All nations shall flow unto it

[garee]

I appreciate your position and your proofs. But I think you will agree that everything is not a "sign" in Revelation. Are Churches a "sign"? Is our Lord Jesus a "sign"? Is Armageddon a sign or a place? Let us look at that verse closely.

Revelation 1:1 (KJV); "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John."

1. First, the word "Revelation" is "Apokalypsis" in the Greek. It means "made manifest", or "revealed". According to the grammar, it is NOT the revealing of secrets or prophecy, but the "REVEALING" of the Person of Jesus when He is suddenly seen by men as He bursts from the clouds.
2. Second, the word "shortly" in the Greek can mean "in a short time", but it also means "quickly" and it could mean "suddenly". So the things that would happen, have, by proof of history (nearly 2,000 years), taken the meaning of "in a short period time", or, "quickly once it starts."
3. Thirdly, if points 1 and 2 are correct, then the events of Chapters 4 through 20 are all related to the bursting forth of Christ from the clouds - His "Apokalypsis" (from which the Book got its original name - Apocalypse)
4. Lastly, it is the "things that must suddenly come to pass" that are subject to signs, not every single thing in the Book. Let us take an example.

Revelation 1:13-15:
13 "And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters."

Seven Lampstands are a "sign" for the testimony of a Local Church. But "Son of man" is real. Jesus was "seed of the woman". Jesus is clothed. Are His clothes real or a "sign". Most probably a "sign" of Jesus as High Priest because the High Priest of Israel wore a garment to the foot. His white hair might or might not be a "sign". Jesus is nearly 2,000 years old, but it could be that scripture wants us to see even a longer period than this as He is the "ancient of days" and "firstborn of creation". Or is it that the "white" shows a sinless Head of the Church, or that His every thought is pure? Who knows? We must interpret the Bible with the Bible (2nd Pet.1:20). "Eyes like flame of fire" is definitely a "sign". His "feet" are real, for He is the Son of man, but how did John see them under the garment? The idea of the High Priest's full length clothes was that no flesh would appear in the Holy of Holies. Again, "fine brass is a sign that He walks in Judgment of apostate Churches. His voice is real but it being thunderous is a "sign" of displeasure and of power.

What do you think brother? Is a "seal" a "sign"? And is the torment of men real or a sign? Is Jesus a real Lamb or is that a "sign"? Could it be that if we studied prophecy throughout the Bible, we would find "signs" that depict something but that the fulfillment was real?

Try this exercise for yourself - not me. Take every single thing in Revelation Chapter 20 and show why it is a "sign", what it means and all without private interpretation (2nd Pet.1:20). You will have great difficulty. But if we take everything for real until it proves to be s sign, then we get a logical and comprehensive and coherent picture of Christ fulfilling God's plan of Genesis 1:26-28.

All answers we offer are private interpretation of His interpretation. Also called commentaries, opinions, or heresies .

The tools designed to rightly divide the parables below must be used if we are to find faith.

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

The whole book is subject to a signified understanding according to verse 1 of Revelation 1 the understanding is made known though the 2 Corinthian 4:18 key. The things seen the temporal are needed to give the unseen eternal understanding . Without parables Christ spoke not and it includes the last book .

Seal act as signs, torment a sign someone is suffering and a lamb in parables represent our unseen lord.

The difficulty is not in looking at the things seen in that parable (Chapter 20) and finding the gospel meaning by searching and comparing through the whole Bible .Especially in this last book . Having all the examples to be used to compare with, with the 66 books .

The difficulty is when man tries to literalize the metaphors. What they consider the literal translation not using 2 Corinthian 4:18 to mix faith (Hebrews 4:1-4 ). They hear but do not receive the gospel understanding .Faith must be mixed using the tools he has provided.

Hebrews 4 King James Version (KJV) Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

That law of faith must be applied in Revelation 20. faith comes by hearing not seeing.

Revelation 20 King James Version (KJV) And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

Angels have no form .The key is the gospel that binds and loosens the gates of hell. A bottomless pit defines the kind of holding. and a chain the binding power.

