Not By Works

[Duskey]

Here is the size of a mustard seed.

Now What Mountain was HE referring To ? ? ?

I think it was the MOUNTAIN OF SIN, that stood between GOD and US.
A little bit of that kind of FAITH, REMOVES THAT MOUNTAIN OF SIN, FOREVER,
Giving US that FREE GRACE OF GOD, causing us to be REDEEMED, by HIS POWER.

I never thought of Jesus’ mustard seed analogy like that. It makes perfect sense and it’s beautiful. Thanks for sharing.

 

[star]

The first requires more explanation than I care to go through in a post, but the second I should be able to address fairly quickly. Any verse can be directed towards any nation, true, but in order to get a meaning out of the verse we must be able to see that within the intended meanings of the original context. The context of Isaiah 64 limits the usage of Isaiah's words to a situation in which a gross sin is being committed and nothing within the context suggests he was making an anthropologic point so it is inappropriate to use it for such a point. The same is true of Psalm 51 and Romans 3:10 which are often stripped of their context for the same point.

So now you are limiting scripture to a specific time/place/person. While scripture does refer to such, that very same scripture is to be applied appropriately to current time/place/person. I do not have time to go through every scripture which denote how important FAITH is in the equation of our relationship with Our Lord. If you are that much of a student of the bible, you will know where to locate all scripture relating to that word, faith.

IMHO you are saying faith cannot stand alone without some type of action. That disagree with. However, faith will eventually invoke an action. But faith can/does/has/ will stand by itself whenever it comes to our relationship with Creator God.

Mankind complicates and does all kinds of complication to God's Word/God's Plans.
It is not that complicated.

 

[EleventhHour]

But works of faith create a complete picture of faith.

For whom does it create a complete picture of faith?

 

[Bbrdrd]

For whom does it create a complete picture of faith?

It's not a matter of "for who" as it's not about demonstration. It's two sides of the same coin. The faith that saves is a faith that produces works, and the works that spring from that faith complete the faith.

 

[Bbrdrd]

So now you are limiting scripture to a specific time/place/person. While scripture does refer to such, that very same scripture is to be applied appropriately to current time/place/person. I do not have time to go through every scripture which denote how important FAITH is in the equation of our relationship with Our Lord. If you are that much of a student of the bible, you will know where to locate all scripture relating to that word, faith.

IMHO you are saying faith cannot stand alone without some type of action. That disagree with. However, faith will eventually invoke an action. But faith can/does/has/ will stand by itself whenever it comes to our relationship with Creator God.

Mankind complicates and does all kinds of complication to God's Word/God's Plans.
It is not that complicated.

I'm not saying Scripture only applies to a certain place/time period. It's the extension from a type-case to a universal picture of mankind. Isaiah's words have to do with a situation in which there is a tangible sin like idolatry that corrupts any work that is done.

What I'm saying aren't things I'm simply making up whole-cloth. James is the one who says "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. " and "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. " "Faith" that doesn't produce change is not faith, and change means works.

The question centers around whether James is speaking of the same justification as Paul. I've given the reasons from James that I believe he is. No one has offered any counter to those contextual issues.

Instead there's insistence on a peculiar reading of Paul as all-encompassing, a reading that didn't exist until 1517, and then dismissing James. Or even worse, a writing off of James entirely to say that only Paul's writings apply to the body of Christ.

 

[EleventhHour]

It's not a matter of "for who" as it's not about demonstration. It's two sides of the same coin. The faith that saves is a faith that produces works, and the works that spring from that faith complete the faith.

This is the faith that saves...........

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

It does not state.....

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 completed by works, so that no one can boast.

If what you promote is true than Paul is a liar and by default so is God.

 

[Bbrdrd]

This is the faith that saves...........

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

It does not state.....

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 completed by works, so that no one can boast.

If what you promote is true than Paul is a liar and by default so is God.

So then James is a liar? Why are James' words subject to some mysterious "context" that isn't present in his letter but Paul's aren't?

It seems to me the conflict is rather simple to address since Paul's removal of works is about merit and James' use of works is about fidelity. Paul even follows up with his removal of works in salvation to speak of the works we are to do " For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works..." So no, Paul isn't lying but his point isn't the same as James'.

 

[Magenta]

The fact that Jesus states faith the size of a mustard seed is still great faith says a lot about the power and beauty of faith.

Faith the size of a mustard seed moved the mountain of my unbelief

Now I praise the LORD, knowing He is good, and that His love endures forever

 

[EleventhHour]

So then James is a liar? Why are James' words subject to some mysterious "context" that isn't present in his letter but Paul's aren't?

It seems to me the conflict is rather simple to address since Paul's removal of works is about merit and James' use of works is about fidelity. Paul even follows up with his removal of works in salvation to speak of the works we are to do " For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works..." So no, Paul isn't lying but his point isn't the same as James'.

There is only one salvation throughout scripture >>>>> by faith alone.

This is the only lens through which to understand James.

And with regards to fidelity ...... it is Jesus who promises to be faithful.

If we are faithless, he remains faithful— for he cannot deny himself.
2 Timothy 2:13

God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
1 Corinthians 1:9

 

[preacher4truth]

... and the works that spring from that faith complete the faith.

I'd say rather that shows the faith genuine. That is what James is saying.

