Calvinist Kitchen...stirring the pot

[EleventhHour]

Yes. All drawn are saved, and all drawn will be raised, John 6:44.

Isolating verses and auto repeat.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

indeed. we run the risk of reading any Scripture 'our Way' unless we ask God the True Meaning/s.

but why would the Spirit need a Concordance??

The english language has a lot of the same words, that have many different meanings. It's no wonder that some people have a hard time understanding the meaning of a verse of scripture if they do not consult the Greek concordance. The Holy Spirit does not need a concordance, the student does.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

So if I understand you correctly, you're saying we don't contribute anything towards the work of salvation. That sounds Biblically correct and I've never found anything in the scriptures that would disagree with this.
My understanding is that God grants us everything we need to receive salvation, including obedience to the gospel. So we obey and do good works as a result of being regenerated and saved form our sin and not to attain salvation.

The two main ways Christians interpret the doctrine of salvation, is works based and grace based. The works based view teaches that we earn salvation by obedience and good works and the grace based view teaches that our obedience and works have nothing to do with salvation.

We find many with extreme views on both sides, and that doesn't help anyone understand what the Bible is actually teaching us. I'm sure your not one of those who thinks he can go through life with a relaxed attitude towards sin, because you know that nothing can cause you to lose your salvation. Many of us who believe in election are often accused of living as if we have a licence to sin.

Many who believe in election accuse those who believe in the joint effort type of salvation, of heresy. I would never conclude that ones view of this doctrine would make them a heretic or as unsaved. Only God knows who's names are written in His book of life, so we should treat everyone as potentially saved.

I haven't spoken to my pastor in a few months since this epidemic, but I look forward to asking him if a persons view of this particular Bible doctrine should cause us to break fellowship with those from the other camp.

I may be misunderstanding you on your second sentence; "God grants us everything we need to receive salvation, including the gospel'. Do you think that we can read and understand the gospel before we are quickened to a new life?

 

[oldethennew]

we believe that we are 'definitely-drawn' to The Son by The Father - it is a 'TEAM EFFORT' =
hub didn't even 'believe in Jesus', but, after he was drawn, He for sure had NO DOUBT'...

why do so many people feel so drawn' to identify with 'names-religions-cults-, denominations-organizations, clubs, etc'.???

we 'both' have done this in various ways before 'conversion', and now, we KNOW WHY we did this - do you???

 

[Blue_Of_Lake]

If it is Gods Will that EVERYONE be saved but some are not saved because they chose to not be saved then they have over-ridden the Will of God, according to free-will thinking.

If God has saved everyone who He has willed to be saved then God is Sovereign.


I really don't understand how a person can read the bible, be saved by God and still think they are the ones who cause God to act instead of the other way around.

we All have a Conscience, a brain, a Life ... or most People i would think.. Any one Who wants this Saving thing (argued a 100 ways Or more) can Get on With it Any Day of the Week their Conscience Tell them they Did something Wrong.


a million People have heard About Jesus. easiest Religion in the World the Way alot of Christians believe it, Preach it. alot of people Do it, believe it Out of Fear, but Very easy to Believe.


very Easy to give your Life to Christ any Day of the Week your Conscience alert most anyone that Something Wrong, sinful or Not right with Their behaviour. any (or Many) Can listen to their Conscience if They so Choose (maybe).


anyone (or Most?) Can decide they want to Change for all We Know. let Us not HINDER any One in the World from Choosing to change (Repent).


⬇⬇


Romans 1:20
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.


⬆⬆


maybe Most anyone (or Many) can listen to the Truth plainly revealed in Creation and Themselves if they So Choose. People who over and over Again haven't Listened to Conscience since childhood -- maybe They cannot hear much anymore. But ..... maybe they Once Could.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Then why would He not have all men be saved?
Why is that not His WILL?

God is not restricted in saving all mankind if that is his will, because he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand (reject him), or say unto him, What doest thou? Dan 4:35. What doest thou means that we have no right to question his will. He says that his ways are higher than our ways, and past our understanding.

 

[Magenta]

No fault of their own... Good one...

Exactly: no fault of their own if God specifically made them to be fire fodder.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If it is Gods Will that EVERYONE be saved but some are not saved because they chose to not be saved then they have over-ridden the Will of God, according to free-will thinking.

If God has saved everyone who He has willed to be saved then God is Sovereign.


I really don't understand how a person can read the bible, be saved by God and still think they are the ones who cause God to act instead of the other way around.

I do not understand how you think I caused God to act out of his will

If God wants a love relationship with his creation he has the right does he not to set his true desires aside so that the people who do receive him can really respect him because they understand he did something that he did not have to do because they KNOW he did
Not have to save them he could have just let them die and spend eternity without him. That is where gratitude comes from, that is where live comes from that is where our rest comes from. Knowing god saved us even though he did not have too

I know you believe this also about the rest. Again where we disagree is when that salvation happened

If I am a father and I have to kids. I can be sovereign where I chose to live them and keep them Out of danger. Or Love them but allow them to live freely and suffer their own consequences. And even then offer salvation. But in love not force either of them to receive it even though that is my will

Love ya bro

 

[SoulWeaver]

Exactly: no fault of their own if God specifically made them to be fire fodder.

Some love to quote "Esau I hated" but forget that Esau gave up his wrath, demonstrated forgiveness, and reconciled with his brother.

