Not By Works

[EleventhHour]

I understand how you would conclude that. I have seen many small groups of Christians do extensive bible study on 1 John, as well as the gospel of John.

I think its hard for many of us not to be influenced by John since many grew up with John 3:16 in many Sunday schools.

When you take seriously what John was writing, especially in 1 John, you cannot run away from his conclusion that works, especially works involving love, are required for righeousness before Jesus.

That would be incorrect.

John does not state works of love are required for righteousness but rather that is how we should be known.

This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.

 

[Guojing]

That would be incorrect.

John does not state works of love are required for righteousness but rather that is how we should be known.

This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.

If you take one particular passage, you can of course avoid that

As I have said to him, when you read the entire 1 John, and avoid reading Paul into his letter, you cannot run away from that conclusion

 

[VCO]

I understand how you would conclude that. I have seen many small groups of Christians do extensive bible study on 1 John, as well as the gospel of John.

I think its hard for many of us not to be influenced by John since many grew up with John 3:16 in many Sunday schools.

When you take seriously what John was writing, especially in 1 John, you cannot run away from his conclusion that works, especially works involving love, are required for righeousness before Jesus.

It looks to me that you do not know what you are talking about.

AGAPE LOVE is sole the MOTIVE for deeds of AGAPE LOVE. THIS SHOULD END THE SUBJECT.

Any deed for GOD or others that does not HAVE AGAPE LOVE AS THE MOTIVATOR, (even if it is to earn part of your salvation), IS NOTHING BUT WOOD, HAY, and STUBBLE at BEST, or FILTHY RAGS at worst.


1 John 3:14-17 (NASB77)
14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death.
15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
16 We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
17 But whoever has the world's goods, and beholds his brother in need and closes his heart against him,
how does the love of God abide in him?

No I am not yelling, I do not believe in going by Face Book rules, and have never had a Face Book Account.
THE FOLLOWING IS FOR EMPHASIS ONLY.

WHAT WE ACTUALLY TEACH AND BELIEVE, is AGAPE LOVE COMES FIRST, Obedience is spawned out of that AGAPE LOVE AFTER WE HAVE BEEN SAVED.

WHEN WERE WE SAVED ? ? ?

GOD gave it as a GIFT!

2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NJB)
8 Because it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith; not by anything of your own, but by a gift from God;
9 not by anything that you have done, so that nobody can claim the credit.


WHEN DID WE RECEIVE SALVATION ? ? ?


Ephesians 1:11-14 (HCSB)
11 We have also received an inheritance in Him, predestined according to the purpose of the One who works out everything in agreement with the decision of His will,
12 so that we who had already put our hope in the Messiah might bring praise to His glory.
13 When you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and when you believed in Him, you were also sealed with the promised Holy Spirit. {Long before your first deed.}
14 He is the down payment of our inheritance, for the redemption of the possession, to the praise of His glory.

 

[Blue_Of_Lake]

I understand how you would conclude that. I have seen many small groups of Christians do extensive bible study on 1 John, as well as the gospel of John.

I think its hard for many of us not to be influenced by John since many grew up with John 3:16 in many Sunday schools.

When you take seriously what John was writing, especially in 1 John, you cannot run away from his conclusion that works, especially works involving love, are required for righeousness before Jesus.

Jesus was All About Righteousness, because He Was Righteousness. Awesome.

 

[Guojing]

It looks to me that you do not know what you are talking about.

AGAPE LOVE is sole the MOTIVE for deeds of AGAPE LOVE. THIS SHOULD END THE SUBJECT.

Any deed for GOD or others that does not HAVE AGAPE LOVE AS THE MOTIVATOR, (even if it is to earn part of your salvation), IS NOTHING BUT WOOD, HAY, and STUBBLE at BEST, or FILTHY RAGS at worst.


1 John 3:14-17 (NASB77)
14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death.
15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
16 We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
17 But whoever has the world's goods, and beholds his brother in need and closes his heart against him,
how does the love of God abide in him?

You wisely refer to Paul's letters for your salvation doctrine, which is the right thing to do.

If you just read 1 John alone, without knowing anything about Romans to Philemon, and you read about his advice on how to be "right with God", what will your conclusion be?

Let me give you some examples spread throughout all his chapters

1 John 1
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1 John 2
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1 John 3

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

1 John 4
7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

1 John 5
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Have you realized that throughout all his 5 chapters, the same theme is repeated time and time again? Its hard not to get that conclusion what the apostle John is telling his Jewish betheren how to be right with God.

 

[stonesoffire]

There’s a difference between righteous and upright.

 

[Guojing]

Jesus was All About Righteousness, because He Was Righteousness. Awesome.

