If it is true (I'm not saying either way), why would it only be true for Calvinists and not all born again Christians?
The BASIC Difference between Arminians and Calvinists
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That's what I said in my first sentence, then went on to say that Scripture is to test our interpretation of Scripture.
There is a truism that states Scripture interprets Scripture.
E
EleventhHour
Guest
Agree, a person would know they have been born again.
The problem is regeneration cannot precede belief according to scripture... so I am thinking while they think they were regenerated before they believed, they may just think it was that way subjectively ..........but objectively from God's point of view it was not.
If this makes any sense?
I'm not really sure about all this.
1. Does a person know when they have been born again? (Jn 3:8)
2. Do you have Scripture showing regeneration cannot precede faith? Perhaps simultaneously?
I'm not trying to give you a hard time but anecdotally my regeneration happened about 15 months before I finally came around to saying 'yes' to Jesus. It was a long cleaning process to bring me to that point.
Your mistake, is in thinking the Reformed person must persevere in their own strength. If that was true, it would be a works gospel, I agree!
But we cannot persevere in our own strength. The Holy Spirit is the one who called and elected us, and he will help us persevere. And if we don't persevere, we never really were the elect.
"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." 1 John 2:19
"But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. 21 I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth." 1 John 2:20-21
"As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is what he promised us—eternal life." 1 John 2:24-25
John is very firm, that God saved us! We are anointed by the Holy One, and we remain in the Son and the Father. They are the ones who saved us when we were dead in our sins, and they will help us persist to the end. Not works at all!
I know I would have walked away from God many times, especially when I was sick, and felt alone and abandoned. But God never left me, and he used my suffering to help me grow. Paul says it all;
"Not only so, but we also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us." Romans 5:3-5
It is always the Holy Spirit leading and guiding, helping us persevere, grow in character, through God's love through the Holy Spirit!
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. (1 John 5:13)
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the Word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the Word which by the Gospel is preached unto you. (1 Peter 1:23-25)
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. (Rom 10:17)
It is TOTALLY ABSURD to claim that anyone receives the Holy Spirit without FIRST having repented and believed on Christ. Which means that TULIP is absurd.
What was the first cause? What caused us to Believe in Christ unto Salvation?
Not just believe in His Existence, like the demons do, but believe and start asking for the things of Salvation?
What caused that?
The question was 'Does a person know when they have been born again?'' I don't see a 'when' in that passage.
Close. It shows regeneration is due to God's Word but faith is not necessarily or instantly formed at that moment.
A baby is conceived (regenerated) at conception (of sperm and egg) but birthed (faith) about 9 months later.
I hate to interject, but how about...
Matthew 16:17 (KJV) And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
It is implied as being at the very moment when they are born again. That should be obvious.
Faith comes first, then regeneration, as Peter clearly states and Paul confirms.
PETER: GOSPEL (WORD OF GOD)-------> NEW BIRTH
PAUL: GOSPEL (WORD OF GOD)------->SAVING FAITH------>NEW BIRTH
It was (and is) the Gospel, which is THE POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION (Rom 1:16)
Why is the preaching of the Gospel critical according to Christ? Why is it a commandment of Christ -- first to the apostles, and then to the Church? Because the Gospel generates saving faith (Rom 10:17), and saving faith leads to conversion, which then leads to the New Birth (and everything else connected with salvation, including the good works produced by the Holy Spirit).
TITUS 3: JUSTIFICATION, SALVATION, REGENERATION, GOOD WORKS, ETERNAL LIFE
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
In these few verses Paul sums up a whole gamut of Gospel truth.
1. Salvation is purely by God's grace (which includes His mercy and love).
2. "He saved us" and "being justified" are one and the same, since we are also justified by grace through faith.
3. But justification is only the start, since God gives the one who obeys the Gospel the gift of the Holy Spirit "which He shed on us abundantly" (meaning He pours out His Holy Spirit at the baptism with the Spirit).
4. Then regeneration is the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit, whereby a vile sinner is born again (born of the Spirit, born of God, born from above). But the New Birth cannot precede the gift of the Spirit, since without the gift of the Spirit there cannot be a New Birth, and without saving faith there cannot be the gift of the Spirit.
5. Because the Holy Spirit (1) baptizes the believer into the Body of Christ, (2) seals the believer until the day of glorification, and (3) indwells the believers so that he is not only sanctified positionally, but has the power to be sanctified practically, the eternal security of the believer is guaranteed by God and Christ.
6. The gift of eternal life is synonymous with the gift of the Holy Spirit, the gift of Christ Himself (who is Eternal Life), and the gift of God Himself. If all this is mind-boggling that is not surprising, since everything is supernatural by the power and grace of God.
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the Word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the Word which by the Gospel is preached unto you. (1 Peter 1:23-25)
Faith is not mentioned in the passage you used. You have to interject it to fit your system.
Hearing the word of God. Romans 10. Hearing the testimony of a born again Christian. Seeing the changed life of a born again Christian.
How about you? Jesus spoke of two types in John 3. Verses 18-21.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
John 3:18-21
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
So, you preach the gospel and give your testimony and these people who love darkness rather than light are instantly transformed into believers?
They have to change, because you just preached the gospel to them. Or do they make that choice, at that moment to believe or not believe?
E
EleventhHour
Guest
When people accept the notion of "total inability" .... the inability to respond and receive, seeing what scripture plainly teaches is also lost.
Arminianism is a branch of Calvinistic thinking, and it is wrong for all the same reasons that Calvinism is wrong.
Arminianism departs from Calvinism in a couple crucial points.
I tried to read Arminius writings but I just couldn't get into it. I have a hard time reading stuff that I know is incorrect.