The Rapture Thief Robs Jesuit Futurism Of The 7 Years Of Tribulation
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Thanks for your condescending response. The scribes and pharisees were theologians too. How many of them did God chose to be His disciples? They missed the first coming, you missed the second coming but at least you didn't kill your Messiah. You only reject His teachings and badly misapply scripture. Not only that, you only rely on one of the synoptic Gospels instead of taking all three to get a fuller picture of the Olivet. Have you ever looked at the literal translation of Mat 24:3? I bet you haven't because it is most inconvenient for your side. So, humor me.
3 And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what [is] the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?' (YLT)
Thus the three questions in Mat 24 are:
1. when shall these things be?
2. and what shall be the sign of thy presence,
3. and of the full end of the age?
Mark records two questions. He doesn't even ask about Christ's presence because it is assumed:
4 `Tell us when these things shall be? and what [is] the sign when all these may be about to be fulfilled?'
Same thing for Luke's account.
7 And they questioned him, saying, `Teacher, when, then, shall these things be? and what [is] the sign when these things may be about to happen?'
Thus, it was to be the return of Christ's PRESENCE (parousia) not Him bodily and visibly. The opposite of parousia is absence it is NOT leaving. As you point out, it would be fast, like lightening. They asked for signs so they wouldn't miss it. Christ immediately starts listing off signs, all of them found in the first century. He doesn't mention any massive gap in time. He is addressing the signs leading up to the fall of the temple and links those signs to the end of the AGE, not the end of the world.
Actually the Christians fled to Pella, not Petra. I rode a camel through the pass at Petra. So, I've been places too. Most of the zealots who escaped fled to Masada, another place I have been. Visiting places gives us prospective, it doesn't make us experts.
Back to the literal translation. It was to be Christ's presence which was to return and the fall of the temple which would mark the end of the age, not the world or planet. I guess the important thing is they knew, the Jews of that day, what was happening and why, even though many of us today don't. They recognized their age was about to end as we see in the writings of Josephus:
So Titus retired into the tower of Antonia, and resolved to storm the temple the next day, early in the morning, with his whole army, and to encamp round about the holy house. But as for that house, God had, for certain, long ago doomed it to the fire; and now that fatal day was come, according to the revolution of ages. - War 6-4-5
The presence of God (or in this case His Son) should be expected when Israel was to be completely and utterly destroyed since His presence was there when the Babylonians destroyed it. If you read the 4 examples of 4 places in the OT which were destroyed in the 6th century BC we find nearly identical cosmic disturbances to those in Mat 24. The heavenly lights going dark at the presence of God is to be expected as He rides His glory cloud (clouds of heaven) blocking the sky. Josephus records this too.
Everything in Mat 24-25 was fulfilled.
I believe in the rapture. I just don't see it as a global one-time event whereby all living believers get whisked off to heaven. Rather it happens to us each individually when we die. The man Paul knew in 2 Cor 12 got raptured (harpazo) off to the third heaven. This would have happened around 41 AD. So, this was after the Cross and well before 70 AD and way well before you think the rapture is to occur. I assumed this man died and wasn't taken alive. Many assume it was Paul himself and this is how Paul seemed to know the most about the afterlife. Regardless...
Question: How is it that a man who died in 41 AD is raptured to heaven if the rapture is to be a future, one-time global event?
3 And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what [is] the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?' (YLT)
Thus the three questions in Mat 24 are:
1. when shall these things be?
2. and what shall be the sign of thy presence,
3. and of the full end of the age?
Mark records two questions. He doesn't even ask about Christ's presence because it is assumed:
4 `Tell us when these things shall be? and what [is] the sign when all these may be about to be fulfilled?'
Same thing for Luke's account.
7 And they questioned him, saying, `Teacher, when, then, shall these things be? and what [is] the sign when these things may be about to happen?'
Thus, it was to be the return of Christ's PRESENCE (parousia) not Him bodily and visibly. The opposite of parousia is absence it is NOT leaving. As you point out, it would be fast, like lightening. They asked for signs so they wouldn't miss it. Christ immediately starts listing off signs, all of them found in the first century. He doesn't mention any massive gap in time. He is addressing the signs leading up to the fall of the temple and links those signs to the end of the AGE, not the end of the world.
Actually the Christians fled to Pella, not Petra. I rode a camel through the pass at Petra. So, I've been places too. Most of the zealots who escaped fled to Masada, another place I have been. Visiting places gives us prospective, it doesn't make us experts.
Back to the literal translation. It was to be Christ's presence which was to return and the fall of the temple which would mark the end of the age, not the world or planet. I guess the important thing is they knew, the Jews of that day, what was happening and why, even though many of us today don't. They recognized their age was about to end as we see in the writings of Josephus:
So Titus retired into the tower of Antonia, and resolved to storm the temple the next day, early in the morning, with his whole army, and to encamp round about the holy house. But as for that house, God had, for certain, long ago doomed it to the fire; and now that fatal day was come, according to the revolution of ages. - War 6-4-5
The presence of God (or in this case His Son) should be expected when Israel was to be completely and utterly destroyed since His presence was there when the Babylonians destroyed it. If you read the 4 examples of 4 places in the OT which were destroyed in the 6th century BC we find nearly identical cosmic disturbances to those in Mat 24. The heavenly lights going dark at the presence of God is to be expected as He rides His glory cloud (clouds of heaven) blocking the sky. Josephus records this too.
Everything in Mat 24-25 was fulfilled.
I believe in the rapture. I just don't see it as a global one-time event whereby all living believers get whisked off to heaven. Rather it happens to us each individually when we die. The man Paul knew in 2 Cor 12 got raptured (harpazo) off to the third heaven. This would have happened around 41 AD. So, this was after the Cross and well before 70 AD and way well before you think the rapture is to occur. I assumed this man died and wasn't taken alive. Many assume it was Paul himself and this is how Paul seemed to know the most about the afterlife. Regardless...
