Not By Works

[Magenta]

I started this current discussion with a posting to support blue lake's comment about truth. It was not directed to you in the first place.

You replied to that posting, to ask me various questions about my point.

I reply to your questions out of respect for you.

If you feel those replies are not agreeable in your point of view, you are free to disagree and we can move on. There is no need to express sadness for me here. I am fine no matter how you feel.

I also commented on the post you refuse to move forward from even though conversations generally move forward; you will not make an allowance for that. Why mention that it was not meant for me in the first place? Do you not understand how discussion forums work? I do not need a specific invite from you to comment on anything you've said. If you recall I pointed out the error in the post. Do you recognize error? It seems my posts are disagreeable to you, but here you are once again pretending it is all about my point of view when you have said what others do is none of your business. Of course I also recognized that statement of yours for what it was also.

 

[GrimmBro3]

Haha - just seeing how my response is not in line with where the discussion is at, at this point. I reckon if I'm going to inject myself in the party, I should say that I'm an evangelistic, missions loving, 5 point calvinist. Does that make me relevant to the discussion, where it's at, at this point?

I'm new to CC but not new to the faith. It's unfortunate that this is the general direction such discussions go in - such divisive and heated disagreement. One side must absolutely be wrong, and it can't be the side we're on - and the best way to convince them is to rip them apart verbally. Is this the way of our Lord?

Some say, "I am of Paul, others I am of Apollos, and still some say, I am of Jesus!" When we should say, "we are of one another, one body of Christ - showing the world the love of Christ, in spite of our differences, yes, even theological differences, to His glory.

Of course, there are some non-negotiable differences. But I don't think Calvinism / Arminianism is where we split the body of Christ - unfortunately it is, in fact. But it shouldn't be.

While our daggers are raised against each other... the lost look on and wonder why they'd want to join in on such heated arguments. We're missing the war for skirmishes. And I say that as an RC Sproul / John Gerstner type Calvinist.

 

[dcontroversal]

Haha - just seeing how my response is not in line with where the discussion is at, at this point. I reckon if I'm going to inject myself in the party, I should say that I'm an evangelistic, missions loving, 5 point calvinist. Does that make me relevant to the discussion, where it's at, at this point?

I'm new to CC but not new to the faith. It's unfortunate that this is the general direction such discussions go in - such divisive and heated disagreement. One side must absolutely be wrong, and it can't be the side we're on - and the best way to convince them is to rip them apart verbally. Is this the way of our Lord?

Some say, "I am of Paul, others I am of Apollos, and still some say, I am of Jesus!" When we should say, "we are of one another, one body of Christ - showing the world the love of Christ, in spite of our differences, yes, even theological differences, to His glory.

Of course, there are some non-negotiable differences. But I don't think Calvinism / Arminianism is where we split the body of Christ - unfortunately it is, in fact. But it shouldn't be.

While our daggers are raised against each other... the lost look on and wonder why they'd want to join in on such heated arguments. We're missing the war for skirmishes. And I say that as an RC Sproul / John Gerstner type Calvinist.

I am a bible believing Servant...and I suppose you believe the Lord's churches had it wrong until an ex Catholic named Calvin came along and coined his 5 point Flower dogma? Of the which at least three are false and contrary to scripture.

Your verbiage and manners seem very familiar.....have you ever been here before?

 

[EleventhHour]

No, we are not saved because of our works; and yet, we are not saved if there are no works to follow that great miracle of new birth in Christ.

Works do not save BUT no works no salvation.

Seems contradictory to me?

So works do indeed save, since without them one cannot be saved.

Yet, we are saved by grace through faith apart from works.

 

[dcontroversal]

Works do not save BUT no works no salvation.

Seems contradictory to me?

So works do indeed save, since without them one cannot be saved.

Yet, we are saved by grace through faith apart from works.

It blows my mind how many disregard scripture and nature to peddle what you addressed....

