Calvinist Kitchen...stirring the pot

[oyster67]

Now take your hat off and scratch your head.lol...lol.haaaaaa.

There is a good reason that I wear a hat. Don't you be nawty now.

 

[lenna]

Oh, and if we take "all" to mean what someone thinks it means in that text in a post above, the text then means unequivocally Universalism. That's what you get with poor exegesis, a verse out of context, proof texting: Error.

Here is another example of preacher twisting the word. When God says He is willing, He does not say I will MAKE you yet that is what YOU say.

No judgement has come upon “every man” that has ever lived!

Either Jesus died for everyone or not everyone is not under judgement.

what 11th said above does not mean universalism. That hue and cry is another over used Calvinism. No one is stating universalism.

Just you.

That's what you get with poor exegesis, a verse out of context, proof texting: Error.

You should know.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Before the world began, God had all of the names throughout all of history of whom He chose and had them written in His book of life.

Actually, it is the reverse of what you have said.

All names were (are) written in the Book of Life until they were (are) blotted out (or removed) for unbelief, wickedness and rejection of the Gospel. God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Let them [the evildoers] be blotted out* of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous. (Ps 69:28)

*Strong's Concordance
machah: abolish
Original Word: מָחָה
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: machah
Phonetic Spelling: (maw-khaw')
Definition: to wipe, wipe out

Brown-Driver-Briggs
I. מָחָה verb wipe, wipe out (Late Hebrew id.; Arabic

, efface, erase, cancel, obliterate;...

 

[lenna]

That's what you get with poor exegesis, a verse out of context, proof texting: Error.

For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

1. The Pharaoh scenario has been covered more than once in this thread and in others as well. Pharaoh's heart was hardened but it was the heart he already had. No scripture indicates God made Pharaoh into a despot. He was already a despot.

2. Willeth meaning a person cannot will their salvation or cause God to bestow it and runneth meaning you cannot attain it through works.

showeth mercy? meaning we can do nothing to obtain that mercy other than receive what God is giving to those who respond

poor exegesis is well explained in your original post

you're welcome

 

[EleventhHour]

Here is another example of preacher twisting the word. When God says He is willing, He does not say I will MAKE you yet that is what YOU say.



what 11th said above does not mean universalism. That hue and cry is another over used Calvinism. No one is stating universalism.

Just you.

Umm can you explain what he meant... how does therefore change anything?

 

[lenna]

Any purpose to this post other than to sow division?

I think it is more like trying to discredit me, but to my ears it sounds more like desperation.

 

[oldethennew]

finding out who we are and how we interpret things as opposed to the way that the world
would view us as us and our thinking,- wow, what a deep valley to cross over!!???
how many of us are willing to go there???
it's a very great challenge!!!...
actually, hub and I think that the only way to get a 'leg-up', is through Christ's Loving Heart/Calling...
just our opinion from decades of living out of His Will/Words, and then living in' His Will/Words...

 

[Ahwatukee]

The view expressed is that God deliberately creates human beings to join the devil and his angels in the lake of fire. Scripture states no such thing and in fact God declares the lake of fire was NOT created for humans, but sadly those who reject Him will find themselves in that place.

Hello Lenna!

Actually, though scripture states that everlasting fire (lake of fire) was created for Satan and his angels, the wicked will also end up in the same place. Below is an example regarding the sheep and the goats:

"Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

And the verse below is in reference to all of the unrighteous dead throughout all of history who are resurrected out of Hades after the millennial kingdom and at the great white throne judgment.

"And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

Regarding the rest, you are correct in that God does not take pleasure in the destruction of the wicked, but unless they act on His plan of salvation through faith in His Son, eternal punishment in the lake of fire is where they will end up.

 

[EleventhHour]

Here is another example of preacher twisting the word. When God says He is willing, He does not say I will MAKE you yet that is what YOU say.



what 11th said above does not mean universalism. That hue and cry is another over used Calvinism. No one is stating universalism.

Just you.

Agree...

And obviously the it is clear that the gift is available to all, but not necessarily received.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Well let's see the scripture to support that conclusion. You write 'must be', not 'is', which indicates you have formed an opinion



I do believe God does know or knew beforehand who would accept Christ, but that is because God exists outside of time and there is no beginning and no end to Him. That, actually IS in the Bible, but drawing the conclusion that God created some people to throw into the lake of fire as Calvinists state, is NOT in the Bible.

I see that you are not comprehending this. God did not create people to throw into the lake of fire. So, get that response out of your head. That said, neither did God interfere with man's free will. They will go into the lake of fire simply because they have sinned. As I said in the earlier post, no one is entitled to salvation. If God wanted to, He would be righteous in letting everyone go into the lake of fire and that because all have sinned. However, because God loved the world (those whom He chose to save) He provided a way of salvation for them through His Son. Jesus became a human being so that He could represent us, as a human being without sin, One who met the righteous requirements of the law and One who took God's wrath upon himself on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely. Those whom He did not chose for salvation from before the world began will simply be punished because of their sins.

I disagree that God will not draw some as the Bible states whosoever will may come, He is not willing that any should perish, (which definitely throws out that Calvinistic belief that some are created for the lake of fire). Drawing the conclusion that God 'rests His case' and ignores some people is making a double jeopardy scenario, in which a person is on trial, the jury has reached its decision, a guilty verdict has been rendered and the sentence of death meted out while the defendant is still getting dressed for court.

