LET THE WOMAN LEARN IN SILENCE - WHAT DO YOU THINK THIS MEANS?

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oldethennew

Banned
#41
Feb 28, 2016
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#41
God works as He wills with whom He will in each and every different circumstance =
please don't try and put Him into your own 'box' of individual understanding, else,
He will make you eat dirt!!!
:):)
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#42
Jan 13, 2016
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#42
tourist said:
No, you do not throw that scripture out at all. It could be that the term "pastor' is a masculine term pertaining to men only. Maybe a 'Leader' should only be the wife of one husband. There is still that Deborah thing though being a judge being appointed by God to be the judge over the entire nation of Israel. She would be what is known as a leader.
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Deborah is not a good example of the NT Church.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#43
Jan 13, 2016
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#43
oldethennew said:
God works as He wills with whom He will in each and every different circumstance =
please don't try and put Him into your own 'box' of individual understanding, else,
He will make you eat dirt!!!
:):)
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God has given us instructions to live by and we are to follow those instructions to the NT Church. It's His word, not mine.
 
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lenna

Guest
#44
#44
John146 said:
It is obvious that she was with her husband and both of them helped Apollos see the truth. This Scripture is in no way an indication that a woman is to teach and have authority over a man in the local church. It is absurd to take this instance and make it a rule over the local church and disqualify Paul's teaching in 1 Timothy 2.
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streeange

I can actually talk, in fact discuss salvation and what it means to be a Christian with others, when my husband is NOT towering over me and demanding 'silence my darling!'

pass the popcorn please
 
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lenna

Guest
#46
#46
tourist said:
If women are not allowed to teach men then why was she teaching (with her husband) in the first place?

Perhaps God believed that she had some significant spiritual insight to offer.

Either woman cannot teach a man or she can. One exception to any steadfast rule or principal opens the door for others to emulate.

Regarding the church reference, Jesus stated that where 2 or 3 are gathered in His name He is in the midst of them. Aquila, Priscilla, and Apollos are 3, they were certainly gathered in the name of Jesus, so therefore that would constitute a church. This scripture does in fact indicate that a woman can indeed be allowed to teach and have authority over a man if the woman is lead by the Holy Spirit to do so.

As I mentioned earlier, Deborah was a judge over the entire nation of Israel. In the course of her duties she most certainly had authority over men. God appointed her to be a judge. God appoints all of those in positions of authority.

Again, what Paul did not permit is not necessarily what God does not permit.
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most women can teach most men

they can teach men that they have a brain independent of a male :eek:

I guess God musta made them that way
 
wolfwint

wolfwint

Senior Member
#47
Feb 15, 2014
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#47
tourist said:
Since I have been a member in 2014 there have been at least 20 threads on this topic.
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Yes, and nobody changed his position. :)

For me it is clear when I read the bible. Others have to explain what they read to come to their View.
 
wolfwint

wolfwint

Senior Member
#48
Feb 15, 2014
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#48
lenna said:
most women can teach most men

they can teach men that they have a brain independent of a male :eek:

I guess God musta made them that way
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Is is not the question of can ore can not.
Its the question is it Gods will ore not.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#49
Jan 13, 2016
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#49
lenna said:
streeange

I can actually talk, in fact discuss salvation and what it means to be a Christian with others, when my husband is NOT towering over me and demanding 'silence my darling!'

pass the popcorn please
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Absolutely, but what you just stated is different than being in authority over the Scriptures over a local church.
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#51
Jun 30, 2015
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#51
MyrtleTrees said:
It is clear in verse 12, that women were not to be allowed to preach publicly, in churches. But it is less clear what verse 11 means, as to the order for women to learn in silence in church. So since the Bible is not clear on that subject, I think women have to prayerfully decide that for themselves.
1 Tim 2:11-12
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
KJV
We have recently started to attend a Mennonite church in town here. I like the church a lot. I admire and enjoy how so many men are willing to preach in the meetings. This is not true in most other churches. I have chosen not to even answer Bible questions that are asked by some of the preachers there, as I'm afraid it would offend some men there or intimidate them. My own dad (now with the Lord in heaven) said he believed women should not talk at all in Bible meetings or church meetings. I also learned from a man (Jerry) that attends the Mennonite church - that he doesn't believe women should speak in church meetings. So I gather that a number of men feel that way.
I am curious to know others' opinions of why it may be that men speak so little in most other churches. What do you think? Do you think it's because in our society - culture - women are largely often overly controlling over men (or insubmissive) , such as their own husbands?
I know their men are taught to preach a lot more commonly in their youth, compared to in Christian families that attend most other churches. I like that, and can imagine that is one reason this Mennonite church has so many men who like to teach and preach.
Also, I notice in the visiting time that takes place outdoors after Sunday AM church services - that the men show a lot more enjoyment for talking together (and discussing spiritual things too with others), as compared to what I see in other churches. They aren't in a hurry to rush home. The women too - of course, enjoy visiting together, too during that time - more than I see in other churches.
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It's always a good idea to look at all the relevant Scripture verses on a subject, and not draw conclusions on one or two, especially when they are not considered within their contexts.

