I'm not sure what you're getting at with John 3:16-17, but considering Paul wrote Romans and continued to write exhortation to press on in the faith it doesn't speak to having a greater degree of assurance than he did.
Eternal Security - Most dangerous words ever preached: Once saved, always saved.
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EleventhHour
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EleventhHour
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EleventhHour
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We quench the Spirit when we do not believe this ....
For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.
2 Cor 5:21.
And there is no loss of salvation if we quench the Spirit.
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EleventhHour
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The words of Jesus are clear. And I am well aware that a outright denial of these words is necessary to make your system work.
Here yes let us search the scripture...........
The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever.
1 John 2:17
The "world of the elect" its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever.
Denial the words of Jesus is what I see.
Really, you can see by the context that I obviously created a typo. Not "nut", should have been "But". In addition, what you said about me, shows you nothing of me,. Never been a member before, so never banned. So typical though, when one cannot defend what they believe from the Scriptures, they make the attacks personal. Not a very good example of the walk of a Christian.
I hate labels, "calvinist", I agree with Calvin where he has the truth and don't when he misses the boat. If what Calvin had to say is Biblically correct, then okay, if not, forget it. The same you would do with any mans opinion. But God's Word is God's Word, let Scripture interpret Scripture. Since you like labels, you must be an Armenian.
Considering the preceding sentiment before Paul spoke of pressing on in Philippians, the thing that he said he had not yet attained, was:
that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. (Philippians 3:10-11)
Paul may have been saved, but he didn't treat it as a bygone fact. He urged the Philippians, a church that seems to have been largely healthy, to press on. To further pursue the things of God so that when their course was finished they would hear "well done my good and faithful servant."
The idea that somehow upon confessing the faith we can simply rest in our laurels is foreign to the bulk of the NT and requires taking single verses out of context as absolute on the issue.
We must do this from a secure place knowing God will not reject or forsake us, but we must still jealously guard our hearts not allowing a shred of impurity to creep in and pollute us.
I agree about man being able to choose, except for the term itself, free will.
Real freedom happens when man operates under God.
Take any addiction, and you see what I mean. A person in any habitual sin is enslaved and controlled by sin, and not free.
So if we use the term "free will" it might shift us away from the biblical paradigm unintendedly.
God looses the prisoners, breaks prison walls, etc.
I stopped using the term "free will" (thank you Magenta!) and call that choice possibility "man's will (or choice)" and am open to hear a yet better term if there is any...
Nicely stated, it is good to see that someone understands the meaning of words. Man's will is a very good place to put our abilities.
Just as an added help for others, here is the primary definition for the english word "FREE" .... "Not bound by restrictions, physical, governmental or moral; exempt from arbitrary domination or distinction; totally independent.", as defined in the 1969 edition of the Funk & Wagnalls. Obviously, if we believe in a Sovereign God, this cannot apply to us.
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EleventhHour
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I agree about man being able to choose, except for the term itself, free will.
Real freedom happens when man operates under God.
Take any addiction, and you see what I mean. A person in any habitual sin is enslaved and controlled by sin, and not free.
So if we use the term "free will" it might shift us away from the biblical paradigm unintendedly.
God looses the prisoners, breaks prison walls, etc.
I stopped using the term "free will" (thank you Magenta!) and call that choice possibility "man's will (or choice)" and am open to hear a yet better term if there is any...
I see the word "free" as essential.
Without it we enter the world of strict cause and effect and man cannot be held accountable for his actions.
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EleventhHour
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Yes, this works well to support the doctrine of Total Inability.
I keep thinking about these things and I want to sit on it some more and I'll come back with some Scriptures later.
I agree that accountability must never be eliminated from the picture. Definitions of words in the world vs the Bible worldview are the real the problem here, I think.
That is COMPLETELY FALSE. Just one verse should suffice, but there are scores of verses in which Paul showed us that salvation (justification) is an accomplished fact for the one who believes.
