The Rapture Thief Robs Jesuit Futurism Of The 7 Years Of Tribulation

[Phoneman-777]

FYI Jesus is not surprising those who are waiting and occupying til HE comes LOl

Y'know, if I believed that ridiculous idea that Jesus is coming back "two times" as a thief in the night, and somebody challenged me to explain how that could be when the entire world is going to be counting down 7 years from when Jesus sneaked into town and sneaked out with the saints to the moment when He returns...and I was unable to defend such nonsense, I'd have serious doubts about what I believe...why not give up Jesuit Futurism and consider Protestant Historicism?

There is no "7 years of tribulation" because Daniel 7 is a numerically specific time prophecy that is 490 years long with NO gaps.

Jesus cannot possibly come back "twice" as a thief - all will be counting down to the split second of his return.

When He comes as a thief, it'll look like a nuke holocaust - no 7 more years of anything, let alone tribulation.

The Second Coming and the rising saints happen on the same day, as Paul plainly says in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 KJV, which passage plainly says that as Jesus died and God brought Him forth from the tomb in resurrection, so God will bring forth the saints from the tomb in a resurrection, and this will happen when the Lord descends, gives a shout, the voice, and the trumpet sounds, at which time God brings forth from the tomb the dead saints, followed by the living saints to meet the Lord and to ever be with Him...words that we are to comfort each other at funerals, not ridiculous ideas about dearly departed Uncle Bob walking the streets of gold.

 

[Phoneman-777]

LOL who ever said I was the only one? You been sit-in on the wrong gumbo man. Jesus is the resurrection and the Life. You think i'm trying to win a debate ? Hahahahhaha rotfl LOL that's funny. IF you are saying I am losing a debate, and it is you saying it ? hahahahahah Ok.

FYI,
The Rapture Thief Robs Jesuit Futurism Of The 7 Years Of Tribulation

Guess what !!!!! you have not brought this since WE have been quoting Bible
what happen to your narrative ?

Why you yelling, bro? Amplitude is no substitute for evidence. You've obviously not read through the OP, so I'll recap for you how Jesus, the "rapture thief" robs you Jesuit Futurists of the ridiculous idea of a future 7 year tribulation period:,

1) You Jesuit Futurists claim when Jesus comes back as a thief, the "7 years of tribulation" begin.
2) Peter says when the Lord comes as a thief, the entire world is going to make WWII Hiroshima and Nagasaki look like a cover shot for Better Homes and Gardens, in which there won't be 7 more years of ANYTHING, let alone a tribulation.
3) Jesuit can't come back "TWO TIMES" as a thief because all will be counting down 7 years to the moment.

You're welcome.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Sorry but I am not taking the bait. Your a Preterist and you are just as quilty as the SDA of the same kind of Blaspheme.

LOL SDAs preach Protestant Historicism, bro, not that Jesuit "Left Behind" Futurist nonsense that millions of non-Catholics have been duped into accepting as "truth" from a Roman church that after 1500 years still can't figure out that salvation is by grace, not works, yet somehow is thought to be authoritative on such complicated topics as end times prophecy LOL

 

[PlainWord]

Sorry but I am not taking the bait. Your a Preterist and you are just as quilty as the SDA of the same kind of Blaspheme.

Christ was a Preterist too, so I will wear that label with pride. Futurists are the ones who call Christ a liar. I gave you 9 examples where you disagree with Christ. The clear meaning of those 9 passages are a first century return. You have to twist them into saying something they don't for your despicable, heretical doctrine to work. You aren't taking the bait because you have no rebuttal to my posts. I argue with the Word of God, you argue traditions of men.

 

[massorite]

Paradise was never located in Hades. We get that impression from what Christ said to that converted malefactor. But Paradise was always in Heaven, and it is within the New Jerusalem. However Jesus anticipated being in Paradise in advance, even though He would be in Hades for three days and three nights. IOW it was an accomplished fact even though it was in the future. Jesus regarded Abraham's bosom (all the OT saints) as already being in Heaven.

No you are dead wrong about that. Christs words to the thief were "Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."
Paul tells us that Christ First Descended down into the lower parts of the earth "Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things."
Christ told the thief that he would be with Christ that very same day in Paradise and Paul tells us that Christ first Descended down to the lower parts of the earth. So here is the proof that Paradise is actual located in the lower parts of the earth and not in heaven. I have found that like you folks are so brain washed about this that even after quoting word for word and showing Eph. 4:9 & 10 to their face, I would ask them "So where did Christ go first when He died?" and they would still say He went straight to heaven.
If Christ said He was going to Paradise and the thief was going to be with him in Paradise that very same day that Christ died and according to Paul Christ first Descended to the lower parts of the earth in Eph. 4:9 & 10 that tells us that Paradise is located in the lower parts of the earth and He stayed there until God raised Him from Paradise 3 days later by Himself. Even at that point Christ didn't ascend until 40 days later.
So it looks to me like you are also calling both Christ and Paul a liar and not only that you are presuming to know what Christ was anticipating??? Why would Christ anticipate anything? He already knew what was going to happen before He was born. How can you just skip by that words "To Day" in Luke 23:43 ? LOL what a lame way to justify your non scriptural belief.

 

[PlainWord]

FYI Jesus is not surprising those who are waiting and occupying til HE comes LOl

Where is your scriptural support for a future THIRD COMING, because the second coming happened in the first century??

