Mary's Infidelity

garee · Jul 18, 2020

.
It's remarkable the number of people I encounter online who sincerely
believe that Joseph shared a home with Jesus' mom with no intention of
ever having any children by her. In other words; they actually believe that
Joseph was celibate in his own home; and consequently Mary too: a young
girl in the prime of life no less. I can't imagine a more dysfunctional
marriage than that. (Imagine kids growing up in a home where parents
never hug, kiss, or display the slightest feelings of romantic affection for
each other.)

Some folk-- apparently inadequately schooled in the birds and the bees -
need to be told that Joseph and his best girl were engaged to be married
before either one of them were informed about a somebody named Jesus.

● Matt 1:18 . .Now this is how Jesus the Messiah was born. His mother,
Mary, was engaged to be married to Joseph.

Since Mary was already engaged to Joseph prior to Gabriel's announcement;
the logical conclusion is that she was marrying a Jewish guy for the usual
reasons that Jewish girls wanted a Jewish husband-- to settle down, cohabit
with a Jewish man, and raise a Jewish family.

And since Joseph was already engaged to Mary prior to the dream sequence,
the logical conclusion is that he was marrying a Jewish girl for the usual
reasons that Jewish guys wanted a Jewish wife-- to settle down, cohabit with
a Jewish woman, and raise a Jewish family.

Since the inspired Gospel narratives do not clearly, and without ambiguity,
indicate otherwise, it has to be assumed, from the normal round of Jewish
experience, that those two Jewish adults fully intended to sleep together
after their wedding just like every other normal Jewish couple did back then.

Another point worth well worth the trouble to refute is that in Catholicism, it
is a sin to marry with no intent of producing children. That sin is based upon
a very early blessing in the book of Genesis before there ever were religions
like Judaism, Christianity, or Catholicism.

● Gen 1:28 . .God blessed them and said to them; Be fruitful and increase in
number

Catholicism regards that blessing as a commandment. Therefore, had Mary
and Joseph made no attempt whatsoever to produce children together, then
they would have been guilty of disobeying that which Rome regards as a
divine fiat. It gets worse.

The Bible's God tempts no man to sin (Jas 1:13). So if He had directed Mary
and Joseph into a celibate, platonic marriage-- thus forcing them to disobey
His early fiat --then according to Rome's thinking; God would have been
guilty of leading Jesus' parents into sin.

NOTE: A very serious ethnical point worth emphasizing is that Joseph and
his wife were both Abraham's posterity. God early-on blessed their
paterfamilias with this remark:

● Gen 22:17 . . In blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply
thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea
shore.

Had Joseph not attempted to produce children of his own with his wife, he
would have failed to participate in Abraham's blessing and do his part in
perpetuating his ancestor's seed. In other words: it was Joseph's sacred
privilege, and his sacred duty, to make an honest attempt to have children
with Jesus' mom.
_

Yes we must be careful how we hear and believe?

We know the flesh of Christ is typified as sinful as a must to do what the letter of the law as it is written "Death" could not. Introduce the law of faith. The unseen eternal

The demonstration of the father not seen working with and in the Son of man seen . It reveal's before the ressurection .no power was attributed to His flesh which the Son of man, Jesus said profits for zero. . No such thing as holiness of the corrupted flesh. The corrupted things seen. God not seen cannot create another God seen as if he was a man . We walk by faith not by sight.

Romans 1:3-5 King James Version (KJV) Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

soggykitten · Jul 18, 2020

Webers.Home said:

I could be very wrong in reading your efforts here but, it seems to me you resort to a passive aggressive personality and now interject what I think is called a straw man. Speaking for what you're pretty sure someone else meant about God.

What leads me to this conclusion is that the Bible shuts you down immediately. But you use it to keep going. To what end? I meant it when I asked, when did you lose your grace? What can, what may, we do for you to help your condition as pertains to this seeming need to cast aspersions upon Mary. And of course by relation, Jesus.

