Cor.11:2)
5. The ten Virgins ALL had Lamps burning. According to Proverbs 20:27 the spirit of man is his Lamp. So the condition spiritually of the five foolish was the same as the five wise
6. The ten Virgins all had OIL in their lamps. Oil, in Type, is the Holy Spirit
7. The ten Virgins ALL slept because the bridegroom delayed. That is, they died

I all these points the Virgins were the SAME. Now, some specific observations;

• The wise Virgins are DIFFERENT in three aspects
• They carried extra oil
• They carried extra oil, not in their lamps, but in their VESSELS
• They understood that extra oil would cost them dearly
• These differences do not address them being Virgins, them seeking the Bridegroom, them having burning Lamps, them being raised together, them being raised when the Bridegroom comes
• Faith and salvation are not mentioned (which would be logical if the foolish were the same as the wise in six aspects).
• The word "KNOW" in verse 12 does not mean intellectual knowledge. The Greek word "eido" means, "to know by sight", or "to know by perception". In Matthew this word, used in 82 verses, is overwhelmingly translated "saw" or "seen". So when our Lord said to them, "I do not KNOW you", it means "I haven't seen you around". It would be like a young woman who was so busy getting her act together for the wedding that she had had no time to spend with her fiancé.
• If the oil typifies the Holy Spirit, then the Virgins all had had the rebirth (Jn.3:6).

The decisive issue was that the foolish Virgins did not PAY for the oil that let them into the Wedding Feast. This point strengthens the fact that FAITH and SALVATION are not mentioned, for they are FREE GIFTS.

I would like to propose the following understanding of the Parable.
The Parable does not address salvation. It plainly says that it addresses the coming Kingdom that our Lord Jesus will set up when He returns. The Parable gives the requirement for being judged a faithful Christian. Over and over the Lord said that to get into the Kingdom, one had to deny himself, lose his "soul-life" and carry his cross daily. This was the PRICE of ENTERING or INHERITING the Kingdom. The Virgins were ALL the same in six crucial aspects. They were only different in the fact that the foolish did not know that a PRICE was to be paid for extra oil. This is not the oil in our spirit, but in our VESSELS. The foolish Virgins were Christians who were so busy with other things that their Fiancé "hadn't seen them around".

Have you bought oil lately? What did you pay for it? And how much time have you spent with your Fiancé lately? I am sometimes amazed. I go the a Church meeting with fellow Christians, then I'm invited to lunch and to stay on and watch the football. Do you know that from Sunday to Sunday, Jesus is never mentioned by them (i) in the Meeting, (ii) at lunch, and (iii) anytime after this. But once there was a young woman also invited. She had just become engaged. All she could talk about was her fiancé. She was starry-eyed in love and could only eat, sleep, dream and think about her fiancé. Is this how Christians feel about their Fiancé?

If this is the first time you hear this understanding, take your time to chew it. If some of my observations are wrong, just discard my version. If my observations are correct ... well ....

 

[jcollins]

Fallacy: non sequitur.

If you want to have an intelligent discussion, using scriptural quotes as insults won't get you there.

For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The begining of this discussion was: The christ man/god duality debate. In the context on this fragmented debate, I have had to reference the old covenant , so i go on to say paul ran afoul of christ by obeying the torah, which, paul hisself lamented made nothing perfect, and im trying to share my suspicion that someone wanted to attribute suffering and violence to God himself using the bible which goes along way toward explaining the train wreck we live in and since the bible only references God once every 500 pages using the name it gives him- elohim anyway-

if you want to understand why life seems so antithetical to your nature, you can find answers in the bible, but, if you want to know God you will find very little there

and WARNING! maybe the one who is responsible for putting christ on the cross is the same one who wrote the end of the world and the death of all humans but couple hundred thousand.

Well, for starters, I think I remember what you put in Post #39 (Page 2):

jcollins said: I also have questions about the new testament, my short answer is; if the devil wrote the bible, God would find a way to make it useful- let nothing be wasted.. Anyway, I wrote these verses to show a contrast b/t christ and pauls' teachings.

Just for clarity, are you saying that you believe "the devil" was behind the writings of the New Testament ONLY [Matthew through Revelation] or behind the writings of BOTH? [Genesis through Revelation], or with the division being between the Gospels and the Epistles (esp those of Paul in particular--since you are pointing out the "distinctions" between these--meaning, do you view the Gospels as "from God" but Paul's epistles having been written "by the devil")?

I am unsure of your intention, could you please clarify?

My view is that the writings (both... ALL OF IT [Genesis thru Revelation]) are supernatural and could therefore not be attributed to "the devil" having written it... I'm just not sure what you are meaning, exactly. If you could clarify, I'd be grateful. Thanks! = )

 

[Dino246]

For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart

Clearly you aren't interested in having a discussion, but rather you want to assuage your guilty conscience by throwing shade at me.

I have one word to say to you in response:


YAWN.

 

[bluto]

John 1:3 says all things were created through him. Ironically, if you convinced me Christ is God, rather than God was christ, if i didn't change my behavior, then you would be wasting your time, but what is it you suggest i do to glorify God?
Let nothing be wasted, awelight. I believe the proper dismissive for christs teachings is altruism. If you met jesus would you tell him to keep his pearls to himself? Ignorance and objectivity are cousins- The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against godless men, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.- For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the lord, as the waters fill the sea.