In Matthew 24:29, the sun and moon darken and the stars fall from the sky. These astral omens are very similar to the heavenly signs said to accompany the fall of Judah in the sixth century B.C. (Jeremiah 4:23-26), the fall of Egypt in the sixth century B.C. (Ezekiel 32:7-9), the fall of Babylon in the sixth century B.C. (Isaiah 13:9-13), and the fall of Edom in the sixth century B.C. (Isaiah 34:4-5). And just as various heavenly omens marked a great slaughter at the fall of Judah, Egypt, Babylon and Edom in the sixth century B.C., the same thing is expected to occur at the fall of Jerusalem and Israel at the end of the age.

Read those 4 passages of 4 OT destructions where the presence of God in His anger was there, then compare to Mat 24:29-31. If you don't think Father and Son were there in 70 AD, I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale.

 

[Phoneman-777]

No you are dead wrong about that. Christs words to the thief were "Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

Hi, you probably know commas and punctuation were not in the original Greek - scholars say the comma could come before OR after "today". Placing it before "today" causes total confusion, but placing it after "today" harmonizes the rest of Scripture. Furthermore, the word "today" in the Bible modifies the verb that follows it about 50 times, but modifies the verb that precedes it over 170 times, which means the majority use of the word "today" supports placing the comma after the word: "I say unto you today, you will be with Me in Paradise."

Paul tells us that Christ First Descended down into the lower parts of the earth "Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he als descended first into the lower parts of the earth? Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things."

This could easily refer to the grave or tomb - the figurative poetic style of Paul is well known.

Christ told the thief that he would be with Christ that very same day in Paradise and Paul tells us that Christ first Descended down to the lower parts of the earth. So here is the proof that Paradise is actual located in the lower parts of the earth and not in heaven.

Please consider what the following texts say about the location of Paradise:

• Paul in vision sees a man caught UP to the "third heaven" (1 Corinthians 12:2 KJV)
• Paul then calls that place to where he was caught UP "Paradise" (1 Corinthians 12:4 KJV)
• Jesus says the Tree of Life is in "Paradise" which is UP (Revelation 2:7 KJV)
• John says he saw the Tree of Life in the midst of the River which flows from the Throne of God which is in Paradise which is UP (Revelation 22:1-2 KJV)

Therefore, "Paradise" is where the Tree of Life is which is where God's Throne is from which the River of Life is and where the Tree of Life stands in the midst...all of these are UP, not down.

And, Christ did not go to Paradise on Friday, because on Sunday morning, He told Mary, "I have not yet ascended to My Father" Whose throne is in Paradise, right or wrong?

 

[Phoneman-777]

Where is your scriptural support for a future THIRD COMING, because the second coming happened in the first century??

In Matthew 24:29, the sun and moon darken and the stars fall from the sky. These astral omens are very similar to the heavenly signs said to accompany the fall of Judah in the sixth century B.C. (Jeremiah 4:23-26), the fall of Egypt in the sixth century B.C. (Ezekiel 32:7-9), the fall of Babylon in the sixth century B.C. (Isaiah 13:9-13), and the fall of Edom in the sixth century B.C. (Isaiah 34:4-5). And just as various heavenly omens marked a great slaughter at the fall of Judah, Egypt, Babylon and Edom in the sixth century B.C., the same thing is expected to occur at the fall of Jerusalem and Israel at the end of the age.

Read those 4 passages of 4 OT destructions where the presence of God in His anger was there, then compare to Mat 24:29-31. If you don't think Father and Son were there in 70 AD, I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale.

I'm not sure how Jesuit Preterists explain 1 Thessalonians 4:16 KJV which says Jesus' Coming is accompanied by an Earth-shattering shout, a globe shaking command of the ruler of angels, and a celestial trumpet blown by God Himself (Zechariah 9:14 KJV), which are cataclysmic events that surely would have been well documented history if they had occurred, right?

BTW, the Lisbon Earthquake of 1755, the Dark Day and Blood Moon of 1780, and the Leonid Meteor Shower of 1833 are all to this day INEXPLICABLE phenomenon which were the antitypical "Feast of Trumpets" that announced the soon to arrive antitypical "Day of Atonement" in which Christ exited the Holy Place and entered the Most Holy Place and began His final phase of intercession...after which He removes His High Priestly robes and dons His Royal Battle robes and comes gloriously and cacophonically to take His saints home.

 

[PlainWord]

I'm not sure how Jesuit Preterists explain 1 Thessalonians 4:16 KJV which says Jesus' Coming is accompanied by an Earth-shattering shout, a globe shaking command of the ruler of angels, and a celestial trumpet blown by God Himself (Zechariah 9:14 KJV), which are cataclysmic events that surely would have been well documented history if they had occurred, right?

BTW, the Lisbon Earthquake of 1755, the Dark Day and Blood Moon of 1780, and the Leonid Meteor Shower of 1833 are all to this day INEXPLICABLE phenomenon which were the antitypical "Feast of Trumpets" that announced the soon to arrive antitypical "Day of Atonement" in which Christ exited the Holy Place and entered the Most Holy Place and began His final phase of intercession...after which He removes His High Priestly robes and dons His Royal Battle robes and comes gloriously and cacophonically to take His saints home.

I'm not sure how Jesuit Preterists

I am not a Jesuit, nor I am Catholic, never have been. Apology accepted in advance.