Therefore being [HAVING BEEN] justified by faith, we [PRESENTLY] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ (Rom 5:1)
Why do we have peace with God? Because when He justifies us, he accounts (or imputes) our faith for righteousness (Romans 4). Additionally He places the robe of the righteousness of Christ upon us by His grace. Furthermore, He gives us the gift of the Holy Spirit + the gift of Christ + the gift of God Himself + the gift of eternal life + the New Birth + the indwelling Holy Spirit + the sealing of the Spirit + the empowering of the Spirit + the remission of sins + the washing of the soul in the blood of Christ + a new heart and a new spirit + the inner witness of the Spirit + the baptism with the Spirit + the baptism by the Spirit.
Do you now see why Paul treated salvation as an accomplished fact?
Again with a verse completely devoid of its context. What does Paul follow up that statement with?
through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and [b]we exult in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only this, but [c]we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; 5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us. (Romans 5:2-5)
So even where Paul speaks of justification as a thing of the past he emphasizes the continued need to continue in faith by stating we have merely had an introduction and that it is through perseverance that hope is born.
The distinction is two-fold in that justification is a thing of the past in that it was accomplished at the cross, but our personal justification is something we must work out as we journey with the Lord.
I will also add that it's a bit irksome you keep taking single lines from my comments without the post that informs what I am saying and attacking things beside what I am actually saying.
Scripture states, “For God so loved the world“ but you’re hesitant on that foundational Truth. That’s pretty sad.
As far as labels go, Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior. Put any label you want on that, I couldn’t care less.
This is Part 1 of a 2 Part Post:
I had asked for you to please expound upon the Finished work on the cross, but I see a huge conundrum with your post, where you present the "Object Of Faith" to be associated with good works, performed by man, with selected portions of passages, taken out of context from the Bible, that have to do with the subject of good works, which although are instruction in righteousness, but have absolutely nothing to do with the work of salvation, and whether you realize it or not, you have confusingly worked them in to inadvertently tie good works in with salvation, as such is the case with your repeated reference to Romans 6:1-14.
The "Finished Work" that Jesus Christ did on the cross at Calvary is His work; His death, burial, and resurrection; His being nailed to the cross, nailing our sin unto the cross with Him, with His becoming a curse for us. Not my work; Not your work; Not the Swaggarts' work, nor any other man's work. Even though the Swaggarts and you claim not to teach a works salvation, you all still believe and teach a works salvation, as it made obvious with your linking Romans 6:1-14 as being the "Finished Work of Christ". I also see the word "cross" being substituted in place of the Gospel, (even though the cross of Christ is pertinent with the Biblical Gospel) along with faith in the object of the cross, rather than faith alone in Jesus Christ Himself for salvation, thus bypassing Jesus Christ with "another gospel" of maintaining good works. This is the very same philosophy taught by Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, Mormons, and other false prophet groups, all of which are rooted from the Roman Catholic Church of which works salvation stems from. It is counterfeit Christianity.
Let's begin by looking at more context from Epeshians 2:
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Do you see the distinction between the two? Salvation being a gift from God, which is solely by grace through faith in Jesus Christ APART FROM any works by man? That is what Apostle Paul clarified here, in this passage, as well as in numerous other scriptures to be read in full context of the epistles.
Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
Rom 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
In Philippians 1:6 and in Roman's 9:28, Who did Apostle Paul say it is doing the work in the Christian? Is it not God that is doing the work, and not man? What work is God doing? Is it not the holy work of salvation which is of faith? You see, it's not man doing the work in man, it is God doing the work!
We see that God is doing the work in several passages; Here's another highlight from 2Thessalonians 1:10-12:
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
2Th 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:
2Th 1:12 That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Now, let's take a look at Romans 11:6;
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
In Romans 11:6, What did Apostle Paul say? Does this help you to understand the very important fundamental truth of Grace? Is Grace by works, any works? By continuing in your good works, does that solidify your salvation according to this passage? Of course not!