Yes, as Paul would explained to us, we have his imputed righteouness when we believe he died for our sins and rose again (Romans 5:12-19)

 

[stonesoffire]

You wisely refer to Paul's letters for your salvation doctrine, which is the right thing to do.

If you just read 1 John alone, without knowing anything about Romans to Philemon, and you read about his advice on how to be "right with God", what will your conclusion be?

Let me give you some examples spread throughout all his chapters

1 John 1
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1 John 2
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1 John 3

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

1 John 4
7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

1 John 5
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Have you realized that throughout all his 5 chapters, the same theme is repeated time and time again? Its hard not to get that conclusion what the apostle John is telling his Jewish betheren how to be right with God.

Could John be speaking about acting out in fleshly ways towards others in these passages of scripture? Am talking about the works of the flesh. If we are moving in the Spirit of God we will move wisely and in love. And we will treat others in this way,

We treat this as if there’s an option.

 

[Guojing]

Could John be speaking about acting out in fleshly ways towards others in these passages of scripture? Am talking about the works of the flesh. If we are moving in the Spirit of God we will move wisely and in love. And we will treat others in this way,

We treat this as if there’s an option.

If you read how James, Peter and John presented their letters to the Jews and Israel, the same theme appears in all of them.

To the Jews, salvation is not something they can be assured of NOW. Their task is to stay faithful, do works and so on and so forth.

Only at the end when Jesus comes back for them, then they will know whether they are saved or not. (Acts 3:19-21 calls this the times of refreshing)

3 examples from James and 1 Peter, since I have already presented what John stated in 1 John.

James 1
12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

James 5
7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.

8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.

10 Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.

11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

1 Peter 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:

7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

1 Peter 1 is probably the clearest example of the distinction between what Paul is teaching the Body of Christ, and what Peter is instructing the Jews.

Notice Peter said salvation is reserved in heaven and only to be revealed in the last time, which refers to Christ return. That means the Jews don't have it now. It is thru trial of their faith, and at the end if they pass the trial, that they will receive salvation.

In contrast, Paul tells us we are righteous, we have salvation RIGHT NOW when we believe in 1 Cor 15:1-4.

It is not something that is reserved for us in heaven, that we will only get during the rapture, nor do we need to undergo any trials before we are saved.

 

[VCO]

You wisely refer to Paul's letters for your salvation doctrine, which is the right thing to do.

If you just read 1 John alone, without knowing anything about Romans to Philemon, and you read about his advice on how to be "right with God", what will your conclusion be?

Let me give you some examples spread throughout all his chapters

1 John 1
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1 John 2
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1 John 3

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

1 John 4
7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

1 John 5
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Have you realized that throughout all his 5 chapters, the same theme is repeated time and time again? Its hard not to get that conclusion what the apostle John is telling his Jewish betheren how to be right with God.

Let me explain something to you. Don't walk in Darkness, does not me that Christian does not sin.

It is referring to the DOMINANT LIFESTYLE CHARACTERISTIC.

If you continually Sin, then you are walking in Darkness.

If you continually Strive to OBEY HIM out of LOVE, then you are walking in the Light, even you stumble once in awhile in Sin.

But the Main focus is to Strive to do what PLEASES THE LORD. IN OTHER WORDS Sin no longer has DOMINION over you.

If you THINK YOU GAVE UP SINNING, you are WRONG, and have LOWERED GOD's Standard to something you can keep, and ignore that sins you cannot KEEP. In other words you have become a modern day PHARISEE.


Ecclesiastes 7:20 (NKJV)
20 For there is not a just man on earth who does good And does not sin.

1 Peter 2:13-17 (NKJV)
13 Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake, whether to the king as supreme,
14 or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good.
15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men--
16 as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God.
17 Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.


Every time you exceed the POSTED SPEED LIMIT - YOU SIN.

-
Every time you LITTER - YOU ARE SINNING.



Failure to pick up dog poop - YOU SIN.

Text in this Crosswalk - YOU SIN.

Lots of more Ordinances I could cover.



The YARD STICK IS NOT OBEDIANCE,

IT IS UNDYING AGAPE LOVE.


Ephesians 6:24 (HCSB)
24 Grace be with all who have undying {agape} love
for our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Guojing]

Let me explain something to you. Don't walk in Darkness, does not me that Christian does not sin.

It is referring to the DOMINANT LIFESTYLE CHARACTERISTIC.

If you continually Sin, then you are walking in Darkness.

If you continually Strive to OBEY HIM out of LOVE, then you are walking in the Light, even you stumble once in awhile in Sin.

But the Main focus is to Strive to do what PLEASES THE LORD. IN OTHER WORDS Sin no longer has DOMINION over you.

If you THINK YOU GAVE UP SINNING, you are WRONG, and have LOWERED GOD's Standard to something you can keep, and ignore that sins you cannot KEEP. In other words you have become a modern day PHARISEE.