I'm not sure how Jesuit Preterists explain 1 Thessalonians 4:16 KJV which says Jesus' Coming is accompanied by an Earth-shattering shout, a globe shaking command of the ruler of angels, and a celestial trumpet blown by God Himself (Zechariah 9:14 KJV), which are cataclysmic events that surely would have been well documented history if they had occurred, right?

You seem to be adding text to the passage in question.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

Where do you see "earth shattering" shout? Where do you find "a globe shaking command?" Where do you find God blowing the trumpet Himself?

The Lord descending from heaven with a shout, while rare is not without earlier precedence. In Isaiah 42, we see that the Lord did the same thing against the Babylonians in support of restoring Israel to it's land.

Isaiah 42:13 The Lord shall go forth like a mighty man; He shall stir up His zeal like a man of war. He shall cry out, yes, shout aloud; He shall prevail against His enemies.

Similarly, the blowing of the Lord's trumpet is not unprecedented. In Isa 27, we see the prophet discussing the defeat of the Assyrians. Here also a great trumpet is blown.

Isaiah 27:13
So it shall be in that day: The great trumpet will be blown; They will come, who are about to perish in the land of Assyria, And they who are outcasts in the land of Egypt, And shall worship the Lord in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

Far from your interpretations of the 1 Thes 16 passage, it was not cataclysmic. Cataclysmic language is almost always used to describe divine judgment. Nearly identical language is found at the fall of Judah in the sixth century B.C. (Jeremiah 4:23-26), the fall of Egypt in the sixth century B.C. (Ezekiel 32:7-9), the fall of Babylon in the sixth century B.C. (Isaiah 13:9-13), and the fall of Edom in the sixth century B.C. (Isaiah 34:4-5). And just as various heavenly omens marked a great slaughter at the fall of Judah, Egypt, Babylon and Edom in the sixth century B.C., the same thing is expected to occur at the fall of Jerusalem and Israel at the end of the age. I suggest you go read these passages and see for yourself the similarities.

The futurists views of the SDA is just as bad, and wrong, as it is with most evangelicals.

 

[Absolutely]

Hey CS1! Peter says after Jesus comes as a thief in the night ("rapture"), the Earth is pretty much gonna look like someone detonated a couple bazillion nukes. God's going to protect us during the tribulation as He's both promised and demonstrated His ability to do so. Well, since the "context" is the actions of "left behind" heathens, its an apt description of what might happen in the Jesuit Futurist fantasy of a "seven year tribulation". Are you saying Jesus comes TWO TIMES as a thief? Please tell me you are not.
Negatory. The saints are going to be protected through the tribulation, just like Noah in the Ark, Israel in Goshen, Daniel in the Lion's Den, the Hebrews in the Furnace (I could keep going...) For someone who constantly reminds people of the "context", you've dropped the ball here, brother The context of "wherefore, comfort one another with these words" has to do with verse 13 regarding the bereaved, heartbroken Thessalonian saints whose loved ones have "fallen asleep" - it's not advice on how the saints are to cope when we go through the tribulation because such advice is unnecessary...we are promised that we'll only behold the terror, not suffer it. Paul is telling the bereaved Thessalonians to take comfort in the promise of the Resurrection of their loved ones (so, why do so many preachers comfort the bereaved at funerals with vain words like "Oh, he's walking the streets of gold..she's singing in the angelic choir..."?) Is not Psalm 91 an apocalyptic Psalm depicting the tribulation and does it not promise that we will be kept from the terror? Does not Matthew 24 speak of the same things the Psalmist here does like "pestilence" and "terror" and "arrows" (warfare) and "destruction" and "plagues" (like the "Seven Last Plagues") and 'deliverance" and the "reward of the wicked" which is, of course, at the end? The promise is that we will only behold the tribulation, not suffer it. Besides, Jesus prayed the opposite of what you teach: "I pray not that Thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that Thou shouldest keep them from the evil" just like He kept Noah, Israel in Goshen, Israel in the Red Sea, Daniel, the Three Hebrews, Elisha in Dothan, the disciples on the raging Galilean Sea, etc., etc.

QUOTE ""God's going to protect us during the tribulation as He's both promised and demonstrated His ability to do so. Well,""

NO he is not.
It says the ac kills all refusing the mark.

All the planet takes the mark or dies.
Even the 144k Jews are either killed or raptured in rev 14 mid trib or later.
There are no saints or jewish believers left by the end of the gt.

Jesus told the 12 "not one hair of your head shall be harmed"

All but John and Judas were murdered by the devil.

Millions martyred by the ac.
Not any protected.

No such thing as a postrib rapture.

 

[Phoneman-777]

I am not a Jesuit, nor I am Catholic, never have been. Apology accepted in advance.

I don't mean you are a Jesuit - It's called Jesuit Preterism because the idea traces its origin to 16th a century Jesuit priest...of course, you'll say "It's in the Bible" but I can show where this is not the case.

You seem to be adding text to the passage in question.
Where do you see "earth shattering" shout? Where do you find "a globe shaking command?" Where do you find God blowing the trumpet Himself? The Lord descending from heaven with a shout, while rare is not without earlier precedence.

It should be readily apparent to anyone who interprets the Bible consistently that as the light waves generated by God's glory are unfathomably powerful enough to sink islands, crumble mountains, and destroy sinners by its mere presence, so too the soundwaves generated by God's shout, voice, and trumpet are equally powerful to shake the Earth to pieces, according to Jeremiah 25, Isaiah 24, and 2 Thessalonians chapter 2. None of this has happened yet.

