By Works

[jackrosie]

You would Never boast of a true work of faith. You boast when your working for self. And that type of work is called self righteous bloody rags type of works. Even for believers

Do we do this works? Yes. That’s why it is great to have a HS who chastens us

When we work for the Lord....it must be in his strength...I can remember as a new babe...I tried to work in my own strength...I burnt myself out and became ill......,

I believe we must wait on God to show us the works he wants us to carry out....when we do that,the works happen automatically/naturally.....because we do these works in His strength and not our own.

So when we do those works....it is done to Glorify God and God only.

We are nothing without God......I have also come to realise that I don’t want to stay close to self.

I want to be as close to God as I could possibly be......

 

[EleventhHour]

Nope
not close at all
that’s not how the Greek works
being righteous is not if the law because the law Condemns Everyone. No one has ever been declared righteous by the law.

Agree, Jesus ratified and fulfilled the law.

....through the obedience of one the many will be made righteousness.

 

[know1]

and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God on the basis of faith.

As I stated in post 168, "If a person is accounted righteous, they are not necessarily justified, but if they are justified before God, then they are definitely righteous."
I never questioned the righteousness of those who believe in Christ or on His name.

 

[know1]

You are correct. I was curious and ran a search of all verses that contain "righteous" and its derivatives and then searched for "just" and its derivatives in them, to get to the bottom of it. Justification is always declared before judges. Justification before God is God's judgment, whether final judgment of soul, or during life, awarding favor vs calamity, blessing vs curse, etc. God's judgment is giving wages according to works, exalting, smiting down, casting out, lifting up, all that. Justification definition by the Bible itself (in bold):

2 Chronicles 6:23 Then hear thou from heaven, and do, and judge thy servants, by requiting the wicked, by recompensing his way upon his own head; and by justifying the righteous, by giving him according to his righteousness.

So justification (and conversely condemnation) is defined as "act of God's judgment and meting out wages accordingly", in case of justification, wages of righteousness. So unrighteousness predates condemnation and righteousness predates justification. A believer will show fruits of the Spirit which isnt their own work, the just receive the Spirit and conversely His righteousness by faith. And no one can be justified by works because we would all receive death wage for sins committed. And that unrighteous sinner must be buried in baptism because God can't leave a sinner alive. So that's that subtle difference but it doesn't really change things, it's the same people. The righteous are without exception the ones, and also the only ones, who receive justification as the wages of righteousness, regardless of the covenant. Obviously there is no righteous person who is not also justified, either. God sees and judges all things without skipping.

@know1

Well, you were doing good and I agreed with you, until the last two statements.
The new testament show, justification comes to those who believe on the Lord Jesus, which is through faith in Him.
And faith without a corresponding act or work is a dead faith.
An act of faith James speaks of, is NOT the same as a work of the law Paul talked about.
But Paul did state that righteousness is imputed when a person only believes, but salvation is made when they ACT on said belief in Christ.
That single act is the work James is talking about.

 

[EleventhHour]

Well, you were doing good and I agreed with you, until the last two statements.
The new testament show, justification comes to those who believe on the Lord Jesus, which is through faith in Him.
And faith without a corresponding act or work is a dead faith.
An act of faith James speaks of, is NOT the same as a work of the law Paul talked about.
But Paul did state that righteousness is imputed when a person only believes, but salvation is made when they ACT on said belief in Christ.
That single act is the work James is talking about.

So faith is not enough to save but a single act will save?

Can it be any act?

 

[SoulWeaver]

Well, you were doing good and I agreed with you, until the last two statements.
The new testament show, justification comes to those who believe on the Lord Jesus, which is through faith in Him.
And faith without a corresponding act or work is a dead faith.
An act of faith James speaks of, is NOT the same as a work of the law Paul talked about.
But Paul did state that righteousness is imputed when a person only believes, but salvation is made when they ACT on said belief in Christ.
That single act is the work James is talking about.

I don't know why you would not agree with that... the Scripture in both the OT and the NT divides people in judgment into ONLY TWO groups: the righteous, and the wicked. The righteous invariably get justified in the end, and the wicked invariably get condemned, this is the invariable wages for righteousness and unrighteousness... This is why the wicked old man is laid dead when accepting Christ (the only way to avoid due wages of death is if the old man is already dead), and we are given Jesus (the only way for us to attain the wages of righteousness is to have the righteous one living within, because righteousness cannot come of us).

