Predestination.

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T

throughfaith

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#1
Aug 4, 2020
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#1
Is Predestination existing saints to adoption/glorification, or sinners to conversion ?
I do take a position on this, but I'm sure of a good discussion which will hopefully include ' Eternal security ' assurance for the believer order of salvation and the components of salvation. ( ie : Apoption , calling , election , justification and the new birth )
 
Corban

Corban

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#2
Jun 11, 2020
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#2
throughfaith said:
Is Predestination existing saints to adoption/glorification, or sinners to conversion ?
I do take a position on this, but I'm sure of a good discussion which will hopefully include ' Eternal security ' assurance for the believer order of salvation and the components of salvation. ( ie : Apoption , calling , election , justification and the new birth )
Click to expand...
Just give the verses that show predestination and we'll respond. Here is what I found and none of them say we are predestinated for salvation.

Romans 8:29, "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

Romans 8:30, "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Ephesians 1:5, "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"

Ephesians 1:11, "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will"

In Romans 8 the predestination is not to be saved, but to be conformed to the image of Christ. And in Ephesians the predestination is to be HEIRS by legally adopting us. Adoption is a legal status that makes you eligible for an inheritance. But I may have missed something.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#3
#3
Corban said:
Just give the verses that show predestination and we'll respond. Here is what I found and none of them say we are predestinated for salvation.

Romans 8:29, "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

Romans 8:30, "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Ephesians 1:5, "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"

Ephesians 1:11, "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will"

In Romans 8 the predestination is not to be saved, but to be conformed to the image of Christ. And in Ephesians the predestination is to be HEIRS by legally adopting us. Adoption is a legal status that makes you eligible for an inheritance. But I may have missed something.
Click to expand...
All of the things we are predestined to are based on the fact we are saved.

non of them are possible without salvation

predestination is based on the gospel, whoever calls on the name of the lord will be saved,

whether God knew who would do it (forknowledge) or god just predestined based on who would recieve the gospel But did not know them individually before time began, it still deals with the fact everyone who will enter Heaven was predestined before time began
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#4
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#4
Corban said:
Just give the verses that show predestination and we'll respond. Here is what I found and none of them say we are predestinated for salvation.

Romans 8:29, "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

Romans 8:30, "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Ephesians 1:5, "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"

Ephesians 1:11, "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will"

In Romans 8 the predestination is not to be saved, but to be conformed to the image of Christ. And in Ephesians the predestination is to be HEIRS by legally adopting us. Adoption is a legal status that makes you eligible for an inheritance. But I may have missed something.
Click to expand...
Agree 👍
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#5
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#5
Corban said:
Just give the verses that show predestination and we'll respond. Here is what I found and none of them say we are predestinated for salvation.

Romans 8:29, "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

Romans 8:30, "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Ephesians 1:5, "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"

Ephesians 1:11, "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will"

In Romans 8 the predestination is not to be saved, but to be conformed to the image of Christ. And in Ephesians the predestination is to be HEIRS by legally adopting us. Adoption is a legal status that makes you eligible for an inheritance. But I may have missed something.
Click to expand...
The adoption is the redemption of the body . We recieve the Spirit of Adoption till then .23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. rom 8.23
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#6
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#6
Corban said:
Just give the verses that show predestination and we'll respond. Here is what I found and none of them say we are predestinated for salvation.

Romans 8:29, "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

Romans 8:30, "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Ephesians 1:5, "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"

Ephesians 1:11, "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will"

In Romans 8 the predestination is not to be saved, but to be conformed to the image of Christ. And in Ephesians the predestination is to be HEIRS by legally adopting us. Adoption is a legal status that makes you eligible for an inheritance. But I may have missed something.
Click to expand...
Adoption is the future redemption of the body, not conversion. (Rom. 8:23, 15-17; Gal. 4:1-6)

5. Sinners become sons of God through the new birth, not through adoption. (John 1:12-13)
 
T

throughfaith

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#7
Aug 4, 2020
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#7
throughfaith said:
Adoption is the future redemption of the body, not conversion. (Rom. 8:23, 15-17; Gal. 4:1-6)

5. Sinners become sons of God through the new birth, not through adoption. (John 1:12-13)
Click to expand...
would you agree?
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#8
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#8
Corban said:
Just give the verses that show predestination and we'll respond. Here is what I found and none of them say we are predestinated for salvation.