In Isaiah 42, we see that the Lord did the same thing against the Babylonians in support of restoring Israel to it's land. Isaiah 42:13 The Lord shall go forth like a mighty man; He shall stir up His zeal like a man of war. He shall cry out, yes, shout aloud; He shall prevail against His enemies.

Isaiah is known as the "Gospel Prophet" because he wrote so much about Jesus. Chapter 42 is a Messianic prophecy dealing with the coming of Jesus first as a Lamb and then as a King riding "on a White Horse" as described in Revelation - it's not limited to just the Assyrian conflict. Where is the text which fulfills this prophecy? Or, what historic event can we point to?

Similarly, the blowing of the Lord's trumpet is not unprecedented. In Isa 27, we see the prophet discussing the defeat of the Assyrians. Here also a great trumpet is blown. Isaiah 27:13
So it shall be in that day: The great trumpet will be blown; They will come, who are about to perish in the land of Assyria, And they who are outcasts in the land of Egypt, And shall worship the Lord in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

Back up one verse to the last part of chapter 26 and what do you see? You see that trumpet of chapter 27 being blown in connection with God punishing the whole Earth, right or wrong? You can't use a verse that clearly refers to the cataclysmic, apocalyptic "trump of God" at the end of time and make it some lesser trumpet blown by some Israelite in history, and if you're going to make God the one Who blows it, fine, but again, what Bible verse or what historic event does this point to?

Far from your interpretations of the 1 Thes 16 passage, it was not cataclysmic.

There's a reason why 1 Thessalonians chapter 4:16 KJV is called the "loudest verse in all the Bible", but if you're going to argue it already happened and He hardly kicked up any dust, I'll respect your choice to do so.

Cataclysmic language is almost always used to describe divine judgment. Nearly identical language is found at the fall of Judah in the sixth century B.C. (Jeremiah 4:23-26), the fall of Egypt in the sixth century B.C. (Ezekiel 32:7-9), the fall of Babylon in the sixth century B.C. (Isaiah 13:9-13), and the fall of Edom in the sixth century B.C. (Isaiah 34:4-5). And just as various heavenly omens marked a great slaughter at the fall of Judah, Egypt, Babylon and Edom in the sixth century B.C., the same thing is expected to occur at the fall of Jerusalem and Israel at the end of the age. I suggest you go read these passages and see for yourself the similarities.

You mean the kind of cataclysmic language that says when Jesus comes every sinner is going to drop dead in their tracks all over the world, or that all the islands will flee, the mountains shall crumble, the Earth will reel to and fro like a drunkard, or that the atmosphere, Earth, and the works therein are going to burn up when at the Day of the Lord? Yes, I would agree with you that these Judgments are flanked with catastrophic events at the coming of Jesus, which again, is prophecy not yet fulfilled.

The futurists views of the SDA is just as bad, and wrong, as it is with most evangelicals.[/QUOTE]

 

[PlainWord]

I don't mean you are a Jesuit - It's called Jesuit Preterism because the idea traces its origin to 16th a century Jesuit priest...of course, you'll say "It's in the Bible" but I can show where this is not the case.
It should be readily apparent to anyone who interprets the Bible consistently that as the light waves generated by God's glory are unfathomably powerful enough to sink islands, crumble mountains, and destroy sinners by its mere presence, so too the soundwaves generated by God's shout, voice, and trumpet are equally powerful to shake the Earth to pieces, according to Jeremiah 25, Isaiah 24, and 2 Thessalonians chapter 2. None of this has happened yet.
Isaiah is known as the "Gospel Prophet" because he wrote so much about Jesus. Chapter 42 is a Messianic prophecy dealing with the coming of Jesus first as a Lamb and then as a King riding "on a White Horse" as described in Revelation - it's not limited to just the Assyrian conflict. Where is the text which fulfills this prophecy? Or, what historic event can we point to?
Back up one verse to the last part of chapter 26 and what do you see? You see that trumpet of chapter 27 being blown in connection with God punishing the whole Earth, right or wrong? You can't use a verse that clearly refers to the cataclysmic, apocalyptic "trump of God" at the end of time and make it some lesser trumpet blown by some Israelite in history, and if you're going to make God the one Who blows it, fine, but again, what Bible verse or what historic event does this point to?
There's a reason why 1 Thessalonians chapter 4:16 KJV is called the "loudest verse in all the Bible", but if you're going to argue it already happened and He hardly kicked up any dust, I'll respect your choice to do so.
You mean the kind of cataclysmic language that says when Jesus comes every sinner is going to drop dead in their tracks all over the world, or that all the islands will flee, the mountains shall crumble, the Earth will reel to and fro like a drunkard, or that the atmosphere, Earth, and the works therein are going to burn up when at the Day of the Lord? Yes, I would agree with you that these Judgments are flanked with catastrophic events at the coming of Jesus, which again, is prophecy not yet fulfilled.

The futurists views of the SDA is just as bad, and wrong, as it is with most evangelicals.

[/QUOTE]

I don't mean you are a Jesuit - It's called Jesuit Preterism because the idea traces its origin to 16th a century Jesuit priest...of course, you'll say "It's in the Bible" but I can show where this is not the case.

No, the idea traces way back before the 16th century. Your information is false. Both Eusebius and Ignatius from the 3rd and 1st century stated that the tribulation of Mat 24 occurred to the wicked Jerusalem during their war with Rome.