This is Part 2 of a 2 Part Post:
Now, what if a man does absolutely no work whatsoever at all, but believes on Jesus! Would you say that man is not saved? What did Apostle Paul write by inspiration of The Holy Ghost in Romans 4:5? Let's take a look at that verse to see if it is a prime example of salvation that is solely by grace through faith in Jesus Christ;
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Oh, I will say that good works are important, and that by doing good works, there will be rewards at the Judgement Seat of Jesus Christ, but they have absolutely nothing to do with mankind's salvation.
1Cor 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Cor 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Cor 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Have you ever really given much thought about the types of works that will be burned up in contrast to the works that will not be burned up? Do you see what whatever the works are; they have absolutely no bearing as the very means for salvation?
Now, here is a great example of a good work; Do you suppose that Apostle Paul will receive a reward for his work? Sure he will! But know that his salvation was already secure from the time that Jesus saved him in Acts 8-9
1Cor 9:1 Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?
Furthermore, Apostle Paul continually encouraged good works for the Brethren, in each passage; And it is worthy to mention that these are works that will not be burned up.
1Cor 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
1Cor 16:10 Now if Timotheus come, see that he may be with you without fear: for he worketh the work of the Lord, as I also do.
2Cor 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:
Col 1:10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
There are a multitude of other verses and passages of scripture relating to the important subject of good works, but now, let's examine a few more passages to hammer the nails into the coffin of the false teaching and notion of keeping good works as means for salvation:
The first example I want to use for someone that had gotten involved in terrible sin is found in 1Corithians 5. Let's take a look to see 1. The extent of the sin; 2. What instruction Apostle Paul gave concerning what to do with the individual; 3. What was said about the state of the individual's salvation and was salvation lost? (Read the full context for the chastisement given to the Church there that was condoning the sin, and be blessed by the godly counsel that Apostle Paul gave!)
1Cor 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
1Cor 5:2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
1Cor 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
1Cor 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Cor 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
As ingregious as the incestual sin was, and with the severity of the necessary punishment, did the man lose his salvation? Absolutely not! Those are works that will be burned up, yet his soul shall be saved, as if by fire! I don't know about you, but I rejoice in the precious tender mercies of The Lord!!
There are other passages that come to mind, such as when Lot was caused to become drunk by his daughters, who had molested him. Then there was the situation with Samson, who had gotten drunk, and as a consequence, had his hair cut off and his eyes plucked out. These are two that are mentioned in the "Faith Chapter" of Hebrews 11. Oh, and then there was King David who had committed adultery with another man's wife, and even sent the man away to be killed on the battle front, and yet, King David is said, by God, to be a man after his own heart. We can go on and on, but the point is Jesus Christ came to save SINNERS and redeem them by His POWER, by His Blood, by fulfilling the law in just one word: "love". We have yet to get into those passages. It all comes down to Jesus saving sinners, and their being saved solely by grace through faith in him!
1Cor 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
P.S. If you read the preceding chapters of Romans 6, along with the subsequent chapters, you would discover that the full context is also on this very issue. Try starting with reading the rest of chapter 6, then go back to read chapter 5, then read chapter 7 to get the point.
Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Rom 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Jesus said; "If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed." - John 8:36
Single lines are sufficient to present the gist of a post. And your response shows that you still do not understand this subject, even though you quote a passage which confirms what I said. So let me show you from that passage that future glorification is guaranteed because salvation is also an accomplished fact today:
into this grace wherein we stand = ACCOMPLISHED FACT
and rejoice in hope of the glory of God = FUTURE GLORIFICATION GUARANTEED
by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us = ACCOMPLISHED FACT
being now justified by his blood = ACCOMPLISHED FACT
we shall be saved from wrath through him = FUTURE GLORIFICATION GUARANTEED