There is a lot of cultural context that is relevant to understanding Paul's words to Timothy. There is also a lot of biblical context to the subject of male and female roles. There is a place for respecting the practice in the local congregation, whether you agree with that particular interpretation or not. There's no need to rock the boat, but there is also no need to subscribe to an unspoken expectation; especially one where people would try to silence you with it. Many people take the plaint text out of its context, and don't want to put the effort in to research the matter to understand it thoroughly. Sadly, too often such people try to force their views on others.

In Genesis 3:16, God speaks to Eve and says, "Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you." Many people interpret this as, "It is right for men to rule over women", but that is not what it says. In fact, in many cases, men ruling over women is a fulfillment of this unfortunate consequence.

To your question specifically, men do speak in the church I attend, as do women, so perhaps it's merely a question of one's subculture.
 
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lenna

Guest
#52
#52
John146 said:
Absolutely, but what you just stated is different than being in authority over the Scriptures over a local church.
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coming round to the other view, are yah?
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#53
Dec 6, 2016
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#53
When we read Paul's letters to address the problems of different churches without learning from history what those problems were, we are not really reading the letters as Paul meant them. We need history along with scripture to understand scripture. That is why God hid the deep sea scrolls until now when we are so separated from ancient Hebrew.

In this church the women had gotten out of control and their loudness was taking over the church.

It is true that God wants the family headed by marriage to have a leader as all organizations have. God wants man to lead, but he is not to over rule. Throughout bible history women have taken over leadership when men have failed at it. The book of Judges gives one example.
 
O

oldethennew

Banned
#54
Feb 28, 2016
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#54
what a most honourable position our Creator gave to His called, elected, chosen Mother of His precious Son...
'she was His first earthly, teacher'...
it is very true that God gave His Church instruction, and we, as His children are to follow them...
the over-all-question that all of us should ask ourselves is, 'in what attitude/truth/order, do we follow THEM???
 
tourist

tourist

Senior Member
#55
Mar 13, 2014
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Tennessee
#55
lenna said:
most women can teach most men

they can teach men that they have a brain independent of a male :eek:

I guess God musta made them that way
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The Scarecrow in the Wizard of Oz didn't have a brain but he did have a modicum of wisdom.
 
tourist

tourist

Senior Member
#56
Mar 13, 2014
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#56
John146 said:
Deborah is not a good example of the NT Church.
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Like Paul, that is only your opinion and it is not relevant to whether God permits a woman to teach a man or hold positions of authority over a man. Deborah was not over a local church but rather an entire nation. She is an excellent example of God placing a woman in a position of authority over a man.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#57
Jan 13, 2016
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#57
tourist said:
Like Paul, that is only your opinion and it is not relevant to whether God permits a woman to teach a man or hold positions of authority over a man. Deborah was not over a local church but rather an entire nation. She is an excellent example of God placing a woman in a position of authority over a man.
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That's where we differ. I believe God used Paul to set up the NT Church and His teachings are to be received. These are not Paul's opinions. That's a dangerous road to travel.
 
tourist

tourist

Senior Member
#58
Mar 13, 2014
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#58
John146 said:
That's where we differ. I believe God used Paul to set up the NT Church and His teachings are to be received. These are not Paul's opinions. That's a dangerous road to travel.
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Words in the bible mean something. Paul said "I do not permit" and not 'thus says the Lord". The road is smooth in this regard that I'm traveling on.
 
B

Bbrdrd

Banned
#59
Apr 2, 2020
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#59
How about before we take on women's roles in church we argue slavery since Paul also instructed slaves to submit to their role.

If we can accept that such statements were culturally driven for the sake of the gospel, why can we not accept the same for the prohibitions on women in ministry?
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#60
Jan 13, 2016
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#60
tourist said:
Words in the bible mean something. Paul said "I do not permit" and not 'thus says the Lord". The road is smooth in this regard that I'm traveling on.
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Where in his epistles does Paul ever say, "thus saith the Lord"?
 
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