It should be readily apparent to anyone who interprets the Bible consistently that as the light waves generated by God's glory are unfathomably powerful enough to sink islands, crumble mountains, and destroy sinners by its mere presence, so too the soundwaves generated by God's shout, voice, and trumpet are equally powerful to shake the Earth to pieces, according to Jeremiah 25, Isaiah 24, and 2 Thessalonians chapter 2. None of this has happened yet.

This is why God rides the clouds of heaven, the glory cloud so that those things don't happen. The passages you cite, Jer 25, dealt with the fall of Judah to Babylon. Guess what, the planet is still here. You need to recognize prophetic apocalyptic language and stop thinking the world will end every time you see it.

The fall of Judah in the sixth century B.C. (Jeremiah 4:26-28) 26 I beheld, and indeed the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were broken down At the presence of the Lord, By His fierce anger. 27 For thus says the Lord: “The whole land shall be desolate;
Yet I will not make a full end. 28 For this shall the earth mourn, And the heavens above be black, Because I have spoken. I have purposed and will not relent, Nor will I turn back from it.

The planet is still here!!

The fall of Egypt in the sixth century B.C. (Ezekiel 32:7) When I put out your light, I will cover the heavens, and make its stars dark;
I will cover the sun with a cloud, And the moon shall not give her light.

The planet is still here!!

The fall of Babylon in the sixth century B.C. (Isaiah 13:9-10) 9 Behold, the day of the Lord comes, Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, To lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it. 10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth, And the moon will not cause its light to shine.

The planet is still here!!

The fall of Edom in the sixth century B.C. (Isaiah 34:4-5) All the host of heaven shall be dissolved, And the heavens shall be rolled up like a scroll; All their host shall fall down As the leaf falls from the vine, And as fruit falling from a fig tree. 5 “For My sword shall be bathed in heaven; Indeed it shall come down on Edom, And on the people of My curse, for judgment.

The planet is still here!!

Since you are ignorant about these 4 past judgments it's no wonder you and the rest of our futurists brothers think the world is ending in Mat 24 when it was just Israel falling in 70 AD like it did in the 6th century BC.

 

[Phoneman-777]

QUOTE ""God's going to protect us during the tribulation as He's both promised and demonstrated His ability to do so. Well,"" NO he is not. It says the ac kills all refusing the mark.All the planet takes the mark or dies.

Hi, Absolutely, it merely says that Antichrist is going to issue a death decree, but no mention of the Antichrist acting on this decree. Moreover, we have Biblical examples and promises that show God is NOT going to allow His people to be killed when this decree goes forth, for that event triggers the closing of the door of probation and the Seven Last Plagues begin to fall, with the Seventh plague as being the Second Coming of Christ.

Even the 144k Jews are either killed or raptured in rev 14 mid trib or later. There are no saints or jewish believers left by the end of the gt.

The "rapture" doesn't take place until Jesus comes in the clouds, according to 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 KJV

Jesus told the 12 "not one hair of your head shall be harmed" All but John and Judas were murdered by the devil. Millions martyred by the ac. Not any protected.

Some will be called to die a martyr's death...so be it. But, when that universal death decree goes forth and the world has made up its mind to be just or unjust, they'll be no point in anyone dying a martyr's death anymore. All that will remain is the 7 Last Plagues.

No such thing as a postrib rapture.

Don't be among those that Freemason Albert Pike said would be "disillusioned with Christianity" because they expected to be "raptured" before the you know what hits the fan, but are found standing in the streets neck deep in it while shouting to God demanding to know why their Heavenly Thief fell asleep at the wheel of the getaway car.

 

[Phoneman-777]

No, the idea traces way back before the 16th century. Your information is false. Both Eusebius and Ignatius from the 3rd and 1st century stated that the tribulation of Mat 24 occurred to the wicked Jerusalem during their war with Rome.

Of course Matthew 24 in part pertains to 1st century Jerusalem - how does that prove all those cataclysmic events have come to pass?

This is why God rides the clouds of heaven, the glory cloud so that those things don't happen. The passages you cite, Jer 25, dealt with the fall of Judah to Babylon. Guess what, the planet is still here. You need to recognize prophetic apocalyptic language and stop thinking the world will end every time you see it.

No, bro, go back and read. Jeremiah clearly says the "slain of the Lord in that day shall be from one end of the Earth even to the other end of the Earth". Again, it hasn't happened yet but will when Jesus comes the Second Time in destructive, brilliant glory and cacophony of sound.

The fall of Judah in the sixth century B.C. (Jeremiah 4:26-28) 26 I beheld, and indeed the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were broken down At the presence of the Lord, By His fierce anger. 27 For thus says the Lord: “The whole land shall be desolate;
Yet I will not make a full end. 28 For this shall the earth mourn, And the heavens above be black, Because I have spoken. I have purposed and will not relent, Nor will I turn back from it. The planet is still here!!

Yep, that's one of those verses that I told you was still future. All that stuff Jeremiah predicted about islands sinking, cities breaking down, mankind disappearing off the face of the Earth ain't happened yet.

The fall of Egypt in the sixth century B.C. (Ezekiel 32:7) When I put out your light, I will cover the heavens, and make its stars dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, And the moon shall not give her light. The planet is still here!!

We can't make a cloudy day and night equal to planetary destruction.