Revelation 20 :2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

The dragon or serpent describes the spirit of error same with devil or Satan. Bound a thousand years describes a unknow period . God does not give numbers of days or people to those who walk by faith. Mixing what they see or hear the temporal with the unseen understanding.

The thousand to those who walk by faith the unseen understanding represents a temporal time period . It is used 9 times throughout the bible .The 3 previous times it is used is a witness . to the last usage in the Revelation 20 parable

If we literalize the thousand years in the last 6 occurrences the same must be applied to the previous 3 times.

Psalm 90:4For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

Ecclesiastes 6:6 Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revealtion 20 :3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

How would you describe those metaphors giving examples from other portions of scripture?

 

[Truth7t7]

But Revelation 20 does. Who shall we believe?



I see no men who were beheaded by the the Beast "living". Even you give the resurrection as AFTER Christ comes. I see no men who were dead, and who now live, Reigning with Christ. According to the plain language and grammar of Revelation 20 the 1,000 is when Satan is bound. Since Armageddon has not yet been fought, Satan is still around. He is only bound after Armageddon.



Everything in Revelation 20 is literal. There is no reason to make this one single part of the whole Chapter allegorical. All that it does is change the meaning. But even if we allow you your allegorical 1,000 years, it is still a time when Christ and those resurrected at His coming, will reign.



My Bible says that after the future Tribulation Christ (i) gathers Israel from the four winds (Matt.24:31, Jer.49:36; Ezek.37:9), (ii) smashes Gentile Government (Dan.2:31-35), (iii) judges "ALL nations" (Matt.25:31-46) and rules the nations with a rod of iron. The Kingdoms of the earth become the kingdoms of our Lord AFTER the 42 months of Tribulation (Rev.11.15).



I would list it like this;

1. Jesus returns immediately after the Tribulation (Matt.24:30)
2. The resurrection of "those who are His" at His COMING (1st Cor.15:23)
3. The judgment of the Church at the Bema in the air (Rom.14:10; 2nd Cor.5:10)
4. The judgment of Israel at His Throne on earth (Dan.12:2)
5. The judgment of "ALL Nations" at His Throne on earth (Matt.25:31-46)
6. The establishing of Jerusalem as the new world Capital (Zech.14:16)
7. The earth is "regenerated" while the 12 Apostles rule Israel (Matt.19:28)
8. Christ rules for 1,000 years with Overcomers (Rev.20:4-6)
9. Satan is let lose at the end of the 1,000 years to raise up a rebellion by Magog and Gog
10. Magog's rebellion is put down and the heavens and the earth are purged by fire (Rev.20:11-13)
11. God ushers in a "Renewed" (lit. Gk.) heavens and earth (Rev.21)

In item #8 you continue to suggest that Rev 20:4-6 teaches Jesus Christ is going to reign in this physical Earth in a Kingdom with Mortal Humans present, your teaching is false and in grave error.

In Rev 20:1-6 below, there is no kingdom on earth or humans seen, this represents the Lord's spiritual realm.

Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

No kingdom on earth or humans are seen, not a one

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[rhern]

There will not be a future Millennial Kingdom on this earth, a false teaching of man.

Jesus returns to the battle of Armageddon, immediately after the tribulation, in final judgement by fire, as the heavens and earth are "Dissolved" by the Lord's fire in judgement 2 Peter 3:10-13

Are you a preterist?

 

[Truth7t7]

Are you a preterist?

No, I would be closer to Ahmillennial

However I believe there will be?

A Literal Future Man of Sin as the Antichrist

A Literal Future 3.5 year tribulation, that starts when the Antichrist is revealed

Literal Prophets returned Enoch/Elijah, as the "Two Witnesses" that bring plagues upon the Antichrist and his kingdom, a Remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt.

A Literal return of Jesus Christ to the battle of Armageddon, immediately after the tribulation, in fire and final judgement, dissolving the heavens and earth.

1. Jesus returns after trib

2. The Last Day resurrection of all

3. The living Believers caught up

4. The wicked judged to the Lake of fire

5. The Heavens and Earth Dissolved By Fire

6. The righteous enter the New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem.

Judgement Complete, Eternity Begins.