The works of wood, hay and stubble

The Corinthian fornicator called a brother and member of a N.T. Church

The growth and maturity required to produce

Trees with both good and bad fruit

Trees that take 20 to 25 years to produce

An apple tree is an apple tree from the moment it sprouts and yet takes years to produce even 1 piece of fruit...

Etc.....the misapplication of thw fruit if false teachers being applied to the fruits of the spirit

etc. and on and on and on....

 

[GrimmBro3]

I can assure you this is my first day on the forums. I've never even heard of Christian Chat prior. I'm sure the admins can check the IP address my account is responding from and compare it with previously banned or active accounts if they need to confirm.

I don't doubt that you are a Bible believing Servant, as you say. As am I. The followers of Calvin's teaching produced the 5 points, also known as TULIP, at the Synod of Dort, in response to Arminians that they saw as straying from the truths of Scripture.

Limited Atonement
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints

I hold these truths to be precious and emboldening for me in the sharing of the gospel. I'd be glad to interact with you further on them, if you'd like. Perhaps we can encourage each other with mutually beneficial discussions on the subject.

 

[EleventhHour]

It blows my mind how many disregard scripture and nature to peddle what you addressed....

The works of wood, hay and stubble

The Corinthian fornicator called a brother and member of a N.T. Church

The growth and maturity required to produce

Trees with both good and bad fruit

Trees that take 20 to 25 years to produce

An apple tree is an apple tree from the moment it sprouts and yet takes years to produce even 1 piece of fruit...

Etc.....the misapplication of thw fruit if false teachers being applied to the fruits of the spirit

etc. and on and on and on....

Agree, another tragic part of the dogma.

 

[dcontroversal]

I can assure you this is my first day on the forums. I've never even heard of Christian Chat prior. I'm sure the admins can check the IP address my account is responding from and compare it with previously banned or active accounts if they need to confirm.

I don't doubt that you are a Bible believing Servant, as you say. As am I. The followers of Calvin's teaching produced the 5 points, also known as TULIP, at the Synod of Dort, in response to Arminians that they saw as straying from the truths of Scripture.

Limited Atonement
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints

I hold these truths to be precious and emboldening for me in the sharing of the gospel. I'd be glad to interact with you further on them, if you'd like. Perhaps we can encourage each other with mutually beneficial discussions on the subject.

Yeah....not saying you are, but the last guy basically said the same thing....and no offence, but I have had this dance many times with Calvin followers and they, without exception, are not open to the truth, believe in their mind they are never wrong, refuse to acknowledge truth that contradicts their hard fast Calvinistic dogma and like normal, refuse to answer the question...

Did the Lord's churches have it wrong for 1500 plus years until AN EX CATHOLIC came on the scene with HIS DOGMA that you now hold as truth and peddle as truth?

 

[GrimmBro3]

Works do not save BUT no works no salvation.

Seems contradictory to me?

So works do indeed save, since without them one cannot be saved.

Yet, we are saved by grace through faith apart from works.

I submit 1 John 2:4-6 for your consideration, and really the whole book of 1 John centers on how we can know we are Christians:

"And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked."

 

[EleventhHour]

I submit 1 John 2:4-6 for your consideration, and really the whole book of 1 John centers on how we can know we are Christians:

"And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked."

I refer you to this post.

https://christianchat.com/threads/not-by-works.146296/post-4313193

People that I have known the have left this "school of thought" have done so because of your above comment.

It is a terrible thing when people are told that the assurance of salvation comes from within themselves and their behavior, such a weight to carry, produces fear and anxiety.
It is the promises of Jesus that assures of our salvation and the witness of the Holy Spirit to our spirit.

And with regards to works proving salvation, Paul and Silas did not say that they were going to watch the jailer and his family to make sure that they were truly saved.

 

[GrimmBro3]

Yeah....not saying you are, but the last guy basically said the same thing....and no offence, but I have had this dance many times with Calvin followers and they, without exception, are not open to the truth, believe in their mind they are never wrong, refuse to acknowledge truth that contradicts their hard fast Calvinistic dogma and like normal, refuse to answer the question...