Those before Christ also believed God just the same, believed in God's faithfulness. And if you really believe in something, that will of course affect behavior. If I believe a famine is about to hit, I am going to stock up on food. I do not have to tell myself to "act" upon it, it naturally follows one another. This is why James mocks people who would say to their brother "go in peace and be warmed and filled" supposedly caring but not wanting to help, revealing that they didn't really care. So he rebuked them either to get these people to get born again if they weren't, or for the Word of God to do its chastising rod smack and churn up their lagging fruit. Works do and should follow faith. But continual emphasis on "acts" and "acting" pushes us into the area of teaching works salvation. The Scripture is clear that there needs to be less and less of us, and an increase of Him. The works are of God, "prepared FOR" us who believed (and testifying to the presence of a new inner man). It's the Word of God having taken root in heart invisibly, coming to fruit visibly in its season.

 

[dcontroversal]

Nope
not close at all
that’s not how the Greek works
being righteous is not if the law because the law Condemns Everyone. No one has ever been declared righteous by the law.

Amen.....the law condemns.....NO ONE has kept it other than Jesus....NO ONE WILL KEEP IT other than JESUS and if you break the least of it's commandments at any age and then if it were possible to KEEP IT the rest of your life, you are still deemed a LAW BREAKER AND CONDEMNED!

 

[dcontroversal]

The tragic truth peddled on this thread by the WE MUST, I MUST group......

We PRODUCE NOTHING....THE VINE does not labor to bear fruit....it is the ROOT that labors and produces the fruit....and it is a natural process.....

Christ is the ROOT, the SOURCE of life, the NUTRIENTS....

The SUNLIGHT NEEDED IS THE word of GOD BATHING THE VINE

From root to light it is ALL GOD through us.

He is the one working in us and through us as a living sacrifice. He is the one producing all works that are righteous and all fruit that is conaidered GOOD.

 

[dcontroversal]

As I stated in post 168, "If a person is accounted righteous, they are not necessarily justified, but if they are justified before God, then they are definitely righteous."
I never questioned the righteousness of those who believe in Christ or on His name.

Ummmmm.......yeahhhhh ok.

They go hand in hand.....One cannot be legally justified unless they are deemed RIGHT-eous.....

 

[calibob]

The tragic truth peddled on this thread by the WE MUST, I MUST group......

We PRODUCE NOTHING....THE VINE does not labor to bear fruit....it is the ROOT that labors and produces the fruit....and it is a natural process.....

Christ is the ROOT, the SOURCE of life, the NUTRIENTS....

The SUNLIGHT NEEDED IS THE word of GOD BATHING THE VINE

From root to light it is ALL GOD through us.

He is the one working in us and through us as a living sacrifice. He is the one producing all works that are righteous and all fruit that is conaidered GOOD.

Amen, preach it brother!

 

[dcontroversal]

Amen, preach it brother!

Bro, you ok migo...been a while...been missing you and wondering how you doing migo

 

[Bbrdrd]

Well, you were doing good and I agreed with you, until the last two statements.
The new testament show, justification comes to those who believe on the Lord Jesus, which is through faith in Him.
And faith without a corresponding act or work is a dead faith.
An act of faith James speaks of, is NOT the same as a work of the law Paul talked about.
But Paul did state that righteousness is imputed when a person only believes, but salvation is made when they ACT on said belief in Christ.
That single act is the work James is talking about.

What you are presenting seems to me to contradict Paul's intention when he stated it's not by works, while almost getting James correct. When Paul said it is not by works the statement is linked with boasting, because if it is the merit of our works that save then we are saving ourselves. But that's not the case, as we are wholly and completely dependent on Jesus for salvation.

So then what is James getting at? To me, it seems to be a matter of authenticity. Where your faith is, your feet will follow. If you have faith, you will not only have the capacity but also the desire to work. An atheist may be able to do charitable works, but they can't give from a place of lack. They have to take account of their own needs before they can truly care for the needs of another. With faith, we can trust God with our needs and instead attend to the needs of our brothers.

 

[know1]

Nope
not close at all
that’s not how the Greek works
being righteous is not if the law because the law Condemns Everyone. No one has ever been declared righteous by the law.

I have looked at many verses both in the old testament and in the new, concerning righteousness, and I must say, you are correct, and I stand corrected. The law does indeed bring death.
Paul said in Romans 7:9-11.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

So righteousness came through believing, even in the old testament times.
However, I still believe I am correct concerning there being a differentiation between righteousness and justification.

Isa 61:10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.

Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

[know1]

So faith is not enough to save but a single act will save?

Can it be any act?

No, not any act, but one that agrees with what you believe.
Answer me this.
When you heard and believed the gospel, did you confess Jesus as your Lord and savior.
That single act of confession, if you spoke it in faith, from your heart, then that act of confessing Jesus, saved you.
Paul clearly stated that is Romans 10:10, as did James in chapter 2.

