God, what's Water Baptism for?

[Butterflyyy]

So, you’re saying....

We need the Blood and Body of Jesus and Water baptism and Holy Spirit baptism are all part of salvation because to enter the Kingdom of God Jesus told Nicodemus:

Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:4-6 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 3:4-6&version=KJV

Very interesting.....I think you might be correct!

I think ‘ born of water ‘ in this verse is referring to when a baby is born of water from the womb; all babies are literally in a sac of water at the time of birth.
Jesus is saying we must be born of our Mothers (water) and also of the Spirit (born again).

 

[Locoponydirtman]

where is the contradiction?

You haven't read Romans chapter 6 Galatians or 1 Peter?
Where it says baptism does stuff?

 

[EleventhHour]

That is incorrect. Remission of sins is the PERMANENT forgiveness of sins -- the blotting out of sins.

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord (Acts 3:19)

This corresponds to the words of Christ in Luke 24:47: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Yes I agree.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

Well, perhaps we should ask Him........

Me: Lord, @Locoponydirtman wants to know why You contradicted what You have written in scripture. Did You contradict Yourself?

God: No.

Well, Locoponydirtman......there you go.

You ain't God.

I don't have to ask the holy spirit because he had it written down in plain language to read in a book that was given to us. If I want to know about something that he is already written down for us all I have to do is read it.

 

[preacher4truth]

Do NOT use human reasoning to decide the validity of Water Baptism........human reasoning CANNOT understand the Mind, Heart, Plan and Purposes of God.....

So, how are we to understand? We have to have ears to hear what the Holy Spirit is saying.

In humility, just simply ask God questions and the Holy Spirit will give us understanding.....

Here's how my conversation with God went.......

Me: So, Lord, please may the Holy Spirit help us to understand what Water Baptism is for........

God: What was circumcision for?

Me: A sign of covenant.

God: Could circumcision save anyone?

Me: No.

God: The same is true with Water Baptism - it's a sign of covenant but, it cannot save you.

Me: Lord, please tell me how is Water Baptism a sign of covenant?

God: Water Baptism is to be done in the presence of witnesses that you and I are entering into covenant. I promise to save you with My Son - Jesus Christ with His Blood and Body and I also promise to give you the Holy Spirit that raised Him from the dead; in return you promise to submit to My Will - the Father's Will and believe on the ONLY Savior I have given you, My Son - My Lamb and receive the gift of My Holy Spirit.

In Water Baptism, the person believes and confesses My Son - Jesus Christ as Lord, Savior and King. They are placed in My Hands ("into Your Hands, Father I commit my Spirit..."). A sign of total submission to God The Father. In My Hands the person is totally submerged under the water as a sign of being buried with My Son and when the person comes up out of the water, they are raised to new life by the power of God The Holy Spirit - the same Spirit that raised My Son from the dead.

Water Baptism is the sign of the New Covenant God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Spirit has made with Man. Man is to be ONE with God in the Kingdom of Heaven that is coming.

Me: Thank You, for giving us understanding. Truly, we know NOTHING unless You, by Your Holy Spirit give us understanding. Thank You, Father.

Whoever has an ear to hear, let him hear what the Spirit is saying......amen.

So, God said this to you word for word?

Um. No. He didn't. We have the Bible to consult, and that is how He speaks to us and guides us, not in one on one conversations, audible, or otherwise.

 

[Corban]

Obviously you put much time and effort into this theology. I cannot and would not consider all that you said is valid.
The old testament is the new hidden and the new is the old revealed at least that is my belief.
Jesus also said that all the scriptures point to him.
To say that John was just a ordinary man would invalidate some scriptures about him.
One being that God prophesied of John in the book of Malachi.
Two that John acknowledged the Christ before he was born.
Not to mention he was a blood relative to Jesus.

We are told time and time again that Israel killed the sent prophets now a bad king that represents Rome kills a prophet of the Lord.
John's father was a servant in the temple so we know that John knew his scriptures.
So my question is what did John prophesied. What did John bring to the table sorta speak?

John, as I said in my post (quoting scripture) was the greatest man born to woman. He was endued with the Holy Spirit from his mother's womb. He was a Levite and a Nazerite. He came in the Spirit of Elijah. You just about can't get better than that in earthly heritage. A chosen man from the womb, of Levi the chosen Tribe to serve the very God of the universe, of Israel, the chosen Nation, to whom pertain the Oracles of God and the Covenants. I would not like to, in any way, reduce John's position among men "born to women". Rather, taking this high standing of John, I would like to show the infinitely greater heritage IN Christ by the New BIRTH.

We generally define prophets because they predicted the future. But 1st Corinthians 14:3 actually gives the Biblical definition. It is a man or woman who speaks God's instant word to edify, admonish and/or to comfort people. The Old Testament Prophets did just this. They admonished Israel of their naughtiness and the coming judgment of God. Then they propose a change of heart to avoid the anger of Jehovah. But knowing that judgement will come, they comfort a chastened people with predictions of restoration. John admonished the people of their sin and sins, he tried to edify them with a change of heart, and he comforted them with the introduction of the Lamb.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

So, God said this to you word for word?

