LET THE WOMAN LEARN IN SILENCE - WHAT DO YOU THINK THIS MEANS?

[Dino246]

Yes the Spirit of Christ did not curse them until they violated the letter of the law death . Rather than doing the unseen will of faith they walked by sight . . . the evil generation that seeks after lying wonders .

God did not curse the man and the woman at all. He cursed the serpent and the ground. The rest of your post is irrelevant.

 

[oyster67]

My Bible says there is neither male nor female in Christ Jesus

And that God is no respecter of persons.

Micah 6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what [is] good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

 

[SoulWeaver]

So women no long have pain in childbirth?

You're mixing spiritual status that we receive with Christ, with the law of reaping and sowing that cannot be annulled.
And, there's a thing such as Cesarean delivery. And epidural. God filled hearts with knowledge and wisdom to create these inventions. Some travail will always be there, but a lot of troubles about birth had been eased.
We can agree that nowadays men also have tractors as well to work the land? While it's still work, I'd argue that it's not equally difficult as using tools and doing it manually.
God had been good to mankind.

 

[Magenta]

Micah 6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what [is] good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

Micah 6:8

 

[Dino246]

Men also are cursed by God after the fall.

Then to Adam He (God) said,
“Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, (and not God)
and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying,
‘You shall not eat from it’;
Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you shall eat of it All the days of your life.
Cursed to labor to survive and provide four you and your family.
Not what was originally intended.

To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your labor pains;
with pain you will give birth to children.
You will want to control your husband, but he will dominate you."

that last bit has a few varied understandings.
for example one is: that you desire will be for his position (of authority)
But the part that is clear is the curse has to do with authority struggle.
much like mans and his action to disregard God in listening to his woman.
He takes Gods authority on himself, so now he get to know what he did by having his women doing it to him.

Without submission to Gods authority we are ruled rather then blessed.
That is why you have all of the bible talking about submission, because only submission and obedience to Gods authority can be blessed. Otherwise it is the opposite of being blessed, Cursed.

I think this is how we either bless or curse our relationships.
We can build the up this way or foolishly tear them down, tear each other down.

I don't know from which translation you're reading, but no translation I've seen uses the word "cursed" in reference to either the man or the woman. God said to the serpent, "Cursed are you above all cattle" (KJV) and "Cursed is the ground because of you". The word, "cursed" appears only those two times.

 

[Lion222]

The church revealed in Revelations 12 (the mother of us all) . Like Paul a bride of Christ suffered in labor pain as a surrogate womb. Paul did plant the gospel seed "Christ" in Timothy praying the Holy Spirit who give new spirit life.

Galatians 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

2 Corinthians 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

A beautiful parable is set aside that reveals the church, the bride of Christ, the chaste virgin. She is pictured on the last day. The sun and moon as temporal corruption time keepers have been made useless .

Revelation 12 King James Version (KJV) And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

Yep all to neglected stuff.
The work of apostles
The work of husbands
The presenting of a spotless and blameless bride to God for Christ.

 

[garee]

FYI the law did not come until Moses.
The curse of the law is a different curse.

We are talking about how the fall of man and sin caused God to pronounce over us Men and Women the exact opposite of a blessing.
AKA a curse.

The outward visible law comes by faith .It was revealed through Moses, not through flesh and blood. .

Same curse given by the same Holy Spirit .

Moses in parables represents the letter of the law death. Its no more Moses' law than are the words of Christ that come from the apostles. "sent ones"

Dan in parables is used to represent the unseen Spirit of judgment as those who fall backward slain in the Spirit. Being killed by the poison of false doctrines of men called a brood of vipers. Thou shall not surely die. Creating doubt a wonderment.

In that way Dan and Moses work together as one labor of God's love or called a work of Christ' faith

Genesis 49:16 Dan shall judge his people, as one of the tribes of Israel.Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward.

The tribe of Dan in the book of Revelation is not part of the description of bride. The spirit of judgment is shown when Judas a false apostle fell backward when the power words ."I am He" moved him to fall. Judas will not enter the new order, and Moses used to represent the letter of the law will not enter the propmised land either.

The letter of the law (death) will not rise up and condemn through corruption another entire creation.

 

[Dino246]

The church revealed in Revelations 12 (the mother of us all) . Like Paul a bride of Christ suffered in labor pain as a surrogate womb. Paul did plant the gospel seed "Christ" in Timothy praying the Holy Spirit who give new spirit life.

Galatians 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

2 Corinthians 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

A beautiful parable is set aside that reveals the church, the bride of Christ, the chaste virgin. She is pictured on the last day. The sun and moon as temporal corruption time keepers have been made useless .

Revelation 12 King James Version (KJV) And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

In Genesis 3:16, God is addressing literal childbirth and literal pain.

 

[Godsgirl83]

As long as we can ALL agree that boys rule and girls drool we can move on!