Question: How is it that a man who died in 41 AD is raptured to heaven if the rapture is to be a future, one-time global event?
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Why do you insist on calling the preterist view "Jesuit" as if they invented it?? As I already informed you, the early church fathers were all preterists. Eusebius, Bishop of Cæsarea (265-339 AD) writes about the Great Tribulation as past fulfillment as do many others. Read it for yourself and learn something for a change. CS1 ought to read this too.
Chapter VII.—The Predictions of Christ.
1. It is fitting to add to these accounts the true prediction of our Saviour in which he foretold these very events.
2. His words are as follows: “Woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day. For there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.”
3. The historian, reckoning the whole number of the slain, says that eleven hundred thousand persons perished by famine and sword, and that the rest of the rioters and robbers, being betrayed by each other after the taking of the city, were slain. But the tallest of the youths and those that were distinguished for beauty were preserved for the triumph. Of the rest of the multitude, those that were over seventeen years of age were sent as prisoners to labor in the works of Egypt, while still more were scattered through the provinces to meet their death in the theaters by the sword and by beasts. Those under seventeen years of age were carried away to be sold as slaves, and of these alone the number reached ninety thousand.
4. These things took place in this manner in the second year of the reign of Vespasian, in accordance with the prophecies of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who by divine power saw them beforehand as if they were already present, and wept and mourned according to the statement of the holy evangelists, who give the very words which he uttered, when, as if addressing Jerusalem herself, he said:
5. “If thou hadst known, even thou, in this day, the things which belong unto thy peace! But now they are hid from thine eyes. For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a rampart about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, and shall lay thee and thy children even with the ground.”
6. And then, as if speaking concerning the people, he says, “For there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.” And again: “When ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.”
7. If any one compares the words of our Saviour with the other accounts of the historian concerning the whole war, how can one fail to wonder, and to admit that the foreknowledge and the prophecy of our Saviour were truly divine and marvellously strange.
8. Concerning those calamities, then, that befell the whole Jewish nation after the Saviour’s passion and after the words which the multitude of the Jews uttered, when they begged the release of the robber and murderer, but besought that the Prince of Life should be taken from their midst, it is not necessary to add anything to the account of the historian.
9. But it may be proper to mention also those events which exhibited the graciousness of that all-good Providence which held back their destruction full forty years after their crime against Christ,—during which time many of the apostles and disciples, and James himself the first bishop there, the one who is called the brother of the Lord, were still alive, and dwelling in Jerusalem itself, remained the surest bulwark of the place. Divine Providence thus still proved itself long-suffering toward them in order to see whether by repentance for what they had done they might obtain pardon and salvation; and in addition to such long-suffering, Providence also furnished wonderful signs of the things which were about to happen to them if they did not repent.
10. Since these matters have been thought worthy of mention by the historian already cited, we cannot do better than to recount them for the benefit of the readers of this work.
Chapter VII.—The Predictions of Christ.
1. It is fitting to add to these accounts the true prediction of our Saviour in which he foretold these very events.
2. His words are as follows: “Woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day. For there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.”
3. The historian, reckoning the whole number of the slain, says that eleven hundred thousand persons perished by famine and sword, and that the rest of the rioters and robbers, being betrayed by each other after the taking of the city, were slain. But the tallest of the youths and those that were distinguished for beauty were preserved for the triumph. Of the rest of the multitude, those that were over seventeen years of age were sent as prisoners to labor in the works of Egypt, while still more were scattered through the provinces to meet their death in the theaters by the sword and by beasts. Those under seventeen years of age were carried away to be sold as slaves, and of these alone the number reached ninety thousand.
4. These things took place in this manner in the second year of the reign of Vespasian, in accordance with the prophecies of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who by divine power saw them beforehand as if they were already present, and wept and mourned according to the statement of the holy evangelists, who give the very words which he uttered, when, as if addressing Jerusalem herself, he said:
5. “If thou hadst known, even thou, in this day, the things which belong unto thy peace! But now they are hid from thine eyes. For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a rampart about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, and shall lay thee and thy children even with the ground.”
6. And then, as if speaking concerning the people, he says, “For there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.” And again: “When ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.”
7. If any one compares the words of our Saviour with the other accounts of the historian concerning the whole war, how can one fail to wonder, and to admit that the foreknowledge and the prophecy of our Saviour were truly divine and marvellously strange.
8. Concerning those calamities, then, that befell the whole Jewish nation after the Saviour’s passion and after the words which the multitude of the Jews uttered, when they begged the release of the robber and murderer, but besought that the Prince of Life should be taken from their midst, it is not necessary to add anything to the account of the historian.
9. But it may be proper to mention also those events which exhibited the graciousness of that all-good Providence which held back their destruction full forty years after their crime against Christ,—during which time many of the apostles and disciples, and James himself the first bishop there, the one who is called the brother of the Lord, were still alive, and dwelling in Jerusalem itself, remained the surest bulwark of the place. Divine Providence thus still proved itself long-suffering toward them in order to see whether by repentance for what they had done they might obtain pardon and salvation; and in addition to such long-suffering, Providence also furnished wonderful signs of the things which were about to happen to them if they did not repent.
10. Since these matters have been thought worthy of mention by the historian already cited, we cannot do better than to recount them for the benefit of the readers of this work.