Romans 8:29, "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

Romans 8:30, "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Ephesians 1:5, "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"

Ephesians 1:11, "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will"

In Romans 8 the predestination is not to be saved, but to be conformed to the image of Christ. And in Ephesians the predestination is to be HEIRS by legally adopting us. Adoption is a legal status that makes you eligible for an inheritance. But I may have missed something.
Click to expand...
I believe Ephesians 1.5 is predestined to the Adoption . which is explained in Rom 8.23 as the future redemption of the body ( glorification)
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#9
Jan 13, 2016
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#9
throughfaith said:
The adoption is the redemption of the body . We recieve the Spirit of Adoption till then .23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. rom 8.23
Click to expand...
Once you're in Christ, the Lord determines your future to receive the redemption of the body. You are now predestinated for the adoption. If you're not in Christ, you're future is yet to be determined.
 
T

throughfaith

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#10
Aug 4, 2020
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#10
eternally-gratefull said:
All of the things we are predestined to are based on the fact we are saved.

non of them are possible without salvation

predestination is based on the gospel, whoever calls on the name of the lord will be saved,

whether God knew who would do it (forknowledge) or god just predestined based on who would recieve the gospel But did not know them individually before time began, it still deals with the fact everyone who will enter Heaven was predestined before time began
Click to expand...
Any verses you wish to discuss to confirm what your saying ?
 
G

Guojing

Banned
#11
Jan 12, 2019
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#11
throughfaith said:
Is Predestination existing saints to adoption/glorification, or sinners to conversion ?
I do take a position on this, but I'm sure of a good discussion which will hopefully include ' Eternal security ' assurance for the believer order of salvation and the components of salvation. ( ie : Apoption , calling , election , justification and the new birth )
Click to expand...
Predestination is about time

We are born in the time dimension so it will always be hard for us to understand how God views time

It’s like asking a fish to explain what water is
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#12
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
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#12
Guojing said:
Predestination is about time

We are born in the time dimension so it will always be hard for us to understand how God views time

It’s like asking a fish to explain what water is
Click to expand...
whats your take on the meaning of predestination in the verses its mentioned ?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#13
#13
throughfaith said:
Any verses you wish to discuss to confirm what your saying ?
Click to expand...
why don’t you prove me wrong. He posted verses and I showed how those verses were written to only saved people so in essence predestination includes salvation

is not the son who gets an inheritance?

is it not the son who will conformed to the image

How can this happen apart from salvation?

it can’t
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#14
Aug 4, 2020
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#14
eternally-gratefull said:
why don’t you prove me wrong. He posted verses and I showed how those verses were written to only saved people so in essence predestination includes salvation

is not the son who gets an inheritance?

is it not the son who will conformed to the image

How can this happen apart from salvation?

it can’t
Click to expand...
I believe that Predestination is of existing saints to adoption/glorification, not sinners to conversion. (Eph. 1:5, 11; Rom. 8:23, 29-30) would you agree?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#15
#15
throughfaith said:
I believe that Predestination is of existing saints to adoption/glorification, not sinners to conversion. (Eph. 1:5, 11; Rom. 8:23, 29-30) would you agree?
Click to expand...
Nope

because you can’t have one without the other
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#17
#17
John 6: 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

this is what I believe predestination. Is based on
 
Lafftur

Lafftur

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#19
Apr 18, 2017
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#19
throughfaith said:
Is Predestination existing saints to adoption/glorification, or sinners to conversion ?
I do take a position on this, but I'm sure of a good discussion which will hopefully include ' Eternal security ' assurance for the believer order of salvation and the components of salvation. ( ie : Apoption , calling , election , justification and the new birth )
Click to expand...
Predestination is simply the “End of the Road”.....Destiny.

There are two roads - one ends in Death and one ends in Life.

God told us to choose Life - that’s His Will for us but, we have to choose because God also wants us to love Him and love must always have a choice.

I choose Life in Christ...I am now on the Road predestined for Eternal Life with God. :love:(y)
 
T

throughfaith

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#20
Aug 4, 2020
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#20
eternally-gratefull said:
John 6: 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

this is what I believe predestination. Is based on
Click to expand...
based on 'seeing' the Son , believing in him , recieve ever lasting life and being raised up on the last day ? So are we predestined to this taking place ?
 
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