First, let me say, you seem very zealous for the truth, and I appreciate that about you. You began this thread over 7,300 posts ago, and you're still very active. Without flattery, I really commend you for that. I hope we can get to know each other more here in CC.

I'm not surprised that you receive the same answers from our Calvinistic brothers if the same questions are posed over and over again to them. Am I convinced of the truths that I hold precious in my faith? Absolutely. Do I believe I could be wrong - sure. I by no means have the corner on truth, and I'm always willing to interact and discuss anything I hold as true.

As a father of 6, a full timer at my place of employment, a serving member at my church, and a seminary student, I am going to be very busy. But I'll do my best to answer the questions you pose in a respectful manner. Like you, I love the truth, and I am eager to dialogue on it.

Did the Lord's churches have it wrong for 1500 plus years until AN EX CATHOLIC came on the scene with HIS DOGMA that you now hold as truth and peddle as truth?

Here I must claim ignorance on something. It'd help me if I knew what background you're coming from. Are you saying that the Roman Catholic Church was correct for those 1500 years, before Luther? Or are you simply claiming that for those 1500 years Calvinists today sees the church in error because they didn't have a system of Calvinism?

I would say this - any student of church history knows that the church had a lot of growing to do in its infancy. I don't think anyone would say that the church was absolutely 100% accurate on everything it believed for those 1500 years. In fact, there were a lot of foibles along the way - but over time they grew in their understanding of the truth - and I think the canonization of Scripture had a lot to do with that, around the time of Athanasius and Marcion. There were also church counsels that were very instrumental in the development of doctrine.

I have some great resources for church history that I can make available to you, if interested.

So - I don't claim the corner on truth. I submit that I can learn from you, and I believe I have something to bring to the table, also, that can challenge and encourage you - if we're able to have a civil discussion. Blessings, brother.

 

[dcontroversal]

I refer you to this post.

https://christianchat.com/threads/not-by-works.146296/post-4313193

People that I have known the have left this "school of thought" have done so because of your above comment.

It is a terrible thing when people are told that the assurance of salvation comes from within themselves and their behavior, such a weight to carry, produces fear and anxiety.
It is the promises of Jesus that assures of our salvation and the witness of the Holy Spirit to our spirit.

And with regards to works proving salvation, Paul and Silas did not say that they were going to watch the jailer and his family to make sure that they were truly saved.

Amen.....I know in whom I have believed and am fully pursuaded that he is able to KEEP that which I have committed unto him against that day.

 

[Micaiah-imla]

First, let me say, you seem very zealous for the truth, and I appreciate that about you.

Wow, that was fast.

It took me a little while to see this in @dcontroversal

He's definitely the Champion of OSAS here; for sure.

 

[GrimmBro3]

Amen.....I know in whom I have believed and am fully pursuaded that he is able to KEEP that which I have committed u to him against that day.

I also add my amen - and submit the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints as my framework for doing so. We do not persevere because it is us working to - but Him working in us to keep us, so that no matter how much we may sin, we may never truly fall away - but must in the end persevere, if we are saved. Because we are saved.

1 John 2:1-3 "My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments."

 

[Guojing]

Amen. We do not the works of righteousness in order that they should save us, but the works of righteousness are the natural fruit from the one who has been saved. How can it be that we should have the triune God indwelling us and see no evidence of His presence in our lives? It's not only oxymoronic - but I submit to you impossible.

No, we are not saved because of our works; and yet, we are not saved if there are no works to follow that great miracle of new birth in Christ.

So you are saying works is not sufficient to save us, but works are necessary if we are to stay saved?

Like saying oxygen alone is not sufficient to result in a fire, but if there is no oxygen, the fire will be gone?

 

[Guojing]

I also commented on the post you refuse to move forward from even though conversations generally move forward; you will not make an allowance for that. Why mention that it was not meant for me in the first place? Do you not understand how discussion forums work? I do not need a specific invite from you to comment on anything you've said. If you recall I pointed out the error in the post. Do you recognize error? It seems my posts are disagreeable to you, but here you are once again pretending it is all about my point of view when you have said what others do is none of your business. Of course I also recognized that statement of yours for what it was also.