Something missing from this discussion with you stating they've already been fulfilled and others saying there is a future to them is that often when it comes to salvation and judgment oracles there is a double meaning in their fulfillment, one immediate future and one eschatological. Take Isaiah 7:10-16 as an example, the prophecy was given as a sign to Ahaz and the country at the time to assure them that the Lord was with them and they need not fear meaning it had to have been fulfilled within the lifetime of Ahaz. Yet this fulfilled prophecy was then fulfilled in a fuller sense with the advent of Jesus ushering in the end times. So arguing that a prophecy is fulfilled in the past does not necessarily preclude it from being fulfilled in a fuller sense eschatologically.[/QUOTE]
A specific prophesy addressed to a specific group when it takes place to them is fulfilled. If something similar happens again in the distant future to a different group of people, that is called coincidence, not fuller fulfillment. Thanks for weighing in and recognizing Jesus ushered in the end times of Israel.
A specific prophesy addressed to a specific group when it takes place to them is fulfilled. If something similar happens again in the distant future to a different group of people, that is called coincidence, not fuller fulfillment. Thanks for weighing in and recognizing Jesus ushered in the end times of Israel.
C'mon, CS1, you know full well the secret rapture ain't my idea, but is popular Christian myth...glad that you know "if they say He is in the the secret chambers, believe it not."
Now, if you could just give up on that nonsense about Jesus coming back as a thief two times! Don't you agree that all the news organizations that are "left behind" will have a "7 year tribulation countdown clock" at the top corner of their screens?
Now, if you could just give up on that nonsense about Jesus coming back as a thief two times! Don't you agree that all the news organizations that are "left behind" will have a "7 year tribulation countdown clock" at the top corner of their screens?
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We can't make partial fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy the entire fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy. Has Jesus' glorious, universally visible return happened yet? Of course not.
We also can't twist the ECF's commentary so that it conforms to Jesuit Preterism due to a lack of full knowledge of what the ECFs wrote about eschatology. H.Grattan Guiness was considered "England's Greatest Prophecy Teacher" and proves the ECFs were all Historicist: https://nicklasarthur.wordpress.com...-fathers-were-historicist-h-grattan-guinness/
We also can't twist the ECF's commentary so that it conforms to Jesuit Preterism due to a lack of full knowledge of what the ECFs wrote about eschatology. H.Grattan Guiness was considered "England's Greatest Prophecy Teacher" and proves the ECFs were all Historicist: https://nicklasarthur.wordpress.com...-fathers-were-historicist-h-grattan-guinness/
I didn't twist Eusebius words. I copied and pasted the chapter, without edit, where he states that the great tribulation was the siege of 70 AD and Jerusalem's destruction. No twisting.
Stick to the topic. Who cares what Guiness thinks about the ECF? Either the ECFs saw the great tribulation as past or they saw it as future. Eusebius saw it as past. If Eusebius is correct, he agrees with my position. If Eusebius is correct, your side has a MASSIVELY HUGE and INSURMOUNTABLE problem because of this verse.
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
"Immediately after" is pretty self-explanatory, even for the English grammarly challenged (like CS1), unless you are going to apply your last days = 2,000 year rule
????
Let me guess, the great tribulation ends then we have this huge gap of centuries, then the Lord comes back in our lifetime. Just like the way you butcher Dan 9.
You are really showing your lack of knowledge. "Universally visible?" I think I know where you are getting this from, Rev 1:7 right? Perhaps you need to look at the literal translation.
7 Lo, he doth come with the clouds, and see him shall every eye, even those who did pierce him, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land. Yes! Amen!
The TRIBES OF THE LAND = THE TRIBES OF ISRAEL.
When you see LAND, it almost always refers to a specific place, nation or people. Are you learning anything yet or are you keeping your blinders on?
Stick to the topic. Who cares what Guiness thinks about the ECF? Either the ECFs saw the great tribulation as past or they saw it as future. Eusebius saw it as past. If Eusebius is correct, he agrees with my position. If Eusebius is correct, your side has a MASSIVELY HUGE and INSURMOUNTABLE problem because of this verse.
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
"Immediately after" is pretty self-explanatory, even for the English grammarly challenged (like CS1), unless you are going to apply your last days = 2,000 year rule
????Let me guess, the great tribulation ends then we have this huge gap of centuries, then the Lord comes back in our lifetime. Just like the way you butcher Dan 9.
You are really showing your lack of knowledge. "Universally visible?" I think I know where you are getting this from, Rev 1:7 right? Perhaps you need to look at the literal translation.
7 Lo, he doth come with the clouds, and see him shall every eye, even those who did pierce him, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land. Yes! Amen!
The TRIBES OF THE LAND = THE TRIBES OF ISRAEL.
When you see LAND, it almost always refers to a specific place, nation or people. Are you learning anything yet or are you keeping your blinders on?
I didn't twist Eusebius words. I copied and pasted the chapter, without edit, where he states that the great tribulation was the siege of 70 AD and Jerusalem's destruction. No twisting.
Stick to the topic. Who cares what Guiness thinks about the ECF? Either the ECFs saw the great tribulation as past or they saw it as future. Eusebius saw it as past. If Eusebius is correct, he agrees with my position. If Eusebius is correct, your side has a MASSIVELY HUGE and INSURMOUNTABLE problem because of this verse.
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
"Immediately after" is pretty self-explanatory, even for the English grammarly challenged (like CS1), unless you are going to apply your last days = 2,000 year rule????
Let me guess, the great tribulation ends then we have this huge gap of centuries, then the Lord comes back in our lifetime. Just like the way you butcher Dan 9.
You are really showing your lack of knowledge. "Universally visible?" I think I know where you are getting this from, Rev 1:7 right? Perhaps you need to look at the literal translation.
7 Lo, he doth come with the clouds, and see him shall every eye, even those who did pierce him, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land. Yes! Amen!
The TRIBES OF THE LAND = THE TRIBES OF ISRAEL.
When you see LAND, it almost always refers to a specific place, nation or people. Are you learning anything yet or are you keeping your blinders on?