I am pretty sure every Bible reading Christian here knows God wasn't born of a woman. There then is no issue there, as you think to try and imply due to replies thus far.
I'm pretty sure every Bible reading Christian also knows Jesus was begat upon Mary by God's holy spirit. God came to the world appearing as a man. Everyone that beheld him saw a male human and God at the same time. As Jesus said of himself. We've pretty much all read that I'm sure.

Now, the entire point behind self-identifying as a Christian as I see it is to remember first the meaning of even that word, Christian. Christ-like. Just as we may wish again to remember the angel that told Joseph in the dream the name of his forthcoming son.Emmanuel. Or, spelled Immanuel. However you like.

And we're told in that same chapter in Matthew 1 that that name translates to, God with us.
Which goes to further sustain prior to his saying it, what Jesus told his apostles of himself many years after his birth. I and the father are one. When you have seen me you have seen the father.
It isn't more clear than to inform a reader when anyone saw Jesus they were seeing God. God being everywhere,it is of course possible for God to beget himself upon Mary and arrive in the world as he saw fit.

The only issue then as far as I can see due to your insistence on a already defeated point and by God himself is, to what end are you berating Mary? And Jesus in this manner?

First you write a discussion invite that basically labels Mary a whore worthy of death. Because in her time that is what happened to women who were unfaithful to their betrothed or spouse. At least as I recall the women were. I don't know if men were stoned to death for infidelity.

Then you proceed to argue in a circular manner that seems to want to dispel the validity of the very saving gospel itself. Even throwing in the C word for effect. Cult.

Because man is not saved by man. Man is saved by the grace of God alone. And how man came to be aware God bestowed his grace upon all of mankind is through the man who was also God, Jesus. Or, Immanuel.

Which would make sense being God is immense. The Gospel delivered from the sky would be a sure fired way to reach the whole world before the Internet was invented. But, that voice resonating around the world could be construed in many different ways to be from many different sources depending upon the culture listening to its message.

God shined his grace on the world by bringing himself to let us know he did that. I think that is why he called it the good news. And what better way to guarantee you get the real story than he delivering it himself?

I typically avoid reading long posts.
If I wanted to read a book I'd go to my bookshelf and shut down the computer. I wince when I make them myself but at times it feels necessary to point for point hammer out a concern. Like now.

But, this discussion is in my view something more at this point. Which is why I'll endure wincing just to get this out.

I read you as one who is at this point not here to lift up the Gospel from what I see in your posting.I read you attempting to take what you think is a sledge, and hammering away at the foundation pillars of the truth of God as arrived in the Lord Jesus Christ, Immanuel.

You'll clearly not be moved by the truth in God's written word. You'll therefore as I see it, not be persuaded away from your rush southward on the slippery slope toward blasphemy, if you haven't already passed the mile marker entering into its territory, by a word we say. No matter how many pages we contribute in an effort to make you U-turn.

Which in closing is why I say now, I hope everyone reading you to this point have prayed or start praying for your recovery from your fall from grace. And that's what I see in your writing here. A desperate person fallen from grace and railing from the darkness to make sense of where they've now arrived.

I pray for you still and have since I first read your first post. I pray that, like unto Paul, the scales upon your eyes fall away. And you see the light of hope and truth shining upon your face till it blinds the vision you have now that makes you think the way you do here. Misery loves company.

Don't let it consume you.
God is all. All you have to do is let go and trust he's got your back.
And the truth of his word will make sense to you. Because shoveling dirt over what you don't understand doesn't take away from the blessed gift that is there blossoming for the rest of us and in clear view.

God help you.

I gotta take an aspirin. The wincing is getting to me. But I did feel that had to be said. For you who hate wallposts, please forgive me.

Webers.Home · Jul 18, 2020

.
Continuing from post No.14

When someone is on their deathbed, in their last moments, sometimes they
begin to perceive that Hell is more than just academic; they instinctively
know it's coming and likely to become very concerned about ending up
there. In moments like that, people don't need religion, no, they need a
knight in shining armor, so to speak, and it so happens there's a God-given
knight available.

● Luke 2:8-12 . .And there were shepherds living out in the fields nearby,
keeping watch over their flocks at night. An angel of the Lord appeared to
them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were terrified.

