Calvinist Kitchen...stirring the pot

[eternally-gratefull]

I quote Romans to you and you don't believe it.

Romans 9:21-24
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Look at that passage in context in the OT

the clay became marred in the makers hand (free will chose to rebel) that make her the right to destroy what he was making and start over again.

it is talking about the nation of Israel not people

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I wasn't even speaking of sin. I was speaking of total inability.

Keep reading John 6:44. Maybe it will sink in. Its really simple.

No one can come to Christ, I.E. Salvation, unless they are drawn by the Father.

Once they are drawn by the Father they are Saved, eternally.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.


It is not merely sin that is preventing people from responding to the gospel. It is everything in this world.

2 Corinthians 4:3-7
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.


Why is it so difficult to say that there was nothing in me that was drawn to Godliness, but rather it was Gods Leading that brought me to Salvation?

You really think you are smart enough to perfectly follow the instructions of the Gospel while simultaneously your mind is being blinded by the god of this world?

That last one was rhetorical. You aren't. No one is.

John 6, this is the will of God, that whoever sees AND BELIEVES will have eternal life.

you can not remove belief out of the equation,

belief is a choice. It is not something forced

 

[Grandpa]

It comes from God, it is why he was sent to the world, in spirit, then in body, then again in spirit (via the son and the HS.

the tax collecting falling on his knee did not earn salvation, he took what God showed him about his sin, and cried out for mercy.

Yep. And put very simply, the Calvinist view is that God gave that tax collector the view of his sin in order that he would fall on his knees and cry for mercy.

 

[Grandpa]

Look at that passage in context in the OT

the clay became marred in the makers hand (free will chose to rebel) that make her the right to destroy what he was making and start over again.

it is talking about the nation of Israel not people

Its talking about both.

 

[Bbrdrd]

All I get from your post is that you don't understand even the question you asked much less the answer given.

Were you expecting a canned Calvinist answer?

Your original question, that you thought you would "unravel" Calvinism with was "prove inability" not just depravity.

I did it with ONE verse. Apparently that was too easy and definitive so now you are complaining.


How does No man CAN come to me mean something other than No man CAN come to me by putting it into "context"? I think what you mean is that it is much easier for you to twist scripture if I add more scripture to my explanation.

No need to. Either you will understand that you are wrong or you will not. It appears you just don't want to admit you are wrong because maybe you have some argument against some classic Calvinist argument that makes sense to you.

The context of John 6:44 shows that Jesus is not speaking of some kind of inherent inability. I asked you to prove the Calvinist doctrine of inability which is a specific doctrine, I expected you to actually defend the doctrine you claim to support.

Instead you keep quoting a single verse out of context to read it in a very specific way that the context does not support. It's not a matter of twisting Scripture, but understanding the meaning of a verse by reading the surrounding verses. Which is why I posted:
It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’[a] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

When we consider the context we see that Jesus is no referring to an inherent inability but the manner in which He is revealed, which is a direct revelation by the Father. The verse is an accusation against the pharisees who claimed to be following God but were completely oblivious to what the Father reveals.

To pull the verse out in isolation and ignore the contextual meaning of it is twisting Scripture. How you can characterize understanding the verse based on the surrounding verses as "twisting" is absolutely laughable.

So no, you did not demonstrate an inability with your proof text. Merely your own willingness to seek out verses to say what you want rather than to take the time to understand what a verse means based on a contextual reading.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I'm not redefining anything. I was just showing scripture that shows we don't just come to Christ by our own will and decisions. Like you and others are claiming.

You are trying to pull at a thread to try and unravel the Word of Christ. I'm showing you where that thread stops. John 6:44.

You can argue with the theology that it is sin that has bound the will and that causes inability. That IS the reason, but you can still show unsaved people doing "good" things and bring about some doubt.

But you can't bring doubt upon Gods Word.

You have the context of Romans 9-11 in error, that why we can not believe your interpretation Bro. It does not fit.. because god is not talking about induvidual people. He is talking about a nation of people

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You mean that God is Sovereign and that God chooses His People?

That is the evil error you are fighting against?

The whole bible is filled with this FACT.

he does chose,

he does not force

now matter how you try to say it, fatalism says a believer has no choice and a non believer has no choice, thus in reality it is forced on them.

that's our issue bro..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

He said hell wasn't made for mankind and Christ draws ALL men to Himself.

What conclusion would you come to from those two statements?

not all who are drawn are saved, we see this in John 6

i have witnessed god draw many people to himself yet in the end, those people continued to say they would do it later, and died never having recieved,

many are called few are chosen

 

[Grandpa]

John 6, this is the will of God, that whoever sees AND BELIEVES will have eternal life.

you can not remove belief out of the equation,

belief is a choice. It is not something forced

Belief is NOT a choice. Belief is something that you are given.