Stick to the topic. Who cares what Guiness thinks about the ECF? Either the ECFs saw the great tribulation as past or they saw it as future. Eusebius saw it as past. If Eusebius is correct, he agrees with my position. If Eusebius is correct, your side has a MASSIVELY HUGE and INSURMOUNTABLE problem because of this verse.
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
"Immediately after" is pretty self-explanatory, even for the English grammarly challenged (like CS1), unless you are going to apply your last days = 2,000 year rule
????Let me guess, the great tribulation ends then we have this huge gap of centuries, then the Lord comes back in our lifetime. Just like the way you butcher Dan 9.
You are really showing your lack of knowledge. "Universally visible?" I think I know where you are getting this from, Rev 1:7 right? Perhaps you need to look at the literal translation.
7 Lo, he doth come with the clouds, and see him shall every eye, even those who did pierce him, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land. Yes! Amen!
The TRIBES OF THE LAND = THE TRIBES OF ISRAEL.
When you see LAND, it almost always refers to a specific place, nation or people. Are you learning anything yet or are you keeping your blinders on?
God is not a man.
The one time promised outward demonstration of the power of father not seen working in the Son of man Jesus (powerless)as a prophet apostle, ended. Although some did known the working of the father in the Son of man .
Jesus did not do the will of his corrupted flesh which he said profits for zero. he had food that the disciples knew not of (doing the will of the father that worked in the Son of man.)
When he left he left clear instruction that we know him no more forever more after the corrupted rudiments of this creation.
God is not a man .He has no beginning of Spirt life or end thereof. He remain or High priest continually
We walk by faith the eternal not seen not by sight the temporal
2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more
The ECF's is not a source of Christian faith . They as a law of the fathers are the ones attempted to make all things written in the law and the prophets (sola scriptura) without effect. They could not prove the word of God was heresy and their law of men the true source of faith . They like the disciples in John 6 walked away faithless .No faith that comes from hearing God.
Acts 24: 13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
The difference .They worshipped the fathers the things seen as if as a whole legion of fathers replaced (usurp) our unseen father in heaven .While born again Paul worshiped the God of the fathers .Again not the fathers as if they were God.
The think not doctrine..
Matthew 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
lively stones from all the nations make up the one bride of Christ, the church .
We walk by faith the unseen eternal
1 Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
Acts 24: 13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
The difference .They worshipped the fathers the things seen as if as a whole legion of fathers replaced (usurp) our unseen father in heaven .While born again Paul worshiped the God of the fathers .Again not the fathers as if they were God.
The think not doctrine..
Matthew 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
lively stones from all the nations make up the one bride of Christ, the church .
We walk by faith the unseen eternal
1 Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
As long as you understand what the great tribulation is, you will be fine - the suffering of the wicked Jews during the siege of Jerusalem in the first century after the Church fled to Pella. Jesus came immediately after it and raised the dead. This is historical fact. The "rapture" or harpazo occurs individually when believers die for those who were still alive or not yet born when the resurrection occurred. 2 Cor 12:2 drives this point home. Here a man in 41 AD was caught up or raptured to heaven when he died. He must have recovered and returned to his body otherwise Paul wouldn't have known about the inexpressible words heard in heaven.
Correction, God came in 66 AD with Christ and raised the dead. God brought those who were sleeping in Jesus to Heaven. Those who were still alive and remaining past that day, get raptured immediately upon their death. Sorry for my mis-statement. Jesus stayed behind to assist the Romans in the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem. I believe that is the proper sequence.
A specific prophesy addressed to a specific group when it takes place to them is fulfilled. If something similar happens again in the distant future to a different group of people, that is called coincidence, not fuller fulfillment. Thanks for weighing in and recognizing Jesus ushered in the end times of Israel.[/QUOTE]
You seem to have missed my example that demonstrates the principle. Isaiah 7 was directed at and fulfilled within the lifetime of those who heard the prophecy, but the Bible confirms that it was fulfilled a second time as part of eschatology. Not a mere coincidence but that the prophecy was intended both as a near future and final fulfillment. Jesus didn't simply usher in the end times for Israel but the end times for all. We are in the last days, the "Now, but not yet" of the promises of God simply waiting for consummation.
You seem to have missed my example that demonstrates the principle. Isaiah 7 was directed at and fulfilled within the lifetime of those who heard the prophecy, but the Bible confirms that it was fulfilled a second time as part of eschatology. Not a mere coincidence but that the prophecy was intended both as a near future and final fulfillment. Jesus didn't simply usher in the end times for Israel but the end times for all. We are in the last days, the "Now, but not yet" of the promises of God simply waiting for consummation.
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I don't think the preterist view of the great tribulation matches what the Bible describes the GT as. That's one of the fatal flaws of partial/full preterism that makes it hard to take on board.
You would think that if the GT happened in the time period the Bible was written in we would have a rich eyewitness account detailing what happened. Instead we have a rather vague expectation of wars, famines, plagues, etc with no specific time frames because the mystery of the return of the Son of Man is a secret that only the Father knows. The lack of material written about this is attributed to the fact it hasn't happened yet.
If that wasn't enough, the GT is said to be so intense that no one could survive it unless it was cut short - making it on par with an event like the Great Flood of Noah's day that killed everyone except those inside of the ark. Something like that didn't happen on 41 AD or any time since. Not even close.
You would think that if the GT happened in the time period the Bible was written in we would have a rich eyewitness account detailing what happened. Instead we have a rather vague expectation of wars, famines, plagues, etc with no specific time frames because the mystery of the return of the Son of Man is a secret that only the Father knows. The lack of material written about this is attributed to the fact it hasn't happened yet.
If that wasn't enough, the GT is said to be so intense that no one could survive it unless it was cut short - making it on par with an event like the Great Flood of Noah's day that killed everyone except those inside of the ark. Something like that didn't happen on 41 AD or any time since. Not even close.
