Jesus was not only GOD but the GOD-MAN.
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Conversion, like our sanctification (setting ourselves apart for Christ), is an ongoing experience. Conversion is not only the renewing of our minds but also the putting away of the old man and becoming a new creation in Christ. The more we grow in Grace and Knowledge, the more we become Christ like. Regeneration is all of God. Conversion is an ongoing process throughout our temporal existence, a process worked out by us with the help of the Holy Spirit.
PS Sorry I did not respond to you earlier, I am trying to keep up with individuals who have serious and genuine questions. Like the ones you are posing here. Hope you understand? Take care.
PS Sorry I did not respond to you earlier, I am trying to keep up with individuals who have serious and genuine questions. Like the ones you are posing here. Hope you understand? Take care.
A simple statement from me. If you do not believe Jesus Christ is God, then you deny John 1:1-2., as well as many other passages. This tells me you either have not studied the Holy Scriptures or you still need something you do not have. To believe that Christ is not God, is heresy. On this I make no apology.
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Brother, your initial posting contained many truths - truths that show a good working knowledge of the Bible. I dare say that you are not shocked at what I said because you never addressed what I wrote.
What you did address though, I have no disagreement with. But consider this; The verses you quoted do not have to do with "saving knowledge". They were a mixture of Old Testament and New Testament scriptures that insist that the Israelite, and later the Christian, love His God. But in this you already admit that they are God's people. That is, the Israelite must be BORN of the line of Isaac and Jacob and when he begins to comprehend his God, he must love Him. Likewise, the Christian must first be BORN of the Spirit, and then only is he instructed to love His God. Love in both cases does not effect the BIRTH. It comes AFTERWARDS.
What you did address though, I have no disagreement with. But consider this; The verses you quoted do not have to do with "saving knowledge". They were a mixture of Old Testament and New Testament scriptures that insist that the Israelite, and later the Christian, love His God. But in this you already admit that they are God's people. That is, the Israelite must be BORN of the line of Isaac and Jacob and when he begins to comprehend his God, he must love Him. Likewise, the Christian must first be BORN of the Spirit, and then only is he instructed to love His God. Love in both cases does not effect the BIRTH. It comes AFTERWARDS.
We may have missed what each one of us was trying to get at. I was not referring to what would save a person, I was referring to a person who claimed salvation but knew not love. But did you say that love was a work? Or did I misunderstand you? Love is something we believers have to work at, as the fruit of the Spirit but is not a work for salvation, rather it is a test of salvation.
Hi jcollins! Let's assume for the moment that Jesus Christ is not God. It says at Isaiah 44:24 the following: "Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, I, the Lord, am the maker of ALL things, Stretching out the heavens BY MYSEL And spreading out the earth ALL ALONE." It could not be more clear that the Lord God created all thing alone and by Himself.
Now look at John 1:3 referring to Jesus Christ. "ALL things came into being BY HIM, (now watch this part jcollings,) and APART from Him (or without Jesus Christ) NOTHING came into being that has come into being." Since God created all things alone and by Himself, why would He need the man only who is not God according to you need any help in creating things and WITHOUT Jesus nothin has come into being. How do you explain this? How do you reconcile this apparent contradiction from Isaiah 44:24 and here at John 1:3?
And, to make matters even worse for you, perhaps you can explain Colossians 1:16, "For by Him/Jesus Christ ALL things were created, both in the heavens and on the earth, (I thought Isaiah said God stretched the heavens and the earth by Himself), visible and invisible, whether thrones of dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created by Him and for Him."
You want some more bad news for you? Hebrews 1:10 where God the Father of Jesus Christ is speaking about His Son. "Thou, Lord in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of Thy hands." So my question still stands. Why is Jesus Christ who you say is not God clearly identified in the scriptures above as the creator?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Now look at John 1:3 referring to Jesus Christ. "ALL things came into being BY HIM, (now watch this part jcollings,) and APART from Him (or without Jesus Christ) NOTHING came into being that has come into being." Since God created all things alone and by Himself, why would He need the man only who is not God according to you need any help in creating things and WITHOUT Jesus nothin has come into being. How do you explain this? How do you reconcile this apparent contradiction from Isaiah 44:24 and here at John 1:3?