I REALLY wanted to put "disagree" to that comment BUT since saying "disagree" would mean an unnecessary, little, ugly, red X, I had to leave my other reaction, the laughing face.
But come on now, we all know the CORRECT saying is GIRLS RULE and boys drool .....
(or at least that's how I remember it being said on the playground )
(thanks for the unexpected laugh that post caused today PennEd )

 

[Scribe]

But it does not say "women were not to be allowed to preach publicly in the churches" in verse 12 so how could it be clear? You would have to be told by someone that is what Paul intended to say. But did he?

To interpret 2 Tim 2 it is very helpful to read 1 Pet 3. Very Helpful is an understatement.

1 Peter 3:1-6 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; 2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear. 3Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; 4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. 5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands: 6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

Now compare with 2 Tim 2 and notice the strikingly similar wording. As if Peter was quoting Paul.

1 Tim 2:9-12 9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; 10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. 11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

I believe that using the rule of theological context in interpretation we have a strong case to say that Paul was talking about the same thing that Peter was talking about especially when Paul does mention the Adam and Eve scenarios confirming that this is about a wife toward her husband. It has nothing to do with banning women from preaching. AND IT IS NOT CLEAR AT ALL THAT IS WHAT PAUL MEANT. That is eisegesis, (reading into the text what is not there) rather than exegesis (understanding the authors intended meaning)

It is IMPOSSIBLE that Paul's authorial intent was to ban women from PULPIT ministry Because the PULPIT had not been invented yet and this would not have entered his mind. It would have been IMPOSSIBLE for his readers to have had that concept either. eisegesis has caused people to put words in Paul's mouth (like publically in the church, pulpit, preach the Bible) and ideas in his head that he did not write and could not have known to write (pulpit, Sunday School, etc) We have no authority to apply modern church assembly concepts to what was happening at the church of Ephesus at the time of Paul.

Peter was more verbose but it is obvious they were talking about the same things. The wife toward the husband, the attitude of the woman toward the man (Paul's use of Adam and Even confirm that he was talking about that relationship not pulpit preaching) It is not godly for the woman to Correct/Teach, or rule over the man and especially in public is it shameful to see that happen. It is embarrassing to the man for the woman to Teach/correct/scold him. She should be respectful, give him honor, hold her peace, if she is really concerned about something, ask him at home not in public, causing contention, and making a scene as it were. Especially in the church if there are other believers around who might side with her opinion over the husbands and cause divisions. 1 Cor 14 is another example telling them to be silent and ask their husbands their questions at home because they were being out of order asking in a disruptive way. He also told those who spoke in tongues (male and female) to be silent if there were no interpreter, and he told those who prophesied (male or female) to be silent in the church if someone else had a word to share and take turns. The phrase be silent has been taken beyond what Paul intended and strange doctrines banning women from preaching the word of God We know it is Gods plan to empower women to prophesy (that is using their words) They are called to proclaim the Word of God in the church, out of the church, on top of the church, under the church, and everywhere else.
And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

Now here is another foot note to the above: Peter said...
even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood,
Peter had read a letter from Paul to the church he was writing to and reminded them of what Paul had said in his letter. This is why I believe that Peter is quoting Paul in 1 Pet 3 about the wife submitting to her husband. This is why his words are so close to Pauls in 2 Tim 2. If this is true and the above verse in bold is strong evidence that it is, then we can see from Peter's explanation in 1 Pet 3 (of which he is elaborating on what Paul wrote, and if so Peter is more verbose and it seems to be clear from Peter's understanding of what Paul was teaching that it was not about Teaching the Bible in a church setting. But you be the judge.

 

[garee]

Yep all to neglected stuff.
The work of apostles
The work of husbands
The presenting of a spotless and blameless bride to God for Christ.

Yes even though they did murmur Christ remained Faithfull working by faith in them putting his word as thoughts on their tongue Just like on the tongue of Balaam's Ass . It worked to stop the madness of that false apostle. God is not served by human hands.

Philippians 2:12-14 King James Version (KJV) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:. . . (here I am what about me? )

 

[Lion222]

I don't know from which translation you're reading, but no translation I've seen uses the word "cursed" in reference to either the man or the woman. God said to the serpent, "Cursed are you above all cattle" (KJV) and "Cursed is the ground because of you". The word, "cursed" appears only those two times.

Lets not get off topic anymore.
If we want to discuss what is and is not a curse or a blessing we can start a post in BDF

 

[oyster67]

I REALLY wanted to put "disagree" to that comment BUT since saying "disagree" would mean an unnecessary, little, ugly, red X, I had to leave my other reaction, the laughing face.
But come on now, we all know the CORRECT saying is GIRLS RULE and boys drool .....
(or at least that's how I remember it being said on the playground )
(thanks for the unexpected laugh that post caused today PennEd )

Come on now, my little children. Lets all have a fun time and drool together. All together now...