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You seem to have missed my example that demonstrates the principle. Isaiah 7 was directed at and fulfilled within the lifetime of those who heard the prophecy, but the Bible confirms that it was fulfilled a second time as part of eschatology. Not a mere coincidence but that the prophecy was intended both as a near future and final fulfillment. Jesus didn't simply usher in the end times for Israel but the end times for all. We are in the last days, the "Now, but not yet" of the promises of God simply waiting for consummation.[/QUOTE]
I see the prediction of Jesus in Isa 7 but see nothing about any future judgment to our times. We are certainly NOT in the last days. They were in the last days as confirmed by the writer of Hebrews:
God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds.
If you are one of these gap placers who find no problem adding 100 generations or 712,000 days to "last days," then you've lost all credibility with me. Once people start adding things to make their view work, they can then make the Bible say or mean anything they want. Once Christ completed His redemptive work on the Cross, the only left for Him to do was come back during that generation to punish those wicked Jews, that perverse and adulterous generation, which He promised to do and to free the captives in Hades, all of which He did.
There is no prophesy about our times that I can find with the possible exception of a little bit in Rev 20. Rev 21-22 deals with the afterlife so that's future to all living people, but past to those who died and gone ahead.
I see the prediction of Jesus in Isa 7 but see nothing about any future judgment to our times. We are certainly NOT in the last days. They were in the last days as confirmed by the writer of Hebrews:
God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds.
If you are one of these gap placers who find no problem adding 100 generations or 712,000 days to "last days," then you've lost all credibility with me. Once people start adding things to make their view work, they can then make the Bible say or mean anything they want. Once Christ completed His redemptive work on the Cross, the only left for Him to do was come back during that generation to punish those wicked Jews, that perverse and adulterous generation, which He promised to do and to free the captives in Hades, all of which He did.
There is no prophesy about our times that I can find with the possible exception of a little bit in Rev 20. Rev 21-22 deals with the afterlife so that's future to all living people, but past to those who died and gone ahead.
I see the prediction of Jesus in Isa 7 but see nothing about any future judgment to our times. We are certainly NOT in the last days. They were in the last days as confirmed by the writer of Hebrews:
God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds.
If you are one of these gap placers who find no problem adding 100 generations or 712,000 days to "last days," then you've lost all credibility with me. Once people start adding things to make their view work, they can then make the Bible say or mean anything they want. Once Christ completed His redemptive work on the Cross, the only left for Him to do was come back during that generation to punish those wicked Jews, that perverse and adulterous generation, which He promised to do and to free the captives in Hades, all of which He did.
There is no prophesy about our times that I can find with the possible exception of a little bit in Rev 20. Rev 21-22 deals with the afterlife so that's future to all living people, but past to those who died and gone ahead.[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure what you mean by gaps, if you're refering to Daniel 7 then no I agree it was fulfilled in 66-73 AD. You agree with the fulfillment of Jesus, but my point is that it was fulfilled twice once with Hezekiah and then more completely(and eschatologically) with Jesus. That demonstrates the principle that a prophecy having a fulfilment with Israel does not preclude a future fulfillment that fits better with the literal language.
There are all sorts of problems with claiming Revelation was fulfilled in 70 AD or prior considering it most likely wasn't written until sometime around 96 AD and was presented as being future to that date.
The last days began with the Messiah coming exactly as predicted by Scripture not just to Israel but to the whole Earth. The whole New Testament is dripping with references to being in the last days and while the oracles about the final consummation not yet being fulfilled.
Of course aguing over how and when and all of that seems rather pointless to me since it really doesn't change much about the mission and its immanence. Yet to deny that there is a future final victory where sin and death are both destroyed is to rob Christianity of its hope, a mistake so grievous that Paul put Hymaneus and Philetus out of fellowship for teaching.
God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds.
If you are one of these gap placers who find no problem adding 100 generations or 712,000 days to "last days," then you've lost all credibility with me. Once people start adding things to make their view work, they can then make the Bible say or mean anything they want. Once Christ completed His redemptive work on the Cross, the only left for Him to do was come back during that generation to punish those wicked Jews, that perverse and adulterous generation, which He promised to do and to free the captives in Hades, all of which He did.
There is no prophesy about our times that I can find with the possible exception of a little bit in Rev 20. Rev 21-22 deals with the afterlife so that's future to all living people, but past to those who died and gone ahead.[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure what you mean by gaps, if you're refering to Daniel 7 then no I agree it was fulfilled in 66-73 AD. You agree with the fulfillment of Jesus, but my point is that it was fulfilled twice once with Hezekiah and then more completely(and eschatologically) with Jesus. That demonstrates the principle that a prophecy having a fulfilment with Israel does not preclude a future fulfillment that fits better with the literal language.
There are all sorts of problems with claiming Revelation was fulfilled in 70 AD or prior considering it most likely wasn't written until sometime around 96 AD and was presented as being future to that date.
The last days began with the Messiah coming exactly as predicted by Scripture not just to Israel but to the whole Earth. The whole New Testament is dripping with references to being in the last days and while the oracles about the final consummation not yet being fulfilled.
Of course aguing over how and when and all of that seems rather pointless to me since it really doesn't change much about the mission and its immanence. Yet to deny that there is a future final victory where sin and death are both destroyed is to rob Christianity of its hope, a mistake so grievous that Paul put Hymaneus and Philetus out of fellowship for teaching.
Unfortunately all the disciples were dead by 70 AD with the exception of John but he was in Patmos and he covers the great tribulation and the events leading up to it in pretty good detail in Revelation. Then Josephus documents it too bringing Revelation to life without using all the symbols that John used to disguise it from his Roman captures. Correct, the death count inside Jerusalem had already reached 93% so if God didn't shorten those days, there would have been no flesh inside left alive. Clearly, the GT was NOT to be a global event as only those in Judea were told to flee. One could not flee a global death event.