. . . But the angel said to them; "Don't be afraid. I bring you good news of
great joy that will be for all the people. Today, in the town of David, a savior
has been born to you; he is Messiah, the Lord."

The angel announced the birth of a savior; defined by Webster's as one who
rescues. We've all seen examples-- lifeguards, firemen, cops, emergency
medical teams, Coast Guard units, snow patrols, and mountain rescue
teams. Rescue workers typically save people in distress who are facing
imminent death and/or grave danger and utterly helpless to do anything
about it.

In other words: Jesus Christ is a lifeline, so to speak, that God is all set to
throw to anyone and everyone for whom destiny in Hell is a foregone
conclusion.

● John 3:14-17 . . As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so
must the Son of Man be lifted up; that whoever believes may in him have
eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten son,
that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

The incident to which Christ referred is located at Num 21:5-9. Long story
short: Moses' people became weary of eating manna all the time at every
meal. But instead of courteously, and diplomatically, petitioning their divine
benefactor for a different diet, they became hostile and confrontational;
angrily demanding tastier food.

In response to their insolence, and their ingratitude for His providence; God
sent a swarm of deadly poisonous vipers among them; which began striking
people; and every strike was 100% fatal, no exceptions.

After a number of people died, the rest came to their senses and begged
Moses to intercede. In reply; The Lord instructed Moses to cobble a replica of
the vipers and hoist it up on a pole in plain view so that everyone dying from
snakebite could look to the image for relief.

The key issue here is that the replica was the only God-given remedy for the
people's bites-- not sacrifices and offerings, not tithing, not church
attendance, not scapulars, not confession, not holy days of obligation, not
the Sabbath, not the golden rule, not charity, not Bible study and/or Sunday
school, not self denial, not vows of poverty, not the Ten Commandments,
not one's religion of choice, no; not even prayers. The replica was it; nothing
else would suffice to save their lives.

As an allegory, Moses' replica indicates that Christ's crucifixion for the sins of
the world is the only God-given rescue from the wrath of God; and when
people accept it, then according to John 3:14-17 and John 5:24, they qualify
for safety. Those who reject his crucifixion as the only God-given rescue
from a fate worse than death, are already on the docket to face it.

● John 3:18 . .Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does
not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the
name of God's one and only Son.

» His son's "name" in this case is relative to Moses' replica of the deadly
snakes.
_

posthuman · Jul 18, 2020

Webers.Home said:

yes.

because we commonly believe Matthew 1:22-23 is the word of God.

Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the LORD . . .

the whole Bible is about Jesus. Christ is the Bible's primary intent & interpretation. we also commonly believe John 5:39.

garee · Jul 18, 2020

Webers.Home said:

.
Continuing from post No.14

When someone is on their deathbed, in their last moments, sometimes they
begin to perceive that Hell is more than just academic; they instinctively
know it's coming and likely to become very concerned about ending up
there. In moments like that, people don't need religion, no, they need a
knight in shining armor, so to speak, and it so happens there's a God-given
knight available.

● Luke 2:8-12 . .And there were shepherds living out in the fields nearby,
keeping watch over their flocks at night. An angel of the Lord appeared to
them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were terrified.

. . . But the angel said to them; "Don't be afraid. I bring you good news of
great joy that will be for all the people. Today, in the town of David, a savior
has been born to you; he is Messiah, the Lord."

The angel announced the birth of a savior; defined by Webster's as one who
rescues. We've all seen examples-- lifeguards, firemen, cops, emergency
medical teams, Coast Guard units, snow patrols, and mountain rescue
teams. Rescue workers typically save people in distress who are facing
imminent death and/or grave danger and utterly helpless to do anything
about it.

In other words: Jesus Christ is a lifeline, so to speak, that God is all set to
throw to anyone and everyone for whom destiny in Hell is a foregone
conclusion.

● John 3:14-17 . . As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so
must the Son of Man be lifted up; that whoever believes may in him have
eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten son,
that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

The incident to which Christ referred is located at Num 21:5-9. Long story
short: Moses' people became weary of eating manna all the time at every
meal. But instead of courteously, and diplomatically, petitioning their divine
benefactor for a different diet, they became hostile and confrontational;
angrily demanding tastier food.