 

[Dino246]

Lets not get off topic anymore.
If we want to discuss what is and is not a curse or a blessing we can start a post in BDF

Fair enough.

 

[Lion222]

The outward visible law comes by faith .It was revealed through Moses, not through flesh and blood. .

Same curse given by the same Holy Spirit .

Moses in parables represents the letter of the law death. Its no more Moses' law than are the words of Christ that come from the apostles. "sent ones"

Dan in parables is used to represent the unseen Spirit of judgment as those who fall backward slain in the Spirit. Being killed by the poison of false doctrines of men called a brood of vipers. Thou shall not surely die. Creating doubt a wonderment.

In that way Dan and Moses work together as one labor of God's love or called a work of Christ' faith

Genesis 49:16 Dan shall judge his people, as one of the tribes of Israel.Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward.

The tribe of Dan in the book of Revelation is not part of the description of bride. The spirit of judgment is shown when Judas a false apostle fell backward when the power words ."I am He" moved him to fall. Judas will not enter the new order, and Moses used to represent the letter of the law will not enter the propmised land either.

People cant see what you are thinking and how you get from one idea to then next and what list of assumptions lie between the two.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_of_knowledge

 

[Lion222]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_of_knowledge

https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1200/0*qC0M4JWVSUDmotjJ.jpg

 

[Lion222]

You're mixing spiritual status that we receive with Christ, with the law of reaping and sowing that cannot be annulled.
And, there's a thing such as Cesarean delivery. And epidural. God filled hearts with knowledge and wisdom to create these inventions. Some travail will always be there, but a lot of troubles about birth had been eased.
We can agree that nowadays men also have tractors as well to work the land? While it's still work, I'd argue that it's not equally difficult as using tools and doing it manually.
God had been good to mankind.

Not me.
You are missing the fact it was a question.

 

[lenna]

So women no long have pain in childbirth?

lenna said:
even if God had cursed them, Jesus became a curse for us when he hung on the cross

therefore, we would be no longer cursed in any effect

because of the effects of sin, we die physically and all that is associated with death, disease etc, remains because of sin

let's not be silly here and ignore what the scripture states about Jesus

Jesus became a curse for us has no meaning for you?

 

[garee]

Now here is another foot note to the above: Peter said...
even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood,
Peter had read a letter from Paul to the church he was writing to and reminded them of what Paul had said in his letter. This is why I believe that Peter is quoting Paul in 1 Pet 3 about the wife submitting to her husband. This is why his words are so close to Pauls in 2 Tim 2. If this is true and the above verse in bold is strong evidence that it is, then we can see from Peter's explanation in 1 Pet 3 (of which he is elaborating on what Paul wrote, and if so Peter is more verbose and it seems to be clear from Peter's understanding of what Paul was teaching that it was not about Teaching the Bible in a church setting. But you be the judge.

A mutual submission brings the peace of God that is beyond human understanding as the unstanding of God or understanding of faith. A picture of the father and Son our husband . One God. Male and female. One wife

Again it would seem to represent the virtuous or true intimacy, The wife of Christ .She is made of of both female and male, Jew and gentile

She two working as one created lost virtue. This is when Adan refused to protect her but rather joined in. The two . . again to represent one wife divorced Israel. Which as son of Go the church literally will be one in the new heavens and earth. . .

Serving Christ. Its never the ministry of one.

Great parable in Luke 10. Both are necessary to create the virtuous ( intimate) . Mary chose the virtuous one. washing the feet. . hearing the word of the gospel. Feet a metaphor that represents those who bring the gospel.

Now it came to pass, as they went, that he entered into a certain village: and a certain woman named Martha received him into her house. And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus' feet, and heard his word. But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me. And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things: But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.Luke 10:38-42

 

[lenna]

Men also are cursed by God after the fall.

Then to Adam He (God) said,
“Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, (and not God)
and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying,
‘You shall not eat from it’;
Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you shall eat of it All the days of your life.
Cursed to labor to survive and provide four you and your family.
Not what was originally intended.

To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your labor pains;
with pain you will give birth to children.
You will want to control your husband, but he will dominate you."

that last bit has a few varied understandings.
for example one is: that you desire will be for his position (of authority)
But the part that is clear is the curse has to do with authority struggle.
much like mans and his action to disregard God in listening to his woman.
He takes Gods authority on himself, so now he get to know what he did by having his women doing it to him.

Without submission to Gods authority we are ruled rather then blessed.
That is why you have all of the bible talking about submission, because only submission and obedience to Gods authority can be blessed. Otherwise it is the opposite of being blessed, Cursed.

I think this is how we either bless or curse our relationships.
We can build the up this way or foolishly tear them down, tear each other down.

are you under the OT law?

not going down the other rabbit trails about submission etc.

just a black and white question in keeping of your desire to be under a curse for some reason