As I posted previously the early church recognized it as I posted the below writings of Eusebius. Here it is again in case you missed it.
Chapter VII.—The Predictions of Christ.
1. It is fitting to add to these accounts the true prediction of our Saviour in which he foretold these very events.
2. His words are as follows:644 “Woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day. For there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.”
3. The historian, reckoning the whole number of the slain, says that eleven hundred thousand persons perished by famine and sword,645 and that the rest of the rioters and robbers, being betrayed by each other after the taking of the city, were slain.646 But the tallest of the youths and those that were distinguished for beauty were preserved for the triumph. Of the rest of the multitude, those that were over seventeen years of age were sent as prisoners to labor in the works of Egypt,647 while still more were scattered through the provinces to meet their death in the theaters by the sword and by beasts. Those under seventeen years of age were carried away to be sold as slaves, and of these alone the number reached ninety thousand.648
4. These things took place in this manner in the second year of the reign of Vespasian,649 in accordance with the prophecies of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who by divine power saw them beforehand as if they were already present, and wept and mourned according to the statement of the holy evangelists, who give the very words which he uttered, when, as if addressing Jerusalem herself, he said:650
5. “If thou hadst known, even thou, in this day, the things which belong unto thy peace! But now they are hid from thine eyes. For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a rampart about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, and shall lay thee and thy children even with the ground.”
6. And then, as if speaking concerning the people, he says,651 “For there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.” And again:652 “When ye shall see Jerusalem com142passed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.”
7. If any one compares the words of our Saviour with the other accounts of the historian concerning the whole war, how can one fail to wonder, and to admit that the foreknowledge and the prophecy of our Saviour were truly divine and marvellously strange.653
8. Concerning those calamities, then, that befell the whole Jewish nation after the Saviour’s passion and after the words which the multitude of the Jews uttered, when they begged the release of the robber and murderer, but besought that the Prince of Life should be taken from their midst,654 it is not necessary to add anything to the account of the historian.
9. But it may be proper to mention also those events which exhibited the graciousness of that all-good Providence which held back their destruction full forty years after their crime against Christ,—during which time many of the apostles and disciples, and James himself the first bishop there, the one who is called the brother of the Lord,655 were still alive, and dwelling in Jerusalem itself, remained the surest bulwark of the place. Divine Providence thus still proved itself long-suffering toward them in order to see whether by repentance for what they had done they might obtain pardon and salvation; and in addition to such long-suffering, Providence also furnished wonderful signs of the things which were about to happen to them if they did not repent.
10. Since these matters have been thought worthy of mention by the historian already cited, we cannot do better than to recount them for the benefit of the readers of this work.
As I posted previously the early church recognized it as I posted the below writings of Eusebius. Here it is again in case you missed it.
Chapter VII.—The Predictions of Christ.
1. It is fitting to add to these accounts the true prediction of our Saviour in which he foretold these very events.
2. His words are as follows:644 “Woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day. For there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.”
3. The historian, reckoning the whole number of the slain, says that eleven hundred thousand persons perished by famine and sword,645 and that the rest of the rioters and robbers, being betrayed by each other after the taking of the city, were slain.646 But the tallest of the youths and those that were distinguished for beauty were preserved for the triumph. Of the rest of the multitude, those that were over seventeen years of age were sent as prisoners to labor in the works of Egypt,647 while still more were scattered through the provinces to meet their death in the theaters by the sword and by beasts. Those under seventeen years of age were carried away to be sold as slaves, and of these alone the number reached ninety thousand.648
4. These things took place in this manner in the second year of the reign of Vespasian,649 in accordance with the prophecies of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who by divine power saw them beforehand as if they were already present, and wept and mourned according to the statement of the holy evangelists, who give the very words which he uttered, when, as if addressing Jerusalem herself, he said:650
5. “If thou hadst known, even thou, in this day, the things which belong unto thy peace! But now they are hid from thine eyes. For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a rampart about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, and shall lay thee and thy children even with the ground.”
6. And then, as if speaking concerning the people, he says,651 “For there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.” And again:652 “When ye shall see Jerusalem com142passed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.”
7. If any one compares the words of our Saviour with the other accounts of the historian concerning the whole war, how can one fail to wonder, and to admit that the foreknowledge and the prophecy of our Saviour were truly divine and marvellously strange.653
8. Concerning those calamities, then, that befell the whole Jewish nation after the Saviour’s passion and after the words which the multitude of the Jews uttered, when they begged the release of the robber and murderer, but besought that the Prince of Life should be taken from their midst,654 it is not necessary to add anything to the account of the historian.
9. But it may be proper to mention also those events which exhibited the graciousness of that all-good Providence which held back their destruction full forty years after their crime against Christ,—during which time many of the apostles and disciples, and James himself the first bishop there, the one who is called the brother of the Lord,655 were still alive, and dwelling in Jerusalem itself, remained the surest bulwark of the place. Divine Providence thus still proved itself long-suffering toward them in order to see whether by repentance for what they had done they might obtain pardon and salvation; and in addition to such long-suffering, Providence also furnished wonderful signs of the things which were about to happen to them if they did not repent.
10. Since these matters have been thought worthy of mention by the historian already cited, we cannot do better than to recount them for the benefit of the readers of this work.
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Do you not know that there is only one root source for the 96 AD dating of Revelation? That source comes from triple hearsay evidence. The source was a second century French clergyman, Irenaeus, who in his writings was recalling a conversation he had with Polycarp some 35 years earlier. Polycarp was thought to have known John. John may have told Polycarp that he was released by Domitian or perhaps Irenaeus misunderstand or recalled incorrectly. Regardless, we have a much more reliable source, the Syrian version of the Apocalypse which states in the title that John was vanquished to Patmos by the Emperor Nero. Besides all of this, everything that happens in Revelation is chronicled by Josephus. Josephus basically explains all the prophetic symbols that John employed without even realizing he was doing it.