In response to their insolence, and their ingratitude for His providence; God
sent a swarm of deadly poisonous vipers among them; which began striking
people; and every strike was 100% fatal, no exceptions.

After a number of people died, the rest came to their senses and begged
Moses to intercede. In reply; The Lord instructed Moses to cobble a replica of
the vipers and hoist it up on a pole in plain view so that everyone dying from
snakebite could look to the image for relief.

The key issue here is that the replica was the only God-given remedy for the
people's bites-- not sacrifices and offerings, not tithing, not church
attendance, not scapulars, not confession, not holy days of obligation, not
the Sabbath, not the golden rule, not charity, not Bible study and/or Sunday
school, not self denial, not vows of poverty, not the Ten Commandments,
not one's religion of choice, no; not even prayers. The replica was it; nothing
else would suffice to save their lives.

As an allegory, Moses' replica indicates that Christ's crucifixion for the sins of
the world is the only God-given rescue from the wrath of God; and when
people accept it, then according to John 3:14-17 and John 5:24, they qualify
for safety. Those who reject his crucifixion as the only God-given rescue
from a fate worse than death, are already on the docket to face it.

● John 3:18 . .Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does
not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the
name of God's one and only Son.

» His son's "name" in this case is relative to Moses' replica of the deadly
snakes.
_

I understand hell to be the present sufferings of this life as the wage of sin. Christ in us yoked with us makes the sufferings lighter. When a person dies the sufferings does .

Those who do receive a new incorruptible born again spirit will raise up on the last day and the letter of the law that caused the sufferings will be cast into the judgment fire, Never to rise up and condemn through sufferings (corruption) a entire creation ever again.

Death as hell. . the suffering of this life. Catholicism trying to make sufferings after death .They do despite to the grace of God.

Revelation 20:14 And death and (or as) hell (suffering )were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.(final)

GaryA · Jul 18, 2020

GaryA said:

There is no such thing as "the mother of God"... (as a proper Biblical reference/statement)

God does not have a mother.

Just because Jesus had an earthly mother does not make the phrase "mother of God" valid - because, to say such a phrase indicates "all that is God" - which renders the phrase inaccurate.

Did I not explain this well enough???

Benadam · Jul 19, 2020

GaryA said:

Jesus is one person. Jesus is a divine person being fully Human. This divine person was conceived in Mary's womb developed for nine months and was born. A divine person is the fruit of a virgin's womb. A divine person being fully Human is Mary's child. Jesus, the divine person will say He is the child of Mary.

The title Mother of God was to protect Jesus. Protect Him from those who would partition His humanity and divinity and divide our saviour. This is what you are doing. Jesus didn't suffer the division you project onto Him. The division is in you. Maybe your hate for Jesus's Mother.

GaryA · Jul 19, 2020

soggykitten said:

Nothing in scripture calls Mary 'the mother of God'. Yes - Mary is the [earthly/human] mother of Jesus. But, that is not the same thing.

Again, when you use the word 'God', you are saying "all that is God" - Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

Mary is not the mother of "all that is God"...

Benadam · Jul 19, 2020

GaryA said:

I agree she is not the Mother of the Trinity but no one believes that. She is the Mother of Jesus who is God .Like we are not just a body or just a soul Our mothers aren't the Mother of our bodies but not our soul Jesus isn't just divine or just human. His mother isn't the Mother of His humanity but not His divinity because He is a Divine person being human.

GaryA · Jul 19, 2020

Benadam said:

This is beside the point.

If you say "mother of God", you are saying "mother of all that is God" - it is that simple. It is a matter of language. You cannot extract or separate "mother of Jesus" from "mother of God" -- 'God' is all-inclusive.

Benadam said:

This is incorrect.

Benadam said:

This is garbage/hogwash/rubbish.

Benadam · Jul 19, 2020

GaryA said:

No, that's a self imposed man made rule.

HEB 1:6

6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,

“Let all God’s angels worship him.”[c]
7 In speaking of the angels he says,

“He makes his angels spirits,
and his servants flames of fire.”[d]
8 But about the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;

The imposition of an inclusion rule upon the use of the term 'God' would make the Father's words a violation.