All In The Twinkling Of An Eye

 

[rhern]

No, I would be closer to Ah millennial


However I believe there will be?

A Literal Future Man of Sin as the Antichrist

A Literal Future 3.5 year tribulation, that starts when the Antichrist is revealed

Literal Prophets returned Enoch/Elijah, as the "Two Witnesses" that bring plagues upon the Antichrist and his kingdom, a Remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt.

A Literal return of Jesus Christ to the battle of Armageddon, immediately after the tribulation, in fire and final judgement, dissolving the heavens and earth.

1. Jesus returns after trib

2. The Last Day resurrection of all

3. The living Believers caught up

4. The wicked judged to the Lake of fire

5. The Heavens and Earth Dissolved By Fire

6. The righteous enter the New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem.

Judgement Complete, Eternity Begins.

All In The Twinkling Of An Eye

Ok, how does this passage fit into Ah millennial

Matthew 19:27-28 King James Version (KJV)
27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?

28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Will there be any human bones regenerated into a physical living breathing human being?

..

 

[Corban]

You falsely claim in item #5 above that Matthew 25:31-46 is a judgement, with human life on this earth continuing after, in a millennial kingdom on this earth?

Your claim is 100%

The judgement seen is nothing more than a "Parable" of the final great white throne judgement as seen in Rev 20:11-15

As Matthew 25:46 below clearly sees the (Final Eternal Judgement)

Wicked: Everlasting Punishment

Righteous: Eternal Life

Matthew 25:46KJV
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Matthew 25:31-46 is a judgment on "ALL nations". It is judged from "the throne of His glory". It is when He "comes". It concerns what ALL nations did to "the least of His brethren". His "brethren" are (i) the Church, and (ii) Israel.

Revelation 20:11-15 is a judgment on "the dead". It is judged from "the great white throne". It is AFTER He has reigned for a thousand years. It concerns "the works of the dead".

The two judgements are different in every point. The two judgments are 1,000 years apart. Even if you give the 1,000 an allegorical value, the two judgments are separated by this value. In Matthew the LIVING who survived the Great Tribulation are judged. In Revelation the RISEN DEAD are judged, that is, all since Cain.

Matthew 25:46 has a problem that you must explain. In every mention of scripture where men HAVE eternal LIFE, it is by FAITH. In every mention of scripture where men INHERIT, or ENTER into LIFE, it is connected with WORKS. In BOTH these judgements WORKS are judged, but the righteous ENTER LIFE. Since you agree that these judgments are for "the dead", and is by WORKS, how come the Book of Life is present?

 

[Truth7t7]

Ok, how does this passage fit into Ah millennial

Matthew 19:27-28 King James Version (KJV)
27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?

28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Will there be any human bones regenerated into a physical living breathing human being?

..

I believe in the glorified resurrected body, Jesus Christ was the first fruit of the resurrection.

The body of Jesus Christ was Flesh and Bone, no scripture indicates this body had blood or lungs to breathe air?

The Lord's glorified body ate physical earthly food, could walk through closed doors, and disappear from man's sight?

The glorified body won't be (Human) but (Spiritual) and this is a mystery, outside of that seen in the resurrected Jesus Christ?

1 Corinthians 15:44-49KJV
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

 

[Corban]

Once again, you use the "False Claim" that Jesus Christ is going to "Rule With A Rod Of Iron" and suggesting this is interpreted he sits on a throne Ruling?

This claim and suggestion is false, you have been shown that this pertains to Jesus Christ destroying "Man" on earth, as a potter strikes the clay vessels with a "Rod Of Iron" to break it into shivers.

The scripture below clearly teaches that "Man" will be destroyed, as a potter brakes his clay vessels.

Will you continue to teach contrary to the very clear scripture presented?

Revelation 2:27KJV
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.


Revelation 19:15KJV
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Consider TWO things:

1. These verses say that the Lord will break, rule and smite the NATIONS - not individual men. They might indicate that the Lord is harsh, but they DO NOT clearly say that He ANNIHILATES MEN
2. How is it possible to to RULE nations that have been annihilated? To rule them they must still be there!

