God specifically created some people for damnation? That’s harmonious with Scripture? Please provide the harmoniously supportive Scripture with regards to that.
Calvinist Kitchen...stirring the pot
- Thread starter GraceAndTruth
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Ok. So lets get this straight.
Everyone is without excuse, because the evidence of God is everywhere.
Regeneration does NOT precede faith. People generate their own faith in order to believe in God and cause Him to Save them.
And since the evidence of God is everywhere this should be an easy thing to do.
And, add on top of that, God WANTS to save everyone and is actively trying as hard as He Can to save everyone. Unfortunately, their are bad Calvinists and Reformers stopping God and the people trying to help God by telling everyone that it is God who Saves not peoples Wills and good decisions.
These bad people cause everyone else to lose hope in the OBVIOUSNESS of God and faith that they generated inside their selves.
These Calvinists and Reformers are really powerful people. I wonder how come they didn't prevent me from coming to Christ and being saved but they prevent everyone else?
Thats what I just said. Calvin doesn't teach anyone how to be a Christian.
But if a Saved person studies Calvinism they will find out that it is scriptural. You just have to change your immature carnal thoughts into spiritual mature Christian thoughts.
That's not exactly what I said. That's what you said. But here's your scripture;
Romans 9:22-24
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
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EleventhHour
Guest
I will leave the misrepresentation aside and please use scripture that shows regeneration does precede faith.
You do know that in order for Augustine to defeat Pelagius he had to demonstrate belief/choice was not possible and Calvinism has very erroneously carried this false teaching forward.
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EleventhHour
Guest
It is always this same verse... that is not a good sign for you guys btw....
In context this has to do with God's dealing of Israel....
God’s right to reject physical Israel for salvation after God used them to produce the Messiah.
Israel's fall through unbelief, extended to the Gentiles salvation by faith, and salvation of a Jewish remnant through grace.
And is portion of scripture related to personal salvation....NO
I was not a Calvinist when I was saved.I am pretty sure pride and emotionalism have no bearing.
You think all of us who have studied scripture and do not see the tenets of Calvinism are filled with pride and emotionalism?
I will say that a Calvinist will always has their conversion experience fit the Calvinistic model.
It typically goes like this (I have read quite a few).... "all of sudden I was regenerated"
Some even state they did not hear the Gospel first.
I fully believed in my free will and my ability to make God Move. Just like you and everyone else who believes in free will.
And then my eyes were opened to what the enemy of our souls does to the whole world and how he keeps everyone in bondage.
Everything that you thought, everything that is in the world, is designed to keep you in bondage. Only the Lord Jesus can take down the strongholds that are in the way of Knowing Him and being Saved.
How do you tell lost people all of this when "Christians" don't even believe it? You basically keep the focus on the Lord Jesus Christ and don't worry about the nuts and bolts of how you get there.
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EleventhHour
Guest
Well we can all give personal testimony, however at the end of the day all the matters is following the truth of scripture.
Of course Calvinism appeals to those who want an air tight system with everything answered and accounted for... it is an appeal to the intellect, that does make it of God.
It is unbiblical made to look biblical. It has several hooks that have obviously worked on you.
Can we agree that the fruit of the Spirit cannot be produced by the un-regenerate? Or maybe word it as, the un-regenerate cannot produce the qualities of the fruit of the Spirit that are pleasing to God and that fulfill the Law?
Galatians 5:22-23
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
This is what it means to be the Workmanship of God. Which is Salvation.
If these qualities can be generated by un-regenerated people then what do they need Salvation for? They can just try really hard at generating all these fruit.
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EleventhHour
Guest
No one is going to read scripture apart from knowing the tenets of Calvinism and come up with Calvinism ... except for John Calvin who
was influenced by Augustine who mangled scripture to refute Pelagius.
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EleventhHour
Guest
It is absolutely biblical.
But you are correct as well. It is an appeal to the intellect. It is trying to understand the Work of God. And then putting it in a way that people can understand. Ensuring that everything that is said has a biblical foundation.
It doesn't answer all questions. There are still plenty of things that don't make perfect sense.
But erring on the side of the Sovereignty of God rather on the ability and wisdom of people seems like a pretty easy free-will decision to me.
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EleventhHour
Guest
The Sovereignty of God of Calvinism is not the sovereignty of God of the bible.
Do you believe God it the author of evil?
A saved person, knowing that it was the Power of God and not their own ability or wisdom that caused themselves to be saved, would probably come to all the same conclusions that Calvin did.
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EleventhHour
Guest
And non-Calvinists do not believe we cause ourselves to be saved that is a false accusation.
I already posted the 10th chapter of Romans (which was evidently ignored). Which means that Calvinists do not believe in either (1) the power of the Gospel or (2) the power of the Holy Spirit in using the Gospel to bring sinners to salvation BEFORE they can be born again.
The sovereignty of God is the sovereignty of God.
God is not the author of evil. But evil exists because God allows it.
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EleventhHour
Guest
People should note that whenever the Gospel is presented in Scripture, it is always the GRACE OF GOD that is emphasized, never His sovereignty. Salvation is by GRACE through faith, not salvation is by SOVEREIGNTY through faith.
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EleventhHour
Guest
Then you view of sovereignty is not quite so "Calvinistic" for lack of a better word.
Yet God's grace is irresistible?
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