Um. No. He didn't. We have the Bible to consult, and that is how He speaks to us and guides us, not in one on one conversations, audible, or otherwise.

This is a common problem with charismata. One of the many reasons that I left that movement.

 

[preacher4truth]

This is a common problem with charismata. One of the many reasons that I left that movement.

I'm glad God called you out of that heretical cult.

 

[Guojing]

We need to understand that there was a present application as well as a future application to Israel regarding the remission of sins. I already told you to check Ephesians 2 for the present application. And Romans 11 is about the future application. They are both true in their own places.

PRESENT APPLICATION: REMISSION OF SINS FOR THE CHURCH
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved... Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God...

FUTURE APPLICATION: REMISSION OF SINS FOR ISRAEL
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob [ISRAEL]: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

So Acts 3 and Romans 11 is clear that, for Israel as a nation, their sins are taken away in the future. That you agree correct?

But for the Body of Christ, Paul is our apostle and under the gospel message he received from the ascended Christ to us (Galatians 1), we have forgiveness of sins now.

 

[Guojing]

In the normal usage of words, the "Kingdom OF Heaven" means a Kingdom OUT OF Heaven. The connotation is that the King and Laws already established in Heaven will be transported to somewhere else and enforced. The Kingdom of God is even more simple. It is the area, domain or sphere were God's Kingship is recognized and His Laws are enforced. If Christ does not return to earth, the King will be missing. Who will enforce His Laws. Thus, without Christ there is no Kingdom. But Matthew starts with Jesus Christ, seed of Abraham and seed of David. Immediately we see His status ON EARTH, for that is the domain of Abraham and David. Abraham is promised the Land of Canaan as an "everlasting possession", and he is promised the "Whole World" in Romans 4:13. Our Lord Jesus, being seed of Abraham, must INHERIT Canaan, and He must INHERIT the whole world. And, as seed of David, He is promised to sit on David's Throne forever. He is thus BOTH, (i) King of Israel, and (ii) King of kings.

The Kingdom of Heaven is pointedly NOT for Israel because they are "earthy", are as the "sand of the sea shore", has a Law written forst in stone and later in their hearts, and will display a "terrestrial glory" in resurrection. Much more, the Church is "of a heavenly calling" (Heb.3:1), is born from ABOVE (Jn.3:3-6 - lit.Gk.), Look to heaven for the coming of their Lord, focus on heavenly things, have their treasure in heaven, have a King who came down from heaven and have "celestial glory" in resurrection.

1. The Kingdom of David is for Israel and is in Canaan ON EARTH - Jesus is that King in Jerusalem (Zech.14:16)
2. The Kingdom of Heaven - the rules enforced in heaven, is brought TO EARTH by our Lord Jesus and the Church. They rule the cities of the Gentiles (Lk.19:17-19)
3. The Kingdom of God is established by Jesus thrashing the Gentiles at Armageddon in a military battle (Dan.2:34-35, 44-46). Since the Gentiles are on earth, Christ will be King of the EARTH

The key is to understand the term "kingdom of heaven" is found in 2 places.

The Lord's prayer

Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven

The 12 are to pray that God's will in heaven, to be done on Earth as well.

Matthew 10
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

The Kingdom of heaven is at hand, this gospel of the kingdom is only for Israel. A taste of that kingdom is given to Israel because all the 12 were given signs and wonders to heal anyone and to raise the dead.

That is to show Israel that, when Jesus is reigning on Earth, that is what they can expect, no sickness, no death, no disease.

But you are correct, Israel as a nation rejected Jesus, and put him on the cross. Thus this Kingdom of Heaven is no longer "at hand".

Instead its the Kingdom of God that is promised to the Body of Christ, which, as you have stated, is heavenly. Your pt 2 and 3 will only come in the future, after the 2nd coming of Jesus.

 

[Guojing]

So, God said this to you word for word?

Um. No. He didn't. We have the Bible to consult, and that is how He speaks to us and guides us, not in one on one conversations, audible, or otherwise.

You will encounter such Christians from time to time. Let them be since they are already fully convinced in their own minds.

 

[CS1]

Why did he contradict what he had written in scripture?

Water Baptism is the sign of the New Covenant God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Spirit has made with Man. Man is to be ONE with God in the Kingdom of Heaven that is coming.

This application is very much biblical. Baptism represents the death burial and resurrection of Jesus as Paul said in Romans 6:4

"Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so, we also should walk in newness of life."

"For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:"


Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

You haven't read Romans chapter 6 Galatians or 1 Peter?
Where it says baptism does stuff?

I have not read Roman 6 ? or Galations or 1Peter where it says Baptism dies stuff ? OOOOOOoooook Can you tell us what that " Stuff" is ? Because I quoted Roman 6 in context to the application .

 

[garee]

although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples.

New Living Translation
(though Jesus himself didn’t baptize them—his disciples did).