To this the word "perdition" agrees. Greek scholars all agree. The word "perdition" (which is used interchangeably with Gehenna, The Lake of Fire and Destruction), does NOT means annihilation. It means "lack of well-being" (Vine).

 

[Truth7t7]

Matthew 25:31-46 is a judgment on "ALL nations". It is judged from "the throne of His glory". It is when He "comes". It concerns what ALL nations did to "the least of His brethren". His "brethren" are (i) the Church, and (ii) Israel.

Revelation 20:11-15 is a judgment on "the dead". It is judged from "the great white throne". It is AFTER He has reigned for a thousand years. It concerns "the works of the dead".

The two judgements are different in every point. The two judgments are 1,000 years apart. Even if you give the 1,000 an allegorical value, the two judgments are separated by this value. In Matthew the LIVING who survived the Great Tribulation are judged. In Revelation the RISEN DEAD are judged, that is, all since Cain.

Matthew 25:46 has a problem that you must explain. In every mention of scripture where men HAVE eternal LIFE, it is by FAITH. In every mention of scripture where men INHERIT, or ENTER into LIFE, it is connected with WORKS. In BOTH these judgements WORKS are judged, but the righteous ENTER LIFE. Since you agree that these judgments are for "the dead", and is by WORKS, how come the Book of Life is present?

Matthew 25:46 is the final eternal judgement, there is only one future eternal judgement of all, the book of life will be opened "ONCE"

As previously stated, Matthew 25:31-46 is nothing more than a "Parable" of the Great White Throne Judgement seen in Rev 20:11-15, using Sheep/Goats as the story line for the common man.

Gods words seen in Matthew 25:46 below has no problem whatsoever, it's the false teachings in dispensationalism that are the problem, and those bound by it's web's of deception.

Matthew 25:46KJV
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal

 

[Truth7t7]

Consider TWO things:

1. These verses say that the Lord will break, rule and smite the NATIONS - not individual men. They might indicate that the Lord is harsh, but they DO NOT clearly say that He ANNIHILATES MEN
2. How is it possible to to RULE nations that have been annihilated? To rule them they must still be there!

To this the word "perdition" agrees. Greek scholars all agree. The word "perdition" (which is used interchangeably with Gehenna, The Lake of Fire and Destruction), does NOT means annihilation. It means "lack of well-being" (Vine).

It's amazing how Gods clear words are before your eyes, and you deny that Jesus Christ will destroy man as a potter destroys his vessel's

Then you go even further to deny the Annihilation of man, and state the Lake Of Fire is just a place lacking well being?

It appears your teachings and beliefs are from the cult of Ellen G White's 7th Day Adventism, or that of Charles Taze Russel's Jehovah's Witnesses?

Psalms 2:9KJV
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Revelation 2:27KJV
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Revelation 19:11-15KJV
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

 

[Corban]

All answers we offer are private interpretation of His interpretation. Also called commentaries, opinions, or heresies .

The tools designed to rightly divide the parables below must be used if we are to find faith.

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

The whole book is subject to a signified understanding according to verse 1 of Revelation 1 the understanding is made known though the 2 Corinthian 4:18 key. The things seen the temporal are needed to give the unseen eternal understanding . Without parables Christ spoke not and it includes the last book .

Seal act as signs, torment a sign someone is suffering and a lamb in parables represent our unseen lord.

The difficulty is not in looking at the things seen in that parable (Chapter 20) and finding the gospel meaning by searching and comparing through the whole Bible .Especially in this last book . Having all the examples to be used to compare with, with the 66 books .

The difficulty is when man tries to literalize the metaphors. What they consider the literal translation not using 2 Corinthian 4:18 to mix faith (Hebrews 4:1-4 ). They hear but do not receive the gospel understanding .Faith must be mixed using the tools he has provided.

Hebrews 4 King James Version (KJV) Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

That law of faith must be applied in Revelation 20. faith comes by hearing not seeing.

Revelation 20 King James Version (KJV) And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

Angels have no form .The key is the gospel that binds and loosens the gates of hell. A bottomless pit defines the kind of holding. and a chain the binding power.