The fall of Babylon in the sixth century B.C. (Isaiah 13:9-10) 9 Behold, the day of the Lord comes, Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, To lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it. 10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth, And the moon will not cause its light to shine. The planet is still here!!

Sounds like another overcast day to me.

The fall of Edom in the sixth century B.C. (Isaiah 34:4-5) All the host of heaven shall be dissolved, And the heavens shall be rolled up like a scroll; All their host shall fall down As the leaf falls from the vine, And as fruit falling from a fig tree. 5 “For My sword shall be bathed in heaven; Indeed it shall come down on Edom, And on the people of My curse, for judgment. The planet is still here!!

Once again, you missed previous verses - 1 and 2 - which establish the context of this passage as speaking of the end times Judgment of the entire world (which hasn't happened yet), not just pertaining to Babylon.

Since you are ignorant about these 4 past judgments it's no wonder you and the rest of our futurists brothers think the world is ending in Mat 24 when it was just Israel falling in 70 AD like it did in the 6th century BC.

Hopefully, you are now enlightened that we can't take every apocalyptic passage of Scripture and make them toothless tigers so that we can hide them in obscure annals of history...the Judgments have yet to fall upon Earth, but will soon come as a fulfillment of future prophetic prediction upon the "soul of every one that doeth evil".

 

[PlainWord]

Of course Matthew 24 in part pertains to 1st century Jerusalem - how does that prove all those cataclysmic events have come to pass?
No, bro, go back and read. Jeremiah clearly says the "slain of the Lord in that day shall be from one end of the Earth even to the other end of the Earth". Again, it hasn't happened yet but will when Jesus comes the Second Time in destructive, brilliant glory and cacophony of sound.
Yep, that's one of those verses that I told you was still future. All that stuff Jeremiah predicted about islands sinking, cities breaking down, mankind disappearing off the face of the Earth ain't happened yet.
We can't make a cloudy day and night equal to planetary destruction.
Sounds like another overcast day to me.
Once again, you missed previous verses - 1 and 2 - which establish the context of this passage as speaking of the end times Judgment of the entire world (which hasn't happened yet), not just pertaining to Babylon.
Hopefully, you are now enlightened that we can't take every apocalyptic passage of Scripture and make them toothless tigers so that we can hide them in obscure annals of history...the Judgments have yet to fall upon Earth, but will soon come as a fulfillment of future prophetic prediction upon the "soul of every one that doeth evil".

Did you even read the four passages I cited???? NONE OF THEM ARE FUTURE> ALL OF THEM TOOK PLACE IN THE 6th CENTURY BC. Look at the context. I will cut and paste the context of these passages for you since you don't want to open your Bible to read these passages so you can pick up the object of God's wrath. The reason the lights in the sky go dark is precisely because of the glory and brightness of God because He must ride on His glory cloud which is extremely dark shutting out all the lights in the sky.

Jer 4: “If you will return, O Israel...You men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem, Lest My fury come forth like fire,

Ezek 32: Son of man, take up a lamentation for Pharaoh king of Egypt, and say to him...

Isa 13: The burden against Babylon which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw...

Isa 34:
“For My sword shall be bathed in heaven; Indeed it shall come down on Edom,

What, do you think these OT prophets had nothing to say to the people of their day about to get the judgments they wrote about? You think all of their warnings were for us?? These guys had enough on their plate to worry about a world 2700 years into their future.

Oh, BTW, every word of Mat 24 happened in the first century.

 

[CS1]

One problem you, and all futurists have besides total ignorance of history contained in the Bible and from secular sources, is you have no concept of audience integrity. You think because Peter spoke of a finite event happening to them in the moment, that this applies to all Christians throughout time. There was only one time when the Holy Spirit was poured out all at once upon the church. It happened on one specific day to one group of people who were in Jerusalem at Pentecost. This is why Christ told them all to stay. This day, was the day Joel was speaking about. He was NOT speaking about our daily influences we receive from the Lord over a 2,000 year period of time. You forget what Joel says which Peter echoes, "it shall come to pass in the last days." "Last days" were specific days. They applied to one and only one generation. "Last days do not last 2,000 years. We are talking roughly 727,000 days and counting as last days for your deal to work. We are talking roughly 100 additional generations. This view weakens the moment they were experiencing. This view does not pass the smell test, sorry. I get it that you need it to mean this or your deal dies. But you are only propping up traditions of men and not allowing the Word to inform your views.

Futurists rob the comfort and promises Paul gave the Thessalonians who were enduring tremendous persecution and you take those promises for yourself. This is another example of loss of audience integrity. You take all the examples of Christ telling His disciples what to expect in their near future and kick these things out 2,000 years without any support or justification - another example of breach of your audience integrity. You ignore the harsh warnings Christ had for the scribes and Pharisees who were about to kill Him in Mat 23 and instead think Christ is angry at some future generation to us? What did our generation, or the next do that would be worse than killing the Son of God, His disciples and followers??? You have no answer for this thus this is another example of your loss of audience integrity.

Your side has set dates over 200 times since Darby, all have failed which weakens the Body and discredits our faith in front of the world. Your side with your movies about the rapture, antichrist, etc are jokes. Christ said clearly over and over that He was to return to His generation, but you cannot accept that because you have your traditions of men which you prefer over what Christ promised, all because you wish to escape death.

I could go on and on and on. Futurists twist and contort scripture like a bowl of noodles all because you want to have your fly away doctrine which flies in the face of Heb 9:27 which provides no exceptions to the rule.

first, don't label people tiles they are not. You wannabe theologians using and violating Greek verbs and such to make yourself seem wise is most taxing. If you can read you would have seen Peter was not the only person quoted.