God calls God God.

posthuman · Jul 19, 2020

GaryA said:

do you believe your fleshly parents created your soul?

and Christ also - that the Son of God didn't pre-exist His incarnation?

posthuman · Jul 19, 2020

Benadam said:

i suspect you've got some typos in here and what you meant was:

our earthly parents are the parents of our bodies but not the creators of our souls
vis-à-vis Mary is the mother of the earthly body of Jesus but not the mother of His divine person
- i.e. 'mother of God' is a dangerously heretical misnomer

am i reading you right?

Benadam · Jul 19, 2020

posthuman said:

No. But thank you. Your input is appreciated.

Maybe if we define the word 'person' and agree that a person is born whole and entire. Even though the soul is created by God a woman gives birth to a person who is a body and soul. It isn't proper to say a Mother gave birth to the body of her child but not it's soul because she is the Mother of a whole person body and soul.
I'm saying the same thing is true no matter what the personal composition of the child is. Mary gave birth to a whole person not parts of a person. Jesus is not a person without His Divinity or without His Humanity. The Second Divine Person is but not Jesus.
I hope I articulated what I mean well enough.

garee · Jul 19, 2020

Benadam said:

As sons of God we are not what we will be the bride as new creatures. we know no man after the flesh (what the eyes see) but walk by faith the unseen eternal.

God who is not a man . Remains without mother or father beginning of Spirit life or end thereof.

Jesus as a apostle prophet did not do the will of the flesh. He did the will of the unseen father without sin in order to outwardly demonstrate the work of both working as one.

Mary does not come into the picture . He did not do her will. flesh gives birth to flesh. In that way he used Mary or Josef to represent Christianity called ; "The mother of us all" or surrogate womb.

Galatians 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

Paul with godly suffering in pain of birth held out the gospel incorruptible seed to Timothy in a hope Christ would work in Timothy

2 Corinthians 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

The freewoman = Christianity.

Galatians 4: 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

Perfect picture of the mother of us all in a parable (Revelation 12)

soberxp · Jul 19, 2020

here is why god choose Israel and why and so many why ...

I don't like use word ,I like use pics .

p_rehbein · Jul 19, 2020

Every time I read the Title of this Thread on the Forum Page, I STILL GET UPSET.........

Webers.Home · Jul 19, 2020

.

p_rehbein said:

● Phil 4:6 . . Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer
and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God.

C.S. Lewis, famed author of "The Screwtape Letters", and "The Chronicles of
Narnia"; once remarked that he prayed, not because he expected results
but, because it made him feel better.

Well, if prayer makes you feel better, then more power to you— in point of
fact, I highly recommend conversational prayer because talking things out
with somebody, even an imaginary playmate, is far and away better than
holding everything in.

There are instances in the Old Testament where God actually sent His people
troubles just to get their attention and start them talking to Him again. Sort
of like a little boy in third grade spitting on the hair of a girl sitting in front of
him so she'll notice him. (chuckle) Well, if God spits on your hair, so to
speak, then maybe it's time you and He had a fireside chat.

● Phil 4:7 . . And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will
guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

The "peace" spoken of serves to settle people down. In other words: prevent
them from over-thinking their problems. Always dwelling on negative
aspects is destructive even for strong people.

Nobody knows the trouble I've been through,
Nobody knows my sorrow.
Nobody knows the trouble I've seen;
Sometimes I'm up, sometimes I'm down,
Oh, yes, Lord; sometimes I'm almost to the ground.

Well; some of us would be to the ground were it not for going to prayer
instead.
_

GaryA · Jul 19, 2020

Benadam said:

This has no bearing on what I am saying.

I would agree with the statement that Jesus is God in the flesh.

However, "mother of Jesus" and "mother of God" are two totally different statements.

Go look up the Hebrew and Greek words translated 'God' in the Bible - and then tell me what the phrase "mother of God" means...

GaryA · Jul 19, 2020

posthuman said:

Absolutely not!

I believe that you have misunderstood Benadam's statement(s).

What you said above is similar to what he was saying. I am disagreeing with that.

Mary's Infidelity

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