Revelation 20 :2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

The dragon or serpent describes the spirit of error same with devil or Satan. Bound a thousand years describes a unknow period . God does not give numbers of days or people to those who walk by faith. Mixing what they see or hear the temporal with the unseen understanding.

The thousand to those who walk by faith the unseen understanding represents a temporal time period . It is used 9 times throughout the bible .The 3 previous times it is used is a witness . to the last usage in the Revelation 20 parable

If we literalize the thousand years in the last 6 occurrences the same must be applied to the previous 3 times.

Psalm 90:4For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

Ecclesiastes 6:6 Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revealtion 20 :3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

How would you describe those metaphors giving examples from other portions of scripture?

OK brother, I appreciate your view. Everything in Revelation is metaphorical. But your question assumes that you have established all things in the Book of Revelation to be "signs" (lit. Gk.). This I cannot answer as I dispute that. But I will give my understanding of the things described in your verses. But first I have a question for you. John 20:30-31 reads;

30 "And many other SIGNS truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."

The word "signs" in verse 30 is "semeion" in the Greek. Now, in John 2:11, "This beginning of SIGNS did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him", the word is again "semeion". So I ask you;

1. did our Lord Jesus really change water into wine, or is the wedding at Cana, the guests, the disciples, the water, the wine, and our Lord Jesus Himself ALL METAPHORS?
2. does the "SIGN" need faith to understand it, or does the SIGN CAUSE FAITH (in John 20:31 above)?

No doubt, you will know by now that the word "SIGNIFIED" in Revelation 1:1 is the verb form of "semeion" - "semaino". That is, if the wedding, guests, disciples, our Lord Jesus, water and wine are real, then we have defined what a "SIGN" is. It is so important that we define a "SIGN" because men gain eternal life from them (in John 20:31 above).

I propose that Revelation is full of SIGNS which display REAL THINGS - just as a literal and real Lord Jesus did a "SIGN" in Galilee which was the literal changing of water into wine at a real wedding in front of real guests and real disciples.

Now to your question:

• "And cast him" - the real act of throwing. Or, what then is a metaphorical "casting"?
• "into the bottomless pit," - a real pit because the Beast, a MAN, came from there. A Real PIT because other angels are already there (2nd Pet.2:4)
• "and shut him up" - a REAL Satan is really shut up in this real PIT,
• "and set a seal upon him" - a real seal as Satan device is real deception (1st Tim.2:14)
• "that he should deceive the nations no more" - real NATIONS. They are before our eyes today
• "till the thousand years should be fulfilled" - real literal 1,000 years because they can be "fulfilled". Or conversely, how do you fulfill a metaphorical number?
• "and after that he must be loosed a little season" - He stirs up a rebellion against Jerusalem. What is a metaphorical "loosed" if it is not literal
• "And I saw thrones" - The saints are rewarded by ruling cities in Luke 19:17.19. Is it a literal ruling or if not what is metaphorical ruling?
• ... and so on. All is literal. The rest of the Bible, when mentioning these things, indicates that they are REAL and LITERAL.

 

[Corban]

Are you a preterist?

I doubt this. He is one who does not believe that God fulfills His councils. All through scripture the RULE of God via men is proclaimed, starting from Genesis 1:26-28 and ending with Revelation 22:5. He does not believe that the Son of MAN will rule this earth despite God saying He will in Psalm 8:4-9.

4 "What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field;
8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.
9 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!"

 

[Corban]

It's amazing how Gods clear words are before your eyes, and you deny that Jesus Christ will destroy man as a potter destroys his vessel's

Then you go even further to deny the Annihilation of man, and state the Lake Of Fire is just a place lacking well being?

It appears your teachings and beliefs are from the cult of Ellen G White's 7th Day Adventism, or that of Charles Taze Russel's Jehovah's Witnesses?

Psalms 2:9KJV
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Revelation 2:27KJV
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Revelation 19:11-15KJV
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

OK brother, we've said our piece and given our proofs. Let's let the interested reader judge.

Go well and God bless you.

 

[Truth7t7]

I doubt this. He is one who does not believe that God fulfills His councils. All through scripture the RULE of God via men is proclaimed, starting from Genesis 1:26-28 and ending with Revelation 22:5. He does not believe that the Son of MAN will rule this earth despite God saying He will in Psalm 8:4-9.