I think you mean Dan 9, but good. I hate gaps when none is taught. The Word was not written to confuse us or to make us play mental gymnastics to figure things out.
Final consummation?? Of Daniel 9?? Consume by fire? How do you think Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed? Daniel was shown the end of the temple which was to be built. Nothing was told to him about a 3rd temple. Heck, there wasn't even a second temple yet. Why would Daniel be told how the third temple would be destroyed if he wasn't told about the end of the 2nd?
I think you mean Dan 9, but good. I hate gaps when none is taught. The Word was not written to confuse us or to make us play mental gymnastics to figure things out.
Final consummation?? Of Daniel 9?? Consume by fire? How do you think Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed? Daniel was shown the end of the temple which was to be built. Nothing was told to him about a 3rd temple. Heck, there wasn't even a second temple yet. Why would Daniel be told how the third temple would be destroyed if he wasn't told about the end of the 2nd?
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Naw, man, you're still conflating two distinct issues.
1) "the Day of the Lord" ARRIVES as "a thief IN THE NIGHT" [i.e. the TIME PERIOD, its ARRIVAL] (being distinct from...)
2) "Behold, *I* come AS A THIEF." [i.e. Jesus HIMSELF]... at the Armageddon point in time (i.e. Rev19 / Rev16:14-16 / Rev20:5 / Rev19:19,21); NO "IN THE NIGHT" phrase is used with regard to JESUS HIMSELF and His PERSONAL "RETURN" to the earth (Rev19 / Armageddon)
These are not the same point in time.
No. Peter is speaking of the entire "DOTL" time period (which SPANS a GREAT DURATION OF TIME... "IN WHICH" MUCH will transpire, even 1) the 7-yr trib unfolding upon the earth, 2) His "RETURN" to the earth, 3) the entire 1000-yr reign on/over the earth. ALL THAT [="the Day of the Lord" time period]). He's telling the manner of its ARRIVAL (just like Paul refers to its ARRIVAL in 1Th5:2-3 [as an INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" just like Jesus spoke of in His Olivet Discourse: it is NOT "ONE and DONE" when it comes to the BPs!! ]) AND Peter also tells what all takes place WITHIN it (MUCH... during a great SPANS of TIME! [again, may the reader be sure to read both chpts of Isaiah 34-35 and not merely 34:4 wrenched from its overall context])
Remember, He "come BACK" (i.e. "RETURNS" to the earth) ONCE (at Armageddon time-slot). But the rapture occurs BEFORE "the DOTL [TIME-PERIOD]" can commence to unfold upon the earth; and what FOLLOWS that EVENT [/our Rapture] is: the ARRIVAL of the man of sin IN HIS TIME [and ALL he will DO over the course of SOME TIME, as we see in Scripture], the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR, 1Th5:2-3]" and many more of THOSE [just like Jesus said!], and God SEND[ing] ['them'/certain ones] "GREAT DELUSION, that they should believe the LIE/the FALSE/the pseudei" [entailing some time], parallel with passages I've pointed out in past posts. There will be those who will come to believe the TRUTH just as there will be those who come to believe THE LIE, [FOLLOWING "our Rapture"] during those trib yrs (I pointed that out also, those passages).
What I think you are saying is that, after "our Rapture" (under the idea that it is "pre-trib"--which I believe Scripture shows) that people will be able to simply COUNT DOWN to His RETURN to the earth (Rev19 / Armageddon) and ta-da! there's no way they can be "caught off guard" by [His Personal RETURN] "AS A THIEF" (Rev16:15-16).
But when you read the passages that parallel this time-slot (His "RETURN" to the earth), this is exactly the exhortation to them: "watch and be ready" (compare Matt24:42-47,48-51 with Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44,45-48 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" THEN the meal, i.e the earthly MK age [these folks are still on the earth, in this context, and He's returning there [at that point] as an ALREADY-WED "Bridegroom" [these WISE and UNWISE are NOT "the BRIDE/WIFE [SINGULAR]"--He's not coming to MARRY them, though the WISE of them [i.e. 'saved persons'] WILL ENTER the earthly MK age with [accompanying] Him).
See the enlarged verses ^ ... where it is saying what it does about the "EVIL servant"... and what "he shall say in his heart" and how they will be "cut him asunder" and "appoint his portion with the hypocrites / unbelievers"... "weeping and gnashing of teeth" (i.e. NOT be ENTERING the MK age... like the "BLESSED" and the "RIGHTEOUS" will do, at that point in time [recall, this is not the "Rapture" point in time being spoken of, but their entrance into the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom (or not entering)]).
These passages state, "if the goodman of the house had known what hour [or, in what watch] the thief would come, he would have watched, and not suffered his house to be broken up [/through]." Not ALL will have that negative experience. SOME will have obeyed the imperative / command to "watch and be ready" (again, this is not a "Rapture" passage). THOSE (at the end of the trib [CONTEXT]) who will have done so ['watch and be ready'] will be "BLESSED" [i.e. ENTER the earthly MK age] (not be "broken up / broken through," see ).
Some will heed God's word (just as in Noah's day), and others will not (just as in Noah's day).