Look jcollins, your doing it again, changing the subject. You just made a blanket statement that John 1:3 says "all things were created through him." Then you go on this tangent about your behavior and changing it etc. Yes the word at John 1:3 is "through" but my Bible says, "by" Him. Obviously your not aware of the difference between those two words "by" and "through." By means "by" Him all things were created. The word "through" denotes that Jesus Christ was the "means" that everything was created.

And another thing, I am not here to convince you of anything. However, I can tell by your attitude that your closed minded and unwilling to learn. It's God that does the change but you need to quit going off on these tangents of changing the subject and like I said be more openminded.

At Matthew 16:13 Jesus ask His disciples, "Who do people say that I am?" At vs16 Peter says, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." Guess what Jesus says at vs17, "flesh and blood din not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven." Notice it doesn't says, "bluto was the one that revealed this to you."

We don't need all this extra commentary/baggage from you about "The wrath of God is being revealed etc. The truth is that right now the "wrath" of God is on you if you don't take Him seriously and pay attention. Trust me, I've been a Christian 59 years now and I know what I'm talking about. When I ask questions it's for a reason and I don't let anybody off the hook by changing the subject and talking about other things that have nothing to do with the question. You want to know Jesus Christ and who He is, listen to Him. This is big league stuff because your eternal soul is on the line, so I suggest you take it seriously.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[garee]

Garee, this is an indication of your BIZARRE THEOLOGY.

Jesus is the GOD-MAN -- the Man Christ Jesus -- who is both the Son of Man and the Son of God.

Perhaps you could ask questions ?

LOL

What you are offering sounds just as bizarre as what you are accrediting to me. Study to show oneself approved unto God .

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

The above verse applies to the Son of man, Jesus the first born among brothers and sister in Christ just as us son of man in other scriptures is refence to apostles who declare the will of another called prophets

There are godly men, God working in Man. (2 Corinthians 4:7) But no GOD MAN. And no fleshly infallible interpreter as a umpire (daysman) that sits between God not seen and man seen

Job 9:32-33 For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment. Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both.

What is bizarre is that men think God is a man rather than he works in men . Jesus as a a apostle was a man sent to the will of the father ,he had no power of His own. (2 Corinthians 4:7) He was strengthened by the father that worked in Jesus to both will and do the good pleasure of the father. He did not do the desires or the lust of the flesh.

Before he left he reminded us the one time demonstration of the unseen work of the father (the flesh profits for zero)The demonstration is over. We walk by faith the unseen God who works in us..

2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

A little homework for you, reconcile the three verses.

All flesh is corrupted. His flesh typified as sinful a must, is not longer here. And no man has received the propmised new body .

 

[jcollins]

ah, choices!
you could ask those who had eyes, but were made blind, or you could ask those who had been blind, and were given sight.
you could ask Thomas, who happened to be have observed Him

Jesus said to him, ​

“because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” ​

(John 20:29)​

​

are you familiar with how observer-Thomas described Jesus, to which description Jesus replies saying "you have believed" ?

Do you mean his saying christ was the lord and god? Yes, i read that too. Do you realize this very discuss is the mechanism used to justify the slaying of christ?.... John 12 16- At first his disciples did not understand. Only after Jesus was glorified did they realize / they had done these things to him. ? Oh, your back to the Jesus was God thing. Since your referencing one who did not recognize christ in himself-

Lets try isaiah 53 4, Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows yet we considered him stricken by God, he was pierced for our transgressions/ by his wounds we are healed.
One more Philippians 2 6 Who being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped/ that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow/ confessing that Christ is lord, to the glory of God the Father.

So, Job was written in 1400 B.C. and from then till christ appeared, the lord is synonymous with vengeance, violence, abasement and division of mankind by nation, tribe, language and lineage, for sending lying prophets to his wicked kings and feeding their armies to the birds. 1400 years. Then christ appears, rejects some of the laws, rejects the religion, heals people and teaches what the holy spirit is like. Says God is his father and renounces the things the Israelites were attributing to Gods will. Now the bible will blame the isrealites for his death...

btw- The church doesn't even ask you to accept christ as God, saying, Do you accept christ as your lord and savior...

For me these arguements are meant to confuse and trap men with their words and beliefs, by changing their behaviors and they only engender harder questions and usually, more effort and study. I don't think, while we are in the world we will ever be free of doubt and concern as long as our lives remain oppressed and our attitudes are poor, toward life and each other.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Yea there is this guy and he really really loves you.
But you don't want him.
So he forces himself on you and takes you against your will with his irresistible grace.

To me a maligning of Gods character if it in any way it removes your freedom to choose to resist him.

If you have no choice but to embrace Him, then any embrace means nothing.

If you just mean to say that Gods love is so good its hard to resist, then say that.
Irresistible ~ forced love sounds like rape, and that is not God.
But because of a man made doctrine and vain philosophizing and getting away from the words of scripture on t he matter we have this steaming pile of logic to deal with.

I agree with your definition of Irresistible grace I think Irresistible grace Is the same as Calvinism because they believe that some are destined to be saved whether they want to or not.