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Calvinist Kitchen...stirring the pot
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EleventhHour
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I took mine away even though the post was directed towards me personally and not about content.
I am movin on...
Can one of y’all tell me how you deal with the issue of free will doctrines being labeled heresy throughout history, as well as the fact that all major denominations have clearly confessed adherence to the doctrine of election in their confessions?
Not stirring the pot here, I’m sincerely asking.
Not stirring the pot here, I’m sincerely asking.
Heresy is heresy. Doesn't matter how many have been duped or how long it has been around. What matters is how God will deal with it: Very harshly.
People have made the argument that God hates those who are not elect, there was a thread on it recently by someone who is now banned; such a belief is at the core of the Calvinist argument: that God loving the world does not apply to those who will never believe... so I am wondering what you think was wrongly stated in the post to which you responded here?
What is being maligned? The argument constantly put forward is that God does not love those who will not be saved.
See? Here we have it: the statement that God hates those who comprise the nation of unbelievers. @PennEd
Though in truth nations are comprised of individual people, and in the final analysis, there are only two types: the lost and the saved... so I am not sure what this post is really trying to say, especially given the fact that Scripture identifies Jacob and Esau as two nations.
Seems like all kinds of games in here with Scripture and the things people are quoted as saying. Then there is the adding to what people have said, not quoting their actual words, but adding to their actual words.
Denial, eisegesis, truncated gospels, the idols of free will and choosing, hostility toward the justice of God, hostility toward the sovereignty of God are some of the issues here that are of grave importance. Said reactions are toward the person of God himself (not those who bring the message so much) since when His "undesirable" attributes are discussed that is the feedback received.
If God is "thus and so" (doesn't give everyone a chance to vote themselves into heaven) then stating "he isn't my god" is a serious matter, and a frightening assertion. Couple that with saying these teachings are "hellish" "trash" "satanic" "cultic" then the severity of the issue becomes more pressing.
I think some may want to give pause to these types of emotional rants and accusations. These are based out of an apparent unfamiliarity and hostility to the truth.
If the God presented is all that several of us have shown via scripture, and some react this way toward Him, it, in my opinion, borders on blasphemy.
Some haven't read much in Scripture about God according to things stated on here and according to polls on the subject. Ligonier had a poll out not too long ago, and it sadly proved theological ineptness runs deep within the church.
Many cannot stomach the aforementioned things due to a truncated version of His person being propagated via a truncated gospel preached in churches.
I recommend people read The Attributes of God. (well for those who still study what they believe and don't already know it all, and who can learn from men as well).
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EleventhHour
Guest
I am realizing that in order for system of Calvinism to work word meanings, have to be changed so let's change words in the Gospel and see how it works out.
In Calvinism "world" means "elect" so ...
John 15:18-19 says:
If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
Using the Calvinist method of changing the word “world” as they do in John 3:16 so that it means elect, John 15:18-19 now must read:
If the elect hate you, who are the elect, ye know that the elect hated me before the elect hated you who are elect. If ye elect were of the elect, the elect would love his own elect: but because ye elect are not of the elect, but I have chosen you elect out of the elect, therefore the elect hateth you elect who are elect.
Words are redefined on an "as needed basis" to support the doctrine.
In Calvinism "world" means "elect" so ...
John 15:18-19 says:
If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
Using the Calvinist method of changing the word “world” as they do in John 3:16 so that it means elect, John 15:18-19 now must read:
If the elect hate you, who are the elect, ye know that the elect hated me before the elect hated you who are elect. If ye elect were of the elect, the elect would love his own elect: but because ye elect are not of the elect, but I have chosen you elect out of the elect, therefore the elect hateth you elect who are elect.
Words are redefined on an "as needed basis" to support the doctrine.
I took mine away as well. I might’ve missed one or two lol.
I’m sorry if you felt singled out.
For contextual purposes I’ll post how That came to be:
EH said
And then they get defensive when we state Calvinism is from the pit of Hell.
EH then said, addressed to me:
God hates those who are not saved, you believe that?
I said:
I believe you are putting words in people’s mouths and assigning motives, making accusations, and drawing conclusions on things not said.
I don’t think what you’re doing is right or Christlike.
So again, I’m sorry for saying that. I have truly tried to get people to see that neither side compromises the Gospel unto Salvation, and neither side, ALTHOUGH THEY THINK THEY DO, have this incredibly difficult issue exactly right.
But we shouldn’t be casting dispersions on one another because both sides believe in the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Calvinism casts dispersions of hopelessness upon the unsaved world. Do you think that to be a small thing?
Is everyone wrong, then, in your view? Nobody understands the gospel well enough to articulate it properly, or, in your own words, exactly right? I think the gospel message is simple enough that even children can grasp it. How incredibly difficult do you think it really is?
Well, I tried!
Jesus has a little something to say about the unveiling, unsaved:
John 3:18 New King James Version (NKJV)
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
ALREADY !
I’m hoping that someone has studied the history and dealt with this topic prayerfully. Is there anyone like that here, anyone who knows the roots of their beliefs?
Again, I’m not stirring the pot. I’d just like to have a cicvil conversation.
Please stop twisting my words.
The issue no one has exactly right is predestination vs free will.
I specifically said each side has the Gospel unto Salvation correct .
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EleventhHour
Guest
And I was quoting @oyster67
Fair enough and I myself do try to stick to the topic, however posts do get to me too that are so contrary to scripture ... I will however continue to defend the character and essence of God who proclaimed "He is Love"
While yes we agree on the death, burial and Resurrection, no sect, religion, denomination should be defaming the character of God and His Revelation to us about Himself.
Being able to meme doesn't mean you're theologically correct or even having an argument. Both Arminianism and Calvinism miss the mark, the Word cannot be pit fighting one verse against the other so all such arguments that propose to say "touche!" with one verse against another verse are meaningless.
Calvinism got it wrong.
Arminianism got it wrong.
Something is lost in all the fighting. That something is admitting that sometimes we cannot figure out 100% how the seemingly opposing Scriptures work together. And neither group has provided a satisfying explanation so far, they just push their chosen clusters of verses for centuries. Either proposition causes contradictions and problems when applied alone. In that situation, I choose to trust God unconditionally and every verse written, rather than claim I know it all, but hey, to each their own.
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