4 "What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field;
8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.
9 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!"

There will be no future Millennial Kingdom on this earth at the return of Jesus Christ

Jesus returns in fire and final judgement, immediately after the tribulation, dissolving the existing heavens and earth by his fire.

How ya gonna have a Millennial Kingdom, on this earth that is "Dissolved"

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[rhern]

There will be no future Millennial Kingdom on this earth at the return of Jesus Christ

Jesus returns in fire and final judgement, immediately after the tribulation, dissolving the existing heavens and earth by his fire.

How ya gonna have a Millennial Kingdom, on this earth that is "Dissolved"

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

These are some of the people who will walk on earth during the 1000 year reign of Christ.

God will open the graves, given breath and they will live:


Thus saith the Lord God;

Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.


Ezekiel 37


5 Thus saith the Lord God unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:

6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

15 The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying,

16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions:

17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.


19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.

23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

28 And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.


...

 

[garee]

OK brother, I appreciate your view. Everything in Revelation is metaphorical. But your question assumes that you have established all things in the Book of Revelation to be "signs" (lit. Gk.). This I cannot answer as I dispute that. But I will give my understanding of the things described in your verses. But first I have a question for you. John 20:30-31 reads;

30 "And many other SIGNS truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."

The word "signs" in verse 30 is "semeion" in the Greek. Now, in John 2:11, "This beginning of SIGNS did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him", the word is again "semeion". So I ask you;

1. did our Lord Jesus really change water into wine, or is the wedding at Cana, the guests, the disciples, the water, the wine, and our Lord Jesus Himself ALL METAPHORS?
2. does the "SIGN" need faith to understand it, or does the SIGN CAUSE FAITH (in John 20:31 above)?

No doubt, you will know by now that the word "SIGNIFIED" in Revelation 1:1 is the verb form of "semeion" - "semaino". That is, if the wedding, guests, disciples, our Lord Jesus, water and wine are real, then we have defined what a "SIGN" is. It is so important that we define a "SIGN" because men gain eternal life from them (in John 20:31 above).

I propose that Revelation is full of SIGNS which display REAL THINGS - just as a literal and real Lord Jesus did a "SIGN" in Galilee which was the literal changing of water into wine at a real wedding in front of real guests and real disciples.

Now to your question:

• "And cast him" - the real act of throwing. Or, what then is a metaphorical "casting"?
• "into the bottomless pit," - a real pit because the Beast, a MAN, came from there. A Real PIT because other angels are already there (2nd Pet.2:4)
• "and shut him up" - a REAL Satan is really shut up in this real PIT,
• "and set a seal upon him" - a real seal as Satan device is real deception (1st Tim.2:14)
• "that he should deceive the nations no more" - real NATIONS. They are before our eyes today
• "till the thousand years should be fulfilled" - real literal 1,000 years because they can be "fulfilled". Or conversely, how do you fulfill a metaphorical number?
• "and after that he must be loosed a little season" - He stirs up a rebellion against Jerusalem. What is a metaphorical "loosed" if it is not literal
• "And I saw thrones" - The saints are rewarded by ruling cities in Luke 19:17.19. Is it a literal ruling or if not what is metaphorical ruling?
• ... and so on. All is literal. The rest of the Bible, when mentioning these things, indicates that they are REAL and LITERAL.

The temporal things are real but they must be mixed with faith when looking for the unseen understanding in parables.

Satan is not a man. He uses mankind to spread his lies as antichrists' many.( legion)

He is a lying spirit that can not be literally bound with chains and there is no such thing as a bottomless pit that again could hold the spirit of lies. Satan is simply restricted for deceiving all the nations as he did before the reformation or called the cross by some .

The metaphor thousand years is used 9 times' in the Bible. Six times in that parable (Revelation 20) .It follows the example used the other three times the word thousand as unknown . We walk by faith not by lying wonders

Psalm 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

Ecclesiastes 6:6 Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

 

[garee]

These are some of the people who will walk on earth during the 1000 year reign of Christ.

God will open the graves, given breath and they will live:


Thus saith the Lord God;

Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.