Regardless of what you believe, scriptures states that God wrote the names of those whom He chose to save in His book from out of all of history. Likewise, there were some that He didn't write in His book. You still haven't given an explanation of Revelation 17:8.

I agree that filing people under a certain name is not the way to go, but when they offer to do so for you, and are happy about it, I say believe them.

I disagree that executing the conclusion that God is a fan of Calvinism is the right conclusion.

God is not carrying out Calvinism. He is carrying out His own word.

 

[lenna]

Umm can you explain what he meant... how does therefore change anything?

Sure.

First of all, the word 'therefore' indicates a conclusion on the foregoing. For example chapter 5 actually begins with the word therefore, meaning what comes after that is the conclusion of what went before in chapter 4. Like this:

end of chp 4, v 25 '25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

chp 5 starts with the word THEREFORE, meaning BECAUSE of v25, we can conclude the following , cph 5

(sorry it took so long, I had to take care of something)

If that isn't clear or I misunderstood, let me know

 

[preacher4truth]

Actually, it is the reverse of what you have said.

All names were (are) written in the Book of Life until they were (are) blotted out (or removed) for unbelief, wickedness and rejection of the Gospel. God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Let them [the evildoers] be blotted out* of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous. (Ps 69:28)

*Strong's Concordance
machah: abolish
Original Word: מָחָה
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: machah
Phonetic Spelling: (maw-khaw')
Definition: to wipe, wipe out

Brown-Driver-Briggs
I. מָחָה verb wipe, wipe out (Late Hebrew id.; Arabic

, efface, erase, cancel, obliterate;...

Hmm. So God who possesses all knowledge had to white out some names in a book He got wrong. It needed a bit of editing, he wasn't sure who would be chosen and who wouldn't.

He then doesn't do all things perfectly.

You may need to rethink that.

It is figurative language making a point, it isn't God editing the Book of Life.

 

[oldethennew]

EH,
WOW, what an 'understatement'...

 

[EleventhHour]

Sure.

First of all, the word 'therefore' indicates a conclusion on the foregoing. For example chapter 5 actually begins with the word therefore, meaning what comes after that is the conclusion of what went before in chapter 4. Like this:

end of chp 4, v 25 '25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

chp 5 starts with the word THEREFORE, meaning BECAUSE of v25, we can conclude the following , cph 5

(sorry it took so long, I had to take care of something)

If that isn't clear or I misunderstood, let me know

Thanks .. so not any different then the typical "therefore" used in everyday life...

I thought he had a super, duper, special, ultra profound meaning I was missing.

 

[lenna]

Actually, though scripture states that everlasting fire (lake of fire) was created for Satan and his angels, the wicked will also end up in the same place. Below is an example regarding the sheep and the goats

Regarding the rest, you are correct in that God does not take pleasure in the destruction of the wicked, but unless they act on His plan of salvation through faith in His Son, eternal punishment in the lake of fire is where they will end up.

Thank you. I have made that exact point many times. Glad you see that also.

I see that you are not comprehending this. God did not create people to throw into the lake of fire. So, get that response out of your head.

It's not in my head. You have me confused with someone else.

God is not carrying out Calvinism. He is carrying out His own word.

Correct. God is not carrying out Calvinism. He does carry out His word, but without the slant Calvinism gives it. So call it what you will, but if you see the Bible through the lens of Calvinism, then you are agreeing with them.

.

 

[lenna]

Thanks .. so not any different then the typical "therefore" used in everyday life...

I thought he had a super, duper, special, ultra profound meaning I was missing.

nah.

preacher seems to be a legend in his own mind

He still cannot answer properly and resorts to mocking and laughing. I mean no one could say more than he says about himself.

It's not just a question of what a person believes, but the way they respond to others. I don't agree with all Ahwatukee says, but the man is polite enough to be able to engage him. That's a debate.

 

[oyster67]

Hmm. So God who possesses all knowledge had to white out some names in a book He got wrong. It needed a bit of editing, he wasn't sure who would be chosen and who wouldn't.

He then doesn't do all things perfectly.

You may need to rethink that.

It is figurative language making a point, it isn't God editing the Book of Life.

Having one's name blotted out simply mean you are not going to Heaven. Nothing complex about this. We do choke on gnats, don't we.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Actually, it is the reverse of what you have said.

All names were (are) written in the Book of Life until they were (are) blotted out (or removed) for unbelief, wickedness and rejection of the Gospel. God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

I don't believe that Nehemiah! That is a false teaching that was brought in-part by Tim Lahaye. Rev.13:8 and 17:8 make it very clear that there were names that were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world. By stating this, the scripture also infers that there were names written in His book before the world began. Therefore, the idea of every persons name being written and then blotted out throughout history is not supported. The fact that it states that names were never even written before the world began, would do away with that idea.

 

[oldethennew]

nah.

preacher seems to be a legend in his own mind

He still cannot answer properly and resorts to mocking and laughing. I mean no one could say more than he says about himself.

It's not just a question of what a person believes, but the way they respond to others. I don't agree with all Ahwatukee says, but the man is polite enough to be able to engage him. That's a debate.

======================
really, it's not a 'debate, not ever, he is, well, although we Love him, he is (outside of Christ's reality), at least
this is our opinion...

 

[oyster67]

He then doesn't do all things perfectly.

You may need to rethink that.

He doeth all things well. !!. No need to rethink anything !!!!, PTL!