 

[BillG]

It's not a matter of "for who" as it's not about demonstration. It's two sides of the same coin. The faith that saves is a faith that produces works, and the works that spring from that faith complete the faith.

Here is my take on it.

The faith that saves is the faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus.

When we repent of the sin of unbelief in Jesus and

Romans 10:9-13
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

Our faith is complete in Jesus.

As a result this faith will be proven by our works.

This is what James was addressing.
Genuine faith will show up.

 

[SoulWeaver]

This is the faith that saves...........

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

It does not state.....

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 completed by works, so that no one can boast.

If what you promote is true than Paul is a liar and by default so is God.

Is it just me, or are you and @Bbrdrd actually saying the same thing? I don't understand the opposition of thought between you...

Just because faith will naturally produce a result by the means of inner change, doesn't mean we are saved BY works. Rather when I first noticed my life getting changed I thought, yeah Jesus really did change me, so if I had any doubts I then knew for fact that I really was a new creature, I could then see what I first believed. It's actually focusing on the first fruits of His word taking root in some areas of my life that I kept my sanity and faith, believing that Jesus will also take care of the rest and shepherd me through, in the first period of my believer life when I encountered a lot of sinless perfectionism teachings. But my new behaviors didn't save me nor did they "maintain" salvation. That does not even compute you're either saved forever or you are not born again yet, there's no "maintaining" salvation. Jesus saved me back when I had no works to present. And any work that might have followed is His work on me, really. I don't think to believe this is works salvation. Am I wrong and if so, where?

 

[EleventhHour]

Is it just me, or are you and @Bbrdrd actually saying the same thing? I don't understand the opposition of thought between you...

Just because faith will naturally produce a result by the means of inner change, doesn't mean we are saved BY works. Rather when I first noticed my life getting changed I thought, yeah Jesus really did change me, so if I had any doubts I then knew for fact that I really was a new creature, I could then see what I first believed. It's actually focusing on the first fruits of His word taking root in some areas of my life that I kept my sanity and faith, believing that Jesus will also take care of the rest and shepherd me through, in the first period of my believer life when I encountered a lot of sinless perfectionism teachings. But my new behaviors didn't save me nor did they "maintain" salvation. That does not even compute you're either saved forever or you are not born again yet, there's no "maintaining" salvation. Jesus saved me back when I had no works to present. And any work that might have followed is His work on me, really. I don't think to believe this is works salvation. Am I wrong and if so, where?

If works completes faith then the was the faith of the thief on the cross incomplete?

 

[SoulWeaver]

If works completes faith then the was the faith of the thief on the cross incomplete?

I don't believe that it was.
I could have died before my faith produced visible fruit.
Some would argue that by rebuking another thief, his work was speaking the truth which came from inner change. But even if he died before saying anything, he would be saved just the same. Saying that an apple is complete by growing baby apples if it lives long enough, doesn't mean that an apple tree that just started blooming is less of an apple tree.

 

[EleventhHour]

I don't believe that it was.
I could have died before my faith produced visible fruit.
Some would argue that by rebuking another thief, his work was speaking the truth which came from inner change. But even if he died before saying anything, he would be saved just the same. Saying that an apple is complete by growing baby apples if it lives long enough, doesn't mean that an apple tree that just started blooming is less of an apple tree.

So then you agree that @Bbrdrd and I not saying the same thing at all?

 

[EleventhHour]

I don't believe that it was.
I could have died before my faith produced visible fruit.
Some would argue that by rebuking another thief, his work was speaking the truth which came from inner change. But even if he died before saying anything, he would be saved just the same. Saying that an apple is complete by growing baby apples if it lives long enough, doesn't mean that an apple tree that just started blooming is less of an apple tree.

Exactly...Amen!!

 

[SoulWeaver]

So then you agree that @Bbrdrd and I not saying the same thing at all?

Let us wait and see what they say to that post of yours I just answered. I'll give them a benefit of a doubt.

 

[EleventhHour]

Let us wait and see what they say to that post of yours I just answered. I'll give them a benefit of a doubt.

Agree...he had been on this thread in the past....so I do know his ideas unless something has changed.

 

[dcontroversal]

If God had only been a little more clear and direct in dictating the bible then we wouldnt have to have all these silly arguments. Its strange isnt it that God's will is that us humans should waste our time on silly nonsense like this instead of living good positive lives and not worrying about reward or punishment, still he is perfect and we are silly ignorant humans

Yeah, I would disagree with almost 95% of what you said....

God did a fine job giving us his word and was/is clear enough

The bible tells us to earnestly contend for the faith (system of teaching found in the word)

Jesus spoke quite a bit about reward and how to make it GREAT in the Kingdom

And yes, at times we can be silly and ignorant, but lest you forget....we are made in HIS image and the last time I checked....NO MONKEYS or quadrapeds are composing music, splitting the atom, doing brain surgeries, curing diseases, and baking cakes in the kitchen pal!

 

[dcontroversal]

I never thought of Jesus’ mustard seed analogy like that. It makes perfect sense and it’s beautiful. Thanks for sharing.

Think on this one....if a man can move a mountain, curse or remove a teee with that much faith, and they can, how LITTLE FAITH DOES ONE NEED to be born again from above....WITHOUT ONE WORK ATTACHED, which is imposssible anyway...

Saved FOR....NOT BY!