And, to make matters even worse for you, perhaps you can explain Colossians 1:16, "For by Him/Jesus Christ ALL things were created, both in the heavens and on the earth, (I thought Isaiah said God stretched the heavens and the earth by Himself), visible and invisible, whether thrones of dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created by Him and for Him."
You want some more bad news for you? Hebrews 1:10 where God the Father of Jesus Christ is speaking about His Son. "Thou, Lord in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of Thy hands." So my question still stands. Why is Jesus Christ who you say is not God clearly identified in the scriptures above as the creator?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
I understand that more that he claimed to be a apostle sent by God. And not sent to do the will of the corrupted flesh. It would prove to not be of the father . The father not seen worked in the Son of man to both will and do the good pleasure of God .The father provided the power.
1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
Mr. Collins, you do sound rather confused. It is Christ -- the eternal Word of God -- who is the Creator, and He is the one who also created the first man Adam (John 1:1-3). But He has always been -- and always will be -- God.
At the same time, because of Adam's disobedience, the Word chose to become "the second Adam" (the last Adam) by taking human form. But He always remained the God-Man who would die for the sins of the whole world. Thus the Creator became a human being -- Jesus of Nazareth. That is the only way that He could die, and then rise again.
At the same time, because of Adam's disobedience, the Word chose to become "the second Adam" (the last Adam) by taking human form. But He always remained the God-Man who would die for the sins of the whole world. Thus the Creator became a human being -- Jesus of Nazareth. That is the only way that He could die, and then rise again.
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In your OP, which I appreciated very much in the things you revealed about our Lord Jesus, you made the following observation. Quote
I think that the average murderer, abused person, sinner, soldier and/or thief who turns to Christ, and, as Romans 10:9-10 tells;
9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation"
... does not need to love Christ as you stipulated for "saving knowledge". Love, as we know, has three words in the Greek. "Eros" - the attraction of, or toward a person who attracts, "philadelphia" - brotherly love or the love between two persons, and "agape" - the divine and perfect love that is God's nature. "Eros" does not come into the equation because we do not know Christ "according to the flesh" (2nd Cor.5:16). So a newly confessed believer must undergo a process whereby he/she falls in love with Christ (philadelphia). Falling in love needs the process of getting to know the person and deeply appreciating their attributes. In fact "philadelphia" is a mystery. Can anyone explain why I love my wife and not any one of the other (eligible) women I have ever met? Be that as it may, the point I make is that loving Christ is not "saving knowledge".
Needless to say to a man of your Bible knowledge, when we are born again, we receive Christ in His fullness to us (Col.2:10). And as we eat Christ, study Him and behold Him, we are transformed (2nd Cor.3:18) and He is "formed" in our hearts (Gal.4:19; Eph.3:17). That is, His nature, over the years, if we nurse a close relationship with Him, permeates us, and towards the end of our lives, we can love Him perfectly with "agape". But, as I pointed out in a previous posting, "agape" is the last stage of "adding attributes" (2n Pet.1:7). In this case it is not that we have fallen in love with Him, but that His nature, which is love, has permeated, or been formed in our souls.
I believe that the process of getting saved is very short and simple - as Romans 10 above says. It is to be noted that the thief on the cross next to Jesus at first joined the mockers (Matt.27:44). It was some time later in that six hour bracket that the one thief had a complete change of heart. As he hung in the same physical agony as our Lord Jesus, he uttered few words. He also did not live long enough to learn of all the things you posted in your OP. But he is immediately accepted by the Lord. "Saving knowledge" is not "comprehensive knowledge". It is the sudden dawning, or realization, of Who this Person Jesus is, and the subsequent confession of it.
I think that the average murderer, abused person, sinner, soldier and/or thief who turns to Christ, and, as Romans 10:9-10 tells;
9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation"
... does not need to love Christ as you stipulated for "saving knowledge". Love, as we know, has three words in the Greek. "Eros" - the attraction of, or toward a person who attracts, "philadelphia" - brotherly love or the love between two persons, and "agape" - the divine and perfect love that is God's nature. "Eros" does not come into the equation because we do not know Christ "according to the flesh" (2nd Cor.5:16). So a newly confessed believer must undergo a process whereby he/she falls in love with Christ (philadelphia). Falling in love needs the process of getting to know the person and deeply appreciating their attributes. In fact "philadelphia" is a mystery. Can anyone explain why I love my wife and not any one of the other (eligible) women I have ever met? Be that as it may, the point I make is that loving Christ is not "saving knowledge".