Ezekiel 37


5 Thus saith the Lord God unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:

6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

15 The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying,

16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions:

17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.


19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.

23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

28 And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.


...

We are in the thousand year reign . I time like never before or ever again .Thousand represents a unknown to what ever is in view .We walk by faith the unseen will .Not after what the eyes see the temporal .

It is a evil generation natural unconverted mankind)that seeks after the thing seen as lying wonders . Why seek after any?

 

[Corban]

The temporal things are real but they must be mixed with faith when looking for the unseen understanding in parables.

Satan is not a man. He uses mankind to spread his lies as antichrists' many.( legion)

He is a lying spirit that can not be literally bound with chains and there is no such thing as a bottomless pit that again could hold the spirit of lies. Satan is simply restricted for deceiving all the nations as he did before the reformation or called the cross by some .

The metaphor thousand years is used 9 times' in the Bible. Six times in that parable (Revelation 20) .It follows the example used the other three times the word thousand as unknown . We walk by faith not by lying wonders

Psalm 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

Ecclesiastes 6:6 Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

While we all enjoy the freedom to write, or not write what we like, it would have been interesting if you had addressed my post and the usage of a "sign" in scripture.

Satan is an angel and thus a spirit. But you have assumed that God cannot chain a spirit. And I would not dismiss what John saw and reported under inspiration. It could be that the chains are metaphorical, but you have no reason to apply this. John saw what he saw and he called it a "great chain". I know you interpret by faith, but faith's first duty is to say that God's Word is what it is. The Holy Spirit could easily have said "a great spiritual rope".

Your assumption that the three mentions of 1,000 years are metaphorical difficult. I would say that based on normal grammar and usage of English (and Greek) that these three MOST POINTEDLY ARE LITERAL.

1. In Psalm 90:4 the word "AS" makes them literal. If they were a metaphor it would read; "For a thousand years in thy sight are but yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night."
2. In Ecclesiastes 6:6 2,000 years is MEANT. The author wants to transmit the huge length of time.
3. Again, in 2nd Peter 3:8, the word "AS" makes it a literal 1,000 years. Not only does Peter, under inspiration, give a number, but if it was NOT a thousand years the statement would be a lie. God would be misleading men.

But there is more. If you make the 1,000 years metaphorical you also reduce the length of Adam's life to a metaphor. Notice that in His reconstruction of the earth in six days, the Holy Spirit is careful to transmit the length of each day - "evening and morning". This is the Hebrew day - sunset to sunset. But just as specific as the six times mentioned "evening and the morning" defines these days, so also is the it glaringly absent on the seventh. But it is not as if NO TIME was given for that first Sabbath. Adam was the last of six creatures made on the sixth day. Thus, his first real day would be the seventh. And God said to him that he would die IN that day he ate of the Tree of knowledge of good and evil. Adam lived 930 years. That would place His death WITHIN the Sabbath, ONLY IF GOD VIEW THE FIRST SABBATH AS 1,000 YEARS!

I will agree that this by itself is not enough to establish that the first Sabbath was counted as 1,000 years, but a second proof of the same is decisive. In Hebrews Chapters 3 and 4, God establishes another Sabbath - a future Sabbath. And He defines this Sabbath by the time of occupancy of Israel in the Good Land. Those who fell in the wilderness did not ENTER His REST (Heb.3:11, 18), and David, who belonged to those who did occupy Canaan, agrees that this REST was not fulfilled. If we measure the time that Israel occupied Canaan, from Joshua crossing Jordan to the Babylonian deportation, we come to a figure of just short of 1,000 years. And so God again must pass on His REST, and cause one future to be established - the Millennium. That is;

1. The first Sabbath REST is defined by Adam's lifespan and he did die IN "that day" at 930 years
2. The next REST was the Israeli occupation of Canaan which lasted just short of 1,000 years (scholars quibble over just a few years)
3. The "future REST" of Hebrews 3 and 4 must be 1,000 years if its context is a previous 1,000 year period. And this one, the MILLENNIUM, is completed and fulfilled because Christ's occupancy of Jerusalem will be FOREVER. The "last Adam" is in place and God can REST because Christ is not moved from the Land by Magog. Thus, the Millennium fulfills God's future REST.