You should learn what authorial intent is before you try to correct and use "audience integrity."

Context of: the sentence, verse, paragraph, chapter, Book, and Whole bible.

Authorial intent :
who was the writer writing to?
What was the time frame it was written in?
How did they apply it then?
and how do we apply it today?

IF you knew your Bible then you should have known the "Olivet Discourse" which starts after Chapter 23.
it here in chapter 24 & 25 where Jesus answer three questions

Matthew 24: 3

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us,:

1. when shall these things be?
2. and what shall be the sign of thy coming,
3. and of the end of the world?

Jesus told them not dates but sign as to when the temple would be destroyed " this Generation" 38 years approx. the temple was destroyed before the official next generation which 40 years. Jesus said this about 32 AD from what we see in history.

What shall be the signs of thy coming? After Jesus goes into great warning to " BE NOT DECEIVED" He gives signs to HIS coming.

Matthew 24;27
For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Then Jesus says to learn the parable of the fig. Jesus is teaching them not only what they will endure but what will be coming and it is clear it has not ALL happened yet.

We know that the temple would be destroyed. WE know Rome would enter the temple and defile it. We know the Jews fled to the mountains in Petra and other places like Cappadocia which I personally walked in the carved out caves in the mountains there. Where Paul preached. Yet are you suggesting there is no prophetic relevance IN Matthew 24- 25?

You can disagree about the rapture but the return of the Lord is Soon that has never been an issue in normal Christianity.

You self-proclaimed theologians, who think they hold the keys to Biblical history and narratives; create words to attack those who you disagree with Like "audience integrity." What a Joke.

After you do some more reading in your Bible come back Ok. While you are looking at Google Find the Hermeneutical term " Authorial intent" and use in getting an application of God's word after you pray.

LOL

 

[CS1]

Did you even read the four passages I cited???? NONE OF THEM ARE FUTURE> ALL OF THEM TOOK PLACE IN THE 6th CENTURY BC. Look at the context. I will cut and paste the context of these passages for you since you don't want to open your Bible to read these passages so you can pick up the object of God's wrath. The reason the lights in the sky go dark is precisely because of the glory and brightness of God because He must ride on His glory cloud which is extremely dark shutting out all the lights in the sky.

Jer 4: “If you will return, O Israel...You men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem, Lest My fury come forth like fire,

Ezek 32: Son of man, take up a lamentation for Pharaoh king of Egypt, and say to him...

Isa 13: The burden against Babylon which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw...

Isa 34:
“For My sword shall be bathed in heaven; Indeed it shall come down on Edom,

What, do you think these OT prophets had nothing to say to the people of their day about to get the judgments they wrote about? You think all of their warnings were for us?? These guys had enough on their plate to worry about a world 2700 years into their future.

Oh, BTW, every word of Mat 24 happened in the first century.

wow, more Amazing Facts Read Matthew 24:3 again guy. Remember Truth is a higher form than facts.

 

[Bbrdrd]

No, the idea traces way back before the 16th century. Your information is false. Both Eusebius and Ignatius from the 3rd and 1st century stated that the tribulation of Mat 24 occurred to the wicked Jerusalem during their war with Rome.



This is why God rides the clouds of heaven, the glory cloud so that those things don't happen. The passages you cite, Jer 25, dealt with the fall of Judah to Babylon. Guess what, the planet is still here. You need to recognize prophetic apocalyptic language and stop thinking the world will end every time you see it.

The fall of Judah in the sixth century B.C. (Jeremiah 4:26-28) 26 I beheld, and indeed the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were broken down At the presence of the Lord, By His fierce anger. 27 For thus says the Lord: “The whole land shall be desolate;
Yet I will not make a full end. 28 For this shall the earth mourn, And the heavens above be black, Because I have spoken. I have purposed and will not relent, Nor will I turn back from it.

The planet is still here!!

The fall of Egypt in the sixth century B.C. (Ezekiel 32:7) When I put out your light, I will cover the heavens, and make its stars dark;
I will cover the sun with a cloud, And the moon shall not give her light.

The planet is still here!!

The fall of Babylon in the sixth century B.C. (Isaiah 13:9-10) 9 Behold, the day of the Lord comes, Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, To lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it. 10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth, And the moon will not cause its light to shine.

The planet is still here!!

The fall of Edom in the sixth century B.C. (Isaiah 34:4-5) All the host of heaven shall be dissolved, And the heavens shall be rolled up like a scroll; All their host shall fall down As the leaf falls from the vine, And as fruit falling from a fig tree. 5 “For My sword shall be bathed in heaven; Indeed it shall come down on Edom, And on the people of My curse, for judgment.

The planet is still here!!