English Standard Version
(although Jesus himself did not baptize, but only his disciples),

Berean Study Bible
(although it was not Jesus who baptized, but His disciples),

Berean Literal Bible
(although indeed Jesus Himself was not baptizing, but His disciples),

New American Standard Bible
(although Jesus Himself was not baptizing, but His disciples were),

New King James Version
(though Jesus Himself did not baptize, but His disciples),

King James Bible
(Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

Christian Standard Bible
(though Jesus himself was not baptizing, but his disciples were),

Contemporary English Version
But Jesus' disciples were really the ones doing the baptizing, and not Jesus himself.

That came after the discussion regarding the new priesthood after the order of Melchedik a eternal priest Jesus as the Son of God our high priest, without beginning of spirit life or end.

it was not a contradiction of what he had written in scripture in the previous verse .Chapter 3 :25-26. You could say he got the ball rolling in respect to a kingdom of priest made up of all the nations . Possibly re-baptizing Johns disciples .Again to show the new order had begun no longer after a Levi to represent one nation . After that it was not part of the His ministry to use water. Paul the same way .He preached the gospel but did not participate in the ceremony using water . Philip did perform the ceremony with the gentile Enoch who desired to become a member of the new order of priesthood of believers .

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

No outward sign as a self edifying gift called strange fire .

 

[Lafftur]

I think ‘ born of water ‘ in this verse is referring to when a baby is born of water from the womb; all babies are literally in a sac of water at the time of birth.
Jesus is saying we must be born of our Mothers (water) and also of the Spirit (born again).

Interesting understanding, I can see why you would think that.

I see water being associated with BOTH Births.

First Birth - Water and Flesh
(Amniotic Fluid and Sinful Nature)

Second Birth - Water and Spirit
(Water Baptism and Holy Spirit Baptism - new Spiritual Nature in Christ)

Jesus called the first birth “born of the flesh” and the second birth “born of the Spirit.”

Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:4-6 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 3:4-6&version=KJV

There are things we don’t have to agree on but, it is fun to share our understandings with each other.

Also, truth has layers meaning we learn line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little....maturing and growing in the knowledge of God and love of God.

 

[pottersclay]

What if I were to tell you that baptism was a ritual and not a covenant?

 

[Locoponydirtman]

Water Baptism is the sign of the New Covenant God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Spirit has made with Man. Man is to be ONE with God in the Kingdom of Heaven that is coming.

This application is very much biblical. Baptism represents the death burial and resurrection of Jesus as Paul said in Romans 6:4

"Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so, we also should walk in newness of life."

"For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:"


Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:


I have not read Roman 6 ? or Galations or 1Peter where it says Baptism dies stuff ? OOOOOOoooook Can you tell us what that " Stuff" is ? Because I quoted Roman 6 in context to the application .

Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
Romans 6:4‭-‬5 NASB
https://bible.com/bible/100/rom.6.4-5.NASB

We have been buried with him.
We are United with him.

Will we be resurrected or is it only symbolic. I know you use in the likeness here to mean symbolic, but if you say we are symbolically joined to his death then we can't change the meaning when he says likeness again in raised up. Either we will be only symbolically raised up or we will be actually raised up. If we are to be actually raised up then we are actually buried.

This would also make Peter a false teacher when he says "baptism now saves you". When he contrasted baptism with the flood. Because he says it straight forward, that corresponding to the flood that God brought only 8 people through, that baptism now saves you. So if God actually saved those 8 through the flood then corresponding to that baptism must also actually save you.

 

[Lafftur]

You ain't God.

I don't have to ask the holy spirit because he had it written down in plain language to read in a book that was given to us. If I want to know about something that he is already written down for us all I have to do is read it.

I NEVER said I was God.

You can read the Holy Bible all your life but, you will NOT understand unless you humble yourself and ask the Holy Spirit to give you understanding.

Human reasoning will come up with all kinds of interpretations but, NEVER the Truth.

 

[Lafftur]

What if I were to tell you that baptism was a ritual and not a covenant?

I NEVER said Water Baptism was a covenant. I said Water Baptism is a SIGN of the New Covenant IN CHRIST.

Just as Circumcision was a SIGN of the covenant between God and Abraham. Circumcision was also a ceremony.

 

[Guojing]

This would also make Peter a false teacher when he says "baptism now saves you". When he contrasted baptism with the flood. Because he says it straight forward, that corresponding to the flood that God brought only 8 people through, that baptism now saves you. So if God actually saved those 8 through the flood then corresponding to that baptism must also actually save you.

Once you are able to recognize that Peter was writing to Israel, everything becomes clear. 1 Peter 1:1

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

Only Israelite Jews could be scattered abroad, they were forced to leave Jerusalem at Acts 8. Gentiles cannot be scattered since that term gentiles does not have a specific nation.

As he was told by Christ himself in Mark 16:16, the gospel of the Kingdom requires water baptism for salvation. So Peter is correct in saying water baptism saves.

 

[Lafftur]

So, God said this to you word for word?

Um. No. He didn't. We have the Bible to consult, and that is how He speaks to us and guides us, not in one on one conversations, audible, or otherwise.

So, all you do is READ ABOUT HIM but, NEVER talk to Him and hear Him speak to your spirit? That is very sad. Our relationship with God is to be very intimate - we're to "know Him" not just "know about Him."