[this CONTEXT is "His Second Coming TO THE EARTH Rev19/Armageddon (NOT "our Rapture")--not everyone will have heeded God's Word--not everyone will come to the end being the "BLESSED" / the "RIGHTEOUS" and enter the earthly MK age (the MEAL [G347]) to enjoy and experience it. No. Some will disregard His word. And some will "believe the LIE/the FALSE/the pseudei"... and all of this FOLLOWS "our Rapture," which was way back BEFORE the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" falls upon the earth... and we can see the 24 elders saying "hast redeemed US out-from..." way back at Rev5:9... BEFORE the first SEAL is opened (and Rev1:1 [comp.1:19c / 4:1 / (7:3)] says that time period (that ASPECT of the DOTL time period, the "IN THE NIGHT" aspect [7-yrs]) must "come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"... NOT transpire over some 2000 years, as the Historicist has it ]
This is what Scripture itself informs us about how things will go down. In more than one place.
I've endeavored to point them out in past posts.
1) "the Day of the Lord" ARRIVES as "a thief IN THE NIGHT" [i.e. the TIME PERIOD, its ARRIVAL] (being distinct from...)
2) "Behold, *I* come AS A THIEF." [i.e. Jesus HIMSELF]... at the Armageddon point in time (i.e. Rev19 / Rev16:14-16 / Rev20:5 / Rev19:19,21); NO "IN THE NIGHT" phrase is used with regard to JESUS HIMSELF and His PERSONAL "RETURN" to the earth (Rev19 / Armageddon)
These are not the same point in time.
No. Peter is speaking of the entire "DOTL" time period (which SPANS a GREAT DURATION OF TIME... "IN WHICH" MUCH will transpire, even 1) the 7-yr trib unfolding upon the earth, 2) His "RETURN" to the earth, 3) the entire 1000-yr reign on/over the earth. ALL THAT [="the Day of the Lord" time period]). He's telling the manner of its ARRIVAL (just like Paul refers to its ARRIVAL in 1Th5:2-3 [as an INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" just like Jesus spoke of in His Olivet Discourse: it is NOT "ONE and DONE" when it comes to the BPs!!
]) AND Peter also tells what all takes place WITHIN it (MUCH... during a great SPANS of TIME! [again, may the reader be sure to read both chpts of Isaiah 34-35 and not merely 34:4 wrenched from its overall context])Remember, He "come BACK" (i.e. "RETURNS" to the earth) ONCE (at Armageddon time-slot). But the rapture occurs BEFORE "the DOTL [TIME-PERIOD]" can commence to unfold upon the earth; and what FOLLOWS that EVENT [/our Rapture] is: the ARRIVAL of the man of sin IN HIS TIME [and ALL he will DO over the course of SOME TIME, as we see in Scripture], the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR, 1Th5:2-3]" and many more of THOSE [just like Jesus said!], and God SEND[ing] ['them'/certain ones] "GREAT DELUSION, that they should believe the LIE/the FALSE/the pseudei" [entailing some time], parallel with passages I've pointed out in past posts. There will be those who will come to believe the TRUTH just as there will be those who come to believe THE LIE, [FOLLOWING "our Rapture"] during those trib yrs (I pointed that out also, those passages).
What I think you are saying is that, after "our Rapture" (under the idea that it is "pre-trib"--which I believe Scripture shows) that people will be able to simply COUNT DOWN to His RETURN to the earth (Rev19 / Armageddon) and ta-da! there's no way they can be "caught off guard" by [His Personal RETURN] "AS A THIEF" (Rev16:15-16).
But when you read the passages that parallel this time-slot (His "RETURN" to the earth), this is exactly the exhortation to them: "watch and be ready" (compare Matt24:42-47,48-51 with Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44,45-48 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" THEN the meal, i.e the earthly MK age [these folks are still on the earth, in this context, and He's returning there [at that point] as an ALREADY-WED "Bridegroom" [these WISE and UNWISE are NOT "the BRIDE/WIFE [SINGULAR]"--He's not coming to MARRY them, though the WISE of them [i.e. 'saved persons'] WILL ENTER the earthly MK age with [accompanying] Him).
See the enlarged verses ^ ... where it is saying what it does about the "EVIL servant"... and what "he shall say in his heart" and how they will be "cut him asunder" and "appoint his portion with the hypocrites / unbelievers"... "weeping and gnashing of teeth" (i.e. NOT be ENTERING the MK age... like the "BLESSED" and the "RIGHTEOUS" will do, at that point in time [recall, this is not the "Rapture" point in time being spoken of, but their entrance into the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom (or not entering)]).
These passages state, "if the goodman of the house had known what hour [or, in what watch] the thief would come, he would have watched, and not suffered his house to be broken up [/through]." Not ALL will have that negative experience. SOME will have obeyed the imperative / command to "watch and be ready" (again, this is not a "Rapture" passage). THOSE (at the end of the trib [CONTEXT]) who will have done so ['watch and be ready'] will be "BLESSED" [i.e. ENTER the earthly MK age] (not be "broken up / broken through," see
).Some will heed God's word (just as in Noah's day), and others will not (just as in Noah's day).
[this CONTEXT is "His Second Coming TO THE EARTH Rev19/Armageddon (NOT "our Rapture")--not everyone will have heeded God's Word--not everyone will come to the end being the "BLESSED" / the "RIGHTEOUS" and enter the earthly MK age (the MEAL [G347]) to enjoy and experience it. No. Some will disregard His word. And some will "believe the LIE/the FALSE/the pseudei"... and all of this FOLLOWS "our Rapture," which was way back BEFORE the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" falls upon the earth... and we can see the 24 elders saying "hast redeemed US out-from..." way back at Rev5:9... BEFORE the first SEAL is opened (and Rev1:1 [comp.1:19c / 4:1 / (7:3)] says that time period (that ASPECT of the DOTL time period, the "IN THE NIGHT" aspect [7-yrs]) must "come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"... NOT transpire over some 2000 years, as the Historicist has it
]This is what Scripture itself informs us about how things will go down. In more than one place.
I've endeavored to point them out in past posts.