Since you are ignorant about these 4 past judgments it's no wonder you and the rest of our futurists brothers think the world is ending in Mat 24 when it was just Israel falling in 70 AD like it did in the 6th century BC.[/QUOTE]
Something missing from this discussion with you stating they've already been fulfilled and others saying there is a future to them is that often when it comes to salvation and judgment oracles there is a double meaning in their fulfillment, one immediate future and one eschatological. Take Isaiah 7:10-16 as an example, the prophecy was given as a sign to Ahaz and the country at the time to assure them that the Lord was with them and they need not fear meaning it had to have been fulfilled within the lifetime of Ahaz. Yet this fulfilled prophecy was then fulfilled in a fuller sense with the advent of Jesus ushering in the end times. So arguing that a prophecy is fulfilled in the past does not necessarily preclude it from being fulfilled in a fuller sense eschatologically.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Did you even read the four passages I cited???? NONE OF THEM ARE FUTURE> ALL OF THEM TOOK PLACE IN THE 6th CENTURY BC. Look at the context. I will cut and paste the context of these passages for you since you don't want to open your Bible to read these passages so you can pick up the object of God's wrath. The reason the lights in the sky go dark is precisely because of the glory and brightness of God because He must ride on His glory cloud which is extremely dark shutting out all the lights in the sky.

Jer 4: “If you will return, O Israel...You men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem, Lest My fury come forth like fire,

Ezek 32: Son of man, take up a lamentation for Pharaoh king of Egypt, and say to him...

Isa 13: The burden against Babylon which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw...

Isa 34:
“For My sword shall be bathed in heaven; Indeed it shall come down on Edom,

What, do you think these OT prophets had nothing to say to the people of their day about to get the judgments they wrote about? You think all of their warnings were for us?? These guys had enough on their plate to worry about a world 2700 years into their future.

Oh, BTW, every word of Mat 24 happened in the first century.

Yes, read them all. Look, we all know the Jesuit Preterist end game: Limit OT prophecies to only historic application whereby "proving" wild events like the heavens melting and stars falling are just the prophet waxing eloquent via poetic license.

THIS REQUIRES THEOLOGICAL SKULDUGGERY, AS THE FOLLOWING
ANALYSIS OF YOUR EXAMPLE DEMONSTRATES:​

You referenced a passage in Isaiah 34 which was a prophecy of judgment against the ancient Assyrians, and verses 3-4 plainly predict that the hosts of heaven will fall and the heavens will roll up like a scroll. Your point is, "See? Clearly, the prophecy was fulfilled with the overthrow of the Assyrians, but no heavens rolled up and the stars are still there, so there's no reason to expect that the "stars falling" and the "heavens rolling up" of Revelation is any less symbolic."

However, verse 1 and 2 prove that there is still a future application of this prophecy, which is a dual prophecy, because it's not limited to merely a judgment against the Assyrians, but tells of the "indignation of the Lord...upon all nations" - a judgment against all nations which clearly has not yet come to pass!

 

[CS1]

Y'know, if I believed that ridiculous idea that Jesus is coming back "two times" as a thief in the night, and somebody challenged me to explain how that could be when the entire world is going to be counting down 7 years from when Jesus sneaked into town and sneaked out with the saints to the moment when He returns...and I was unable to defend such nonsense, I'd have serious doubts about what I believe...why not give up Jesuit Futurism and consider Protestant Historicism?

There is no "7 years of tribulation" because Daniel 7 is a numerically specific time prophecy that is 490 years long with NO gaps.

Jesus cannot possibly come back "twice" as a thief - all will be counting down to the split second of his return.

When He comes as a thief, it'll look like a nuke holocaust - no 7 more years of anything, let alone tribulation.

The Second Coming and the rising saints happen on the same day, as Paul plainly says in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 KJV, which passage plainly says that as Jesus died and God brought Him forth from the tomb in resurrection, so God will bring forth the saints from the tomb in a resurrection, and this will happen when the Lord descends, gives a shout, the voice, and the trumpet sounds, at which time God brings forth from the tomb the dead saints, followed by the living saints to meet the Lord and to ever be with Him...words that we are to comfort each other at funerals, not ridiculous ideas about dearly departed Uncle Bob walking the streets of gold.

coming back two time ? that red herring will not work guy. Your idea of Jesus sneaking is foolish at best and unbiblical to say the least.

Matthew 24:27
For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matthew 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 24:31
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1Thess 4:16

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1cor 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

WHERE DO YOU GET THE IDEA Jesus is sneaking Into town?
There is a SHOUT! a Trumpet of God
Jesus said that Paul said that John Said that.

Your sadly mistaken IF you think Jesus is sneaking into town. Every Eye shall see HIM. HE will Appear and HE is calling UP the saints from the fours corners of the earth Just as HE called out Lazarus. Mock, scoff all you want.

You have issue with everyone who does not think like you.

You attack : Jesuit Futurism of the RCC and those of the reformation. You use these terms created to support your opposition to what is said in the Word of God.

Just like those of the past. Many use the church fathers to make their point sound more authoritative but yet Attack the very same church fathers an credit them on other topics. You would have one believe you hold the only truth about the coming of the Lord which I might add many of those who hold to SDA have said Jesus & the law are the means of Salvation. BUT they are very subtle when they say that because they know it is going to be addressed. The only ridicules claims I have heard and foolishness is the blunt and calculated dismissal of what Jesus said in Matthews and Paul and John. Concerning the return of the Lord Jesus .

I don't even need to worry about if Jesus comes back and if I am a sinner I will just be " Annihilated" and be no more.
Poof!!!! Gone no eternal suffering as Jesus said just gone.

" words that we are to comfort each other at funerals, not ridiculous ideas about dearly departed Uncle Bob walking the streets of gold"

Such disrespect to the word of God. Paul lied HERE People when HE spoke in 1thess 4:13-18
I guess Jesus lied too? in John 14 :2

In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Now Jesus is just saying things to make the disciples feel good about themselves. HOW FOOLISH.