 

[oldethennew]

weigh and try and discern the different 'doctrines', and they have to 'agree' with scripture, and NOT
any man's opinions or conclusions = we ultimately stand before the judgment seat of Christ and ARE
accountable for the conclusions that we have 'made concerning the Biblical Doctrines, therefore,
'walk circumspectly in the decisions of your mind!!!...

 

[EleventhHour]

God is not restricted in saving all mankind if that is his will, because he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand (reject him), or say unto him, What doest thou? Dan 4:35. What doest thou means that we have no right to question his will. He says that his ways are higher than our ways, and past our understanding.

Calvinism states that God chooses some for salvation and does not offer salvation to others.

I am not questioning His will because that is NOT His will.

 

[Magenta]

Some love to quote "Esau I hated" but forget that Esau gave up his wrath, demonstrated forgiveness, and reconciled with his brother.

Some also overlook the fact that Jacob and Esau were specifically identified as nations, representing (in the final analysis) believers (saved), and non-believers (those who experience the second and final, irrevocable death). Esau's descendants (Edomites) were enemies of God...

 

[EleventhHour]

Well you tell me.

God REALLY, REALLY wanted to do something but He wasn't able??? The will of the people of Jerusalem overpowered Gods Will???


That's not the view of Calvinism. The view of Calvinism is that God is Sovereign and God ALWAYS performs His Will.

So much so that He must deny what He states in His own written word?

No where does scripture state regeneration precedes faith... and that is just one example.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Calvinism states that God chooses some for salvation and does not offer salvation to others.

I am not questioning His will because that is NOT His will.

God does not "offer" eternal deliverance to anyone. He does, however, offer deliverance (salvation) to his children as they sojourn here in this world. Salvation, according to the Greek interpretation, means "a deliverance".

God granted mankind the freedom to make his own choices, as to how he wants to live his life, as he sojourns here in this world, and all mankind's choices was not to seek God, Psalms 53:2.

It's a good thing that he did not give mankind the freedom to choose his eternal destination, or none of us would populate heaven.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

So much so that He must deny what He states in His own written word?

No where does scripture state regeneration precedes faith... and that is just one example.

The natural person, before he has been regenerated, only has faith of man, and his accomplishments. He does not have spiritual faith until he has been regenerated and given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in which spiritual faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, Gal 5:22.

The natural person, before regeneration thinks the things of the Spirit are foolishness, and he cannot discern them, 1 Cor 2:14.

 

[Bbrdrd]

God does not "offer" eternal deliverance to anyone. He does, however, offer deliverance (salvation) to his children as they sojourn here in this world. Salvation, according to the Greek interpretation, means "a deliverance".

God granted mankind the freedom to make his own choices, as to how he wants to live his life, as he sojourns here in this world, and all mankind's choices was not to seek God, Psalms 53:2.

It's a good thing that he did not give mankind the freedom to choose his eternal destination, or none of us would populate heaven.

Are you really basing doctrine on a poetic device? The context of that poem makes it clear that 53:2 is hyperbole especially since immediately after it references God's people in contrast to the wicked it is speaking of in 53:1-4. It really shows poor exegetical skills when you treat every bit of Biblical literature as if it is the same type of literature. Recognizing the genre and the types of devices employed within that genre are critical to getting an accurate understanding.

 

[Nehemiah6]

The natural person, before regeneration thinks the things of the Spirit are foolishness, and he cannot discern them, 1 Cor 2:14.

This verse has its proper application, but it does not apply to the reception of the Gospel under the convicting and convincing power of the Holy Spirit. See Romans 10. For anything beyond the Gospel, those things must be understood spiirtually by those who possess the Holy Spirit. But the gift of the Holy Spirit is given to sinners who obey the Gospel [repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 2:38)].

 

[Grandpa]

Nice answer from your mentor Calvin....

My mentor says....Creation and the invisible testify and EVERY LANGUAGE can understand and because of this they are WITHOUT EXCUSE....but hey....keep believing a man over God......see how that works out for you!

Its not like Calvin is teaching me how to be a Christian. He's been dead for awhile.

I became a Christian and then studied theology. I found Calvinism to resonate with scripture and with my experience with God.


If you take all your pride and all your emotionalism out of the equation and just study scripture you will find perfect harmony in what Calvinism teaches. Generally.

 

[EleventhHour]

Its not like Calvin is teaching me how to be a Christian. He's been dead for awhile.

I became a Christian and then studied theology. I found Calvinism to resonate with scripture and with my experience with God.


If you take all your pride and all your emotionalism out of the equation and just study scripture you will find perfect harmony in what Calvinism teaches. Generally.

I am pretty sure pride and emotionalism have no bearing.

You think all of us who have studied scripture and do not see the tenets of Calvinism are filled with pride and emotionalism?

I will say that a Calvinist will always has their conversion experience fit the Calvinistic model.

It typically goes like this (I have read quite a few).... "all of sudden I was regenerated"
Some even state they did not hear the Gospel first.

 

[EleventhHour]

Its not like Calvin is teaching me how to be a Christian. He's been dead for awhile.

I became a Christian and then studied theology. I found Calvinism to resonate with scripture and with my experience with God.


If you take all your pride and all your emotionalism out of the equation and just study scripture you will find perfect harmony in what Calvinism teaches. Generally.

Umm..... sorry but this is also contradictory, Calvin is dead he does not teach you how to be a Christian and yet you found Calvinism to

resonate with scripture?