Ecclesiastes 7:20 (NKJV)
20 For there is not a just man on earth who does good And does not sin.

1 Peter 2:13-17 (NKJV)
13 Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake, whether to the king as supreme,
14 or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good.
15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men--
16 as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God.
17 Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.

View attachment 219173
Every time you exceed the POSTED SPEED LIMIT - YOU SIN.

- View attachment 219174
Every time you LITTER - YOU ARE SINNING.

View attachment 219175

Failure to pick up dog poop - YOU SIN.

Text in this Crosswalk - YOU SIN.

Lots of more Ordinances I could cover.



The YARD STICK IS NOT OBEDIANCE,

IT IS UNDYING AGAPE LOVE.


Ephesians 6:24 (HCSB)
24 Grace be with all who have undying {agape} love
for our Lord Jesus Christ.

Are you answering my question?

If, after you follow what Paul stated in 1 Cor 15:1-4, you don't love your brother, and you don't love God, what will John say will happen to you, going back to say 1 John 3:15?

To put it in another way, according to Paul's letters, does one need to love God, or love his brother, in order for him to be saved?

 

[Guojing]

Are you answering my question?

If, after you follow what Paul stated in 1 Cor 15:1-4, you don't love your brother, and you don't love God, what will John say will happen to you, going back to say 1 John 3:15?

To put it in another way, according to Paul's letters, does one need to love God, or love his brother, in order for him to be saved?

There is one more verse from John I realized that will apply above, a scary verse in 1 John 3:14

We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

 

[star]

We are to love one another as God loves us but that does not mean we are to love actions when those actions, words, behavior goes against God and His Word. Even though God loves us He does not always love our actions, behavior.

 

[VCO]

Are you answering my question?

If, after you follow what Paul stated in 1 Cor 15:1-4, you don't love your brother, and you don't love God, what will John say will happen to you, going back to say 1 John 3:15?

To put it in another way, according to Paul's letters, does one need to love God, or love his brother, in order for him to be saved?

The only PEOPLE that DO NOT LOVE WITH AGAPE LOVE, are those Who are NOT BORN AGAIN.

JESUS SAID:
Matthew 7:13-14 (NKJV)
13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.


They have NEVER been BORN AGAIN, even though they sit on a PEW every Sunday.

It is not THAT YOU GO TO CHURCH that Counts, IT IS WHY YOU GO TO CHURCH THAT COUNTS.

If that motive is not You LOVE HIM with that Self-Sacrificial LOVE, it is worthless to GOD.

 

[VCO]

Are you answering my question?

If, after you follow what Paul stated in 1 Cor 15:1-4, you don't love your brother, and you don't love God, what will John say will happen to you, going back to say 1 John 3:15?

To put it in another way, according to Paul's letters, does one need to love God, or love his brother, in order for him to be saved?

BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS are those who LOVE LIKE THAT, no and's, if's, or maybe's. That DOES NOT MEAN WE ARE PERFECT, but rather, we are the ones who STRIVE to please HIM, and when we FAIL, we are the first one's ready to confess that Failure, according to 1 John 1:9.
The others in my opinion are just pretenders.

 

[VCO]

There is one more verse from John I realized that will apply above, a scary verse in 1 John 3:14

We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

I do not find it SCARY AT ALL, I find it extremely encouraging.

1 John 3:14 (HCSB)
14 We know that we have passed from death to life because we love our brothers. The one who does not love remains in death.


I have Loved like that, ever since the night of my third attempt as Suicide. That is when I truly surrendered to HIM as LORD, meaning Master.

HE wants all of YOU, to Surrender, not just Part of you.

 

[EleventhHour]

That would be incorrect.

John does not state works of love are required for righteousness but rather that is how we should be known.

This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.

Hmmmm..... @star this received a disagree... do you see an error here?



Me thinks a bit of retribution going on.

 

[EleventhHour]

If you take one particular passage, you can of course avoid that

As I have said to him, when you read the entire 1 John, and avoid reading Paul into his letter, you cannot run away from that conclusion

I am not avoiding ... you however seem to be implying we save ourselves by our love?

 

[CS1]

It does not get any plainer..........Our righteous works have ZERO to do with Salvation!

English Standard Version
he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Berean Study Bible
He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.

Berean Literal Bible
He saved us, not by works in righteousness that we did, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

New American Standard Bible
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

King James Bible
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

I just want to say there are four other RED X's here that are not mine. And we are saved by grace through faith = believe which is something one must do to be saved

 

[EleventhHour]

I just want to say there are four other RED X's here that are not mine. And we are saved by grace through faith = believe which is something one must do to be saved

While you are at maybe you can explain your disagreement with my post?