Needless to say to a man of your Bible knowledge, when we are born again, we receive Christ in His fullness to us (Col.2:10). And as we eat Christ, study Him and behold Him, we are transformed (2nd Cor.3:18) and He is "formed" in our hearts (Gal.4:19; Eph.3:17). That is, His nature, over the years, if we nurse a close relationship with Him, permeates us, and towards the end of our lives, we can love Him perfectly with "agape". But, as I pointed out in a previous posting, "agape" is the last stage of "adding attributes" (2n Pet.1:7). In this case it is not that we have fallen in love with Him, but that His nature, which is love, has permeated, or been formed in our souls.
I believe that the process of getting saved is very short and simple - as Romans 10 above says. It is to be noted that the thief on the cross next to Jesus at first joined the mockers (Matt.27:44). It was some time later in that six hour bracket that the one thief had a complete change of heart. As he hung in the same physical agony as our Lord Jesus, he uttered few words. He also did not live long enough to learn of all the things you posted in your OP. But he is immediately accepted by the Lord. "Saving knowledge" is not "comprehensive knowledge". It is the sudden dawning, or realization, of Who this Person Jesus is, and the subsequent confession of it.
Thank you, Bluto, for your contribution to the discussion. Which is what it is. From this standpoint i will assemble my best response. If you believe the lord of the old testament (jehovah) is god you are required to live according to his laws. In the new testament a posit is made that men cannot achieve this. If you think Paul was the mans man and as pious as a wooden yamaka then know despite being flawless in his execution of the law, christ still found fault in him. Indeed, does it speak to your heart to watch men beat someone to death, according to law? Do you think a man who kills a man is the devils pawn and deserves to be killed? Or do you think a man does not wish to kill a man, but is tempted to do so wrongly. Who then tempted pauls men to kill Stephen?
If you you thought christ was the embodiment of law, in as much as we are all men, made in Gods image all facing the same common problems and have felt the urge to liberate a foul persons eyeballs from their home, but resisted, even if said home wanted to do you harm, in contravention to the law and found a resonance in christs grace and mercy, then your behavior and the law you abide by will be quite different. In fact if you try to enforce those laws, you will die in your sins.
It is a philosophy and a trap to deny God his omnipresence and relegate him to a flesh form. If god fills heaven and earth and cannot reside even in gilded cedar/stone temples his being cannot surely be crammed in one fleshy bipod. It is not a philosophy to say while you are on earth, and you are a man, you are meant to be christ and not paul or even king david. When you emulate christ, even though your operating system is corrupt(and everyone else too) you teach the world or whomever, what is means to be a human being.
The bible is full of goadings some of divinity some of righteousness, some are traps and pits and snares . If jehovah was god and christ is gods son, and judeaism is the worship of jehovah, why dont they use the new testament? Now, i will go one step futher and say, ALL this information and the bible is spurious and esoteric. If you arent using it to understand life and humanity and suffering, but to understand god, all the paths therein end in death. If you want a list of relevant bible verses, i can make one, but it would take a long time so, i started inside the first black cover and read to other one.
If you you thought christ was the embodiment of law, in as much as we are all men, made in Gods image all facing the same common problems and have felt the urge to liberate a foul persons eyeballs from their home, but resisted, even if said home wanted to do you harm, in contravention to the law and found a resonance in christs grace and mercy, then your behavior and the law you abide by will be quite different. In fact if you try to enforce those laws, you will die in your sins.
It is a philosophy and a trap to deny God his omnipresence and relegate him to a flesh form. If god fills heaven and earth and cannot reside even in gilded cedar/stone temples his being cannot surely be crammed in one fleshy bipod. It is not a philosophy to say while you are on earth, and you are a man, you are meant to be christ and not paul or even king david. When you emulate christ, even though your operating system is corrupt(and everyone else too) you teach the world or whomever, what is means to be a human being.
The bible is full of goadings some of divinity some of righteousness, some are traps and pits and snares . If jehovah was god and christ is gods son, and judeaism is the worship of jehovah, why dont they use the new testament? Now, i will go one step futher and say, ALL this information and the bible is spurious and esoteric. If you arent using it to understand life and humanity and suffering, but to understand god, all the paths therein end in death. If you want a list of relevant bible verses, i can make one, but it would take a long time so, i started inside the first black cover and read to other one.
o͝orēəs/