The beauty and accuracy of the Bible and its prophecy is achieved when all is taken literally.

 

[garee]

While we all enjoy the freedom to write, or not write what we like, it would have been interesting if you had addressed my post and the usage of a "sign" in scripture.

Satan is an angel and thus a spirit. But you have assumed that God cannot chain a spirit. And I would not dismiss what John saw and reported under inspiration. It could be that the chains are metaphorical, but you have no reason to apply this. John saw what he saw and he called it a "great chain". I know you interpret by faith, but faith's first duty is to say that God's Word is what it is. The Holy Spirit could easily have said "a great spiritual rope".

Your assumption that the three mentions of 1,000 years are metaphorical difficult. I would say that based on normal grammar and usage of English (and Greek) that these three MOST POINTEDLY ARE LITERAL.

1. In Psalm 90:4 the word "AS" makes them literal. If they were a metaphor it would read; "For a thousand years in thy sight are but yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night."
2. In Ecclesiastes 6:6 2,000 years is MEANT. The author wants to transmit the huge length of time.
3. Again, in 2nd Peter 3:8, the word "AS" makes it a literal 1,000 years. Not only does Peter, under inspiration, give a number, but if it was NOT a thousand years the statement would be a lie. God would be misleading men.

But there is more. If you make the 1,000 years metaphorical you also reduce the length of Adam's life to a metaphor. Notice that in His reconstruction of the earth in six days, the Holy Spirit is careful to transmit the length of each day - "evening and morning". This is the Hebrew day - sunset to sunset. But just as specific as the six times mentioned "evening and the morning" defines these days, so also is the it glaringly absent on the seventh. But it is not as if NO TIME was given for that first Sabbath. Adam was the last of six creatures made on the sixth day. Thus, his first real day would be the seventh. And God said to him that he would die IN that day he ate of the Tree of knowledge of good and evil. Adam lived 930 years. That would place His death WITHIN the Sabbath, ONLY IF GOD VIEW THE FIRST SABBATH AS 1,000 YEARS!

I will agree that this by itself is not enough to establish that the first Sabbath was counted as 1,000 years, but a second proof of the same is decisive. In Hebrews Chapters 3 and 4, God establishes another Sabbath - a future Sabbath. And He defines this Sabbath by the time of occupancy of Israel in the Good Land. Those who fell in the wilderness did not ENTER His REST (Heb.3:11, 18), and David, who belonged to those who did occupy Canaan, agrees that this REST was not fulfilled. If we measure the time that Israel occupied Canaan, from Joshua crossing Jordan to the Babylonian deportation, we come to a figure of just short of 1,000 years. And so God again must pass on His REST, and cause one future to be established - the Millennium. That is;

1. The first Sabbath REST is defined by Adam's lifespan and he did die IN "that day" at 930 years
2. The next REST was the Israeli occupation of Canaan which lasted just short of 1,000 years (scholars quibble over just a few years)
3. The "future REST" of Hebrews 3 and 4 must be 1,000 years if its context is a previous 1,000 year period. And this one, the MILLENNIUM, is completed and fulfilled because Christ's occupancy of Jerusalem will be FOREVER. The "last Adam" is in place and God can REST because Christ is not moved from the Land by Magog. Thus, the Millennium fulfills God's future REST.

The beauty and accuracy of the Bible and its prophecy is achieved when all is taken literally.

taken literally.[/QUOTE]

I see that a little differently. I would offer. The beauty and accuracy of the Bible and its prophecy is achieved when the temporal seen is mixed with faith the unseen eternal

 

[rhern]

We are in the thousand year reign . I time like never before or ever again .Thousand represents a unknown to what ever is in view .We walk by faith the unseen will .Not after what the eyes see the temporal .

It is a evil generation natural unconverted mankind)that seeks after the thing seen as lying wonders . Why seek after any?

You cannot disregard the Old Testament. It is historic, it is there for us to study.

It describes the future in great detail
Do you think God was joking?

I'll be happy to show you passages that apply.

Thank you for your comments.

..