 

[know1]

I don't know why you would not agree with that... the Scripture in both the OT and the NT divides people in judgment into ONLY TWO groups: the righteous, and the wicked. The righteous invariably get justified in the end, and the wicked invariably get condemned, this is the invariable wages for righteousness and unrighteousness... This is why the wicked old man is laid dead when accepting Christ (the only way to avoid due wages of death is if the old man is already dead), and we are given Jesus (the only way for us to attain the wages of righteousness is to have the righteous one living within, because righteousness cannot come of us).

Those before Christ also believed God just the same, believed in God's faithfulness. And if you really believe in something, that will of course affect behavior. If I believe a famine is about to hit, I am going to stock up on food. I do not have to tell myself to "act" upon it, it naturally follows one another. This is why James mocks people who would say to their brother "go in peace and be warmed and filled" supposedly caring but not wanting to help, revealing that they didn't really care. So he rebuked them either to get these people to get born again if they weren't, or for the Word of God to do its chastising rod smack and churn up their lagging fruit. Works do and should follow faith. But continual emphasis on "acts" and "acting" pushes us into the area of teaching works salvation. The Scripture is clear that there needs to be less and less of us, and an increase of Him. The works are of God, "prepared FOR" us who believed (and testifying to the presence of a new inner man). It's the Word of God having taken root in heart invisibly, coming to fruit visibly in its season.

As I stated before, James is not talking about the same works as Paul.
You are only seeing one kind of work, which is the kind anyone can do without God's help or assistance.
But can you drive a car with an internal combustion engine only, no hybrids or electric cars, without any gas in the tank?
From the natural standpoint, it's impossible.
But not if you believe God will cause the engine to run without the fuel and act on that without any doubt.
I know two people who drove a vehicle without any fuel in it, and my wife was one of them.
She could have believed the vehicle would run without fuel all day, and nothing would have happened until she ACTED on that faith.
There is only one kind of faith and it works only one way, the same way, ever time.
The same faith acted on to cast out an evil spirit is the same faith we all have to act on to receive eternal life in Christ Jesus.
If you can't cast out a spirit without verbally commanding it to leave, then why would you think you can get saved without doing the same?
Have you ever tried casting out a demon by simply believing it to be cast out?
And did it work?
But of course not.
Neither can one be saved without ACTING ON THE PROMISES OF GOD.

 

[know1]

The tragic truth peddled on this thread by the WE MUST, I MUST group......

We PRODUCE NOTHING....THE VINE does not labor to bear fruit....it is the ROOT that labors and produces the fruit....and it is a natural process.....

Christ is the ROOT, the SOURCE of life, the NUTRIENTS....

The SUNLIGHT NEEDED IS THE word of GOD BATHING THE VINE

From root to light it is ALL GOD through us.

He is the one working in us and through us as a living sacrifice. He is the one producing all works that are righteous and all fruit that is conaidered GOOD.

Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

 

[dcontroversal]

Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

All things that pertain to godliness.....

APART FROM ME YOU CAN DO NOTHING

And if you think Christ is not the one doing through us...you have a lot to unlearn and then re-learn!

For God is the One working in you both to will and to work according to His good pleasure.

 

[Bbrdrd]

that act of confessing Jesus, saved you.

That's exactly where you've gone wrong. The act of confession isn't what saves. Nor is it the belief that it will save.

Being saved caused the act of confession, not the other way around. After all:
"Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. "

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I have looked at many verses both in the old testament and in the new, concerning righteousness, and I must say, you are correct, and I stand corrected. The law does indeed bring death.
Paul said in Romans 7:9-11.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

So righteousness came through believing, even in the old testament times.
However, I still believe I am correct concerning there being a differentiation between righteousness and justification.

Isa 61:10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.

Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Here is what we see in the greek

Being justified is to be declared righteous

The word translated justified means to pronounce and treat as, to render righteous. To vindicate to acquit to be shown to be righteous to justify

 

[know1]

What you are presenting seems to me to contradict Paul's intention when he stated it's not by works, while almost getting James correct. When Paul said it is not by works the statement is linked with boasting, because if it is the merit of our works that save then we are saving ourselves. But that's not the case, as we are wholly and completely dependent on Jesus for salvation.

So then what is James getting at? To me, it seems to be a matter of authenticity. Where your faith is, your feet will follow. If you have faith, you will not only have the capacity but also the desire to work. An atheist may be able to do charitable works, but they can't give from a place of lack. They have to take account of their own needs before they can truly care for the needs of another. With faith, we can trust God with our needs and instead attend to the needs of our brothers.

Again, Paul and James are not speaking of the same kind of works.
Both Jesus and the author of Hebrews explains WHAT faith IS.
Where both Paul and James is explaining HOW faith works.
Your idea of what faith is seems to be like that of others on CC.
A general acting or likeness of what other Christians are doing.
That is not what faith is.
That is perhaps the Spirit of God moving in the person, but it is not faith, but of THE faith.