Look at the fruit of the Spirit. Look at Ephesians 2:8-10.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yep. And put very simply, the Calvinist view is that God gave that tax collector the view of his sin in order that he would fall on his knees and cry for mercy.

that’s great

but the true view is God. Exposes everyone’s sin, yet not everyone comes to saving faith

romans 1 proves this. The people have no excuse because they know

also John 3. Where it said people know. yet chose their sin,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Its talking about both.

No

it is talkin about the nation of Israel. God said they were the clay. That is the context of Romans 9 - 11, did God make a mistake choosing isreal (see vs 1-6 Of chapter 9 for contex)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Belief is NOT a choice. Belief is something that you are given.

Look at the fruit of the Spirit. Look at Ephesians 2:8-10.

Then no one will be saved

because for god to say whoever believes I not condemned,but whoever does not believe is condemned already

for jesus to say we must chose to eat the food which endures to eternal life, which is eating the bread of heave, which is eating his flesh and blood, which he demands that we chose to do. and he puts that in equality with believing in him (john6)

I can not agree there bro..belief is a choice.
the choice is who do you trust,

god. or self..

if you continue to trust self.then you will never trust god.

 

[fredoheaven]

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Well that was easy. Really John 6:44 all by itself tells you of your inability. John 15:5 just nails it home.


Its only a response and a recognition because God has first Drawn the individual to Him. Otherwise, the magic words would work on everyone. The same words, the same preaching that would bring one Salvation would bring all.

Because you would have to ask yourself, why was I smart enough to respond to the gospel but those other 50 were not? I must be really smart, wise, great, full of discernment, etc... But Gods Word says the opposite. Not many mighty, not many wise... No flesh shall glory in His Presence.

John 6:44 says "no man can come" yet it was concluded at John 6:45 that " every man that had heard and taught cometh" but those who comes are subject for believing Christ. So, not all who comes are saved just like the murmuring Jews as the context is saying. John 6:44 does not support the inability of man. On the other hand, John 15:5 has nothing to do man's inability regards to salvation for even the verse had to say of abiding to Christ to produce fruit, hence, it is not by all yourself but we need to abide in Christ. To abide does not show inability rather shows stability or continuity.

 

[Grandpa]

No

it is talkin about the nation of Israel. God said they were the clay. That is the context of Romans 9 - 11, did God make a mistake choosing isreal (see vs 1-6 Of chapter 9 for contex)

You aren't reading it properly.

You don't want to or you can't. Not sure what is going on here.

Romans 9:15-16
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.


It would be not of THEM that willeth or THEM that runneth were an entire NATION being talked about here.

Romans 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?


Nay but "O Nation...."

This whole part is talking about individuals. IT IS ALSO talking about the nation of Israel. But that doesn't subtract from the fact that it is about INDIVIDUALS too.

 

[Grandpa]

John 6:44 says "no man can come" yet it was concluded at John 6:45 that " every man that had heard and taught cometh" but those who comes are subject for believing Christ. So, not all who comes are saved just like the murmuring Jews as the context is saying. John 6:44 does not support the inability of man. On the other hand, John 15:5 has nothing to do man's inability regards to salvation for even the verse had to say of abiding to Christ to produce fruit, hence, it is not by all yourself but we need to abide in Christ. To abide does not show inability rather shows stability or continuity.

What does "You can do nothing without Me" suggest?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

John 6
Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”

35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.

40: And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

47: Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes [j]in Me has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead.50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”

54: Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is [k]food indeed, and My blood is [l]drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”

The bolder words are actions words. People must chose to do them if they want life. It is not just handed to them. They must do them, and no one who do them unless they believe, as peter said, where are we to go, YOU have the words of eternal life and we have come to believe... and remember, they still did not have The Who,e
picture of what it mean yet.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Belief is NOT a choice. Belief is something that you are given.

Look at the fruit of the Spirit. Look at Ephesians 2:8-10.

Fruit of the spirit is what ONLY children sealed by the spirit can do

eph 2 sais we are saved by grace THROUGH faith, and out of our new creation then comes works.

salvation must come first, and salvation is only through faith,

 

[EleventhHour]

Its only ridiculous to your philosophy of how you think you choose God and make Him save you.

These verses go directly against that thought.

So when you start trying to have a theology you have to keep these verses in mind. Otherwise you just go off the rails.

"make Him save you"

WOW!

Who is this god you preach.... some unresponsive god of Greek philosophy?

God DESIRES to save .. this is why He sent His Son.

 

[Grandpa]

god. or self..

if you continue to trust self.then you will never trust god.

That's the whole point here.

No one just decides to start not trusting in themselves without first being regenerated.

Salvation = Gift of God

Belief = Salvation

Therefore, Belief = Gift of God


Everything necessary for Salvation is the Gift of God. I know this to be true. I'm not just guessing.

 

[fredoheaven]

What does "You can do nothing without Me" suggest?

It suggest that we need to abide in Christ. That's continuity not inability and what does abiding suggest?