I don't agree with you that it is an error. But if you insist it is, I am fine too.

Let's move on.

 

[GrimmBro3]

So you are saying works is not sufficient to save us, but works are necessary if we are to stay saved?

Like saying oxygen alone is not sufficient to result in a fire, but if there is no oxygen, the fire will be gone?

Good question!

We do not keep ourselves saved, no. That is a work of the Holy Spirit - who keeps us sealed until the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30).

I think a better analogy would be if fire is present, there will be heat. If there's no heat, it's because there's no fire. If there's no work, no change, no righteousness, it's because there's no faith. James 2.

I feel it necessary to add that family duties call. I look forward to our continued discussion when I can log back on! Blessings.

 

[Guojing]

Good question!

We do not keep ourselves saved, no. That is a work of the Holy Spirit - who keeps us sealed until the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30).

I think a better analogy would be if fire is present, there will be heat. If there's no heat, it's because there's no fire. If there's no work, no change, no righteousness, it's because there's no faith. James 2.

So your definition of a fire includes heat correct? Likewise, your definition of faith also includes works?

 

[dcontroversal]

First, let me say, you seem very zealous for the truth, and I appreciate that about you. You began this thread over 7,300 posts ago, and you're still very active. Without flattery, I really commend you for that. I hope we can get to know each other more here in CC.

I'm not surprised that you receive the same answers from our Calvinistic brothers if the same questions are posed over and over again to them. Am I convinced of the truths that I hold precious in my faith? Absolutely. Do I believe I could be wrong - sure. I by no means have the corner on truth, and I'm always willing to interact and discuss anything I hold as true.

As a father of 6, a full timer at my place of employment, a serving member at my church, and a seminary student, I am going to be very busy. But I'll do my best to answer the questions you pose in a respectful manner. Like you, I love the truth, and I am eager to dialogue on it.



Here I must claim ignorance on something. It'd help me if I knew what background you're coming from. Are you saying that the Roman Catholic Church was correct for those 1500 years, before Luther? Or are you simply claiming that for those 1500 years Calvinists today sees the church in error because they didn't have a system of Calvinism?

I would say this - any student of church history knows that the church had a lot of growing to do in its infancy. I don't think anyone would say that the church was absolutely 100% accurate on everything it believed for those 1500 years. In fact, there were a lot of foibles along the way - but over time they grew in their understanding of the truth - and I think the canonization of Scripture had a lot to do with that, around the time of Athanasius and Marcion. There were also church counsels that were very instrumental in the development of doctrine.

I have some great resources for church history that I can make available to you, if interested.

So - I don't claim the corner on truth. I submit that I can learn from you, and I believe I have something to bring to the table, also, that can challenge and encourage you - if we're able to have a civil discussion. Blessings, brother.

As far as church history goes I studied it in seminary myself in 1992 and 1993...4 semester hours per semester, for 2 years out of the 4 I went. I will say, I do not buy that that the churches had it wrong and had to be corrected by Calvin in the 1500's, as a matter of fact, they had the completed word of God by 90-95 A.D. with the final book of Revelation being penned by John. The churches passed the letters around, and at least two of the seven churches in Asia alone were commended by God.

No.....the Catholic church, which has never been a valid church and did not have it's origin in the 1st century has never been right, nor did it take a man that came out of the Catholic church (Calvin) to set the Lord's churches straight. The LORD promised the perpetuity of his churches, he started the 1st church (identified and called the church no less than two times in the present tense during his ministry) and it is absurd to believe that they were wrong in their application of truth for some 1500 years.

Calvinism at it's roots teaches that man has no choice in the matter and that God made man A to be saved and man b thru z to burn in hell. My bible does not teach that...it teaches choice thru and thru.....

Calvinism teaches that Christ only loves and died for the saved....My bible does not teach that....It clearly states he loves all, died for all, but will only receive those that come dia faith.

Calvinism teaches some distorted view of grace that is irresistible....my bible does not teach this....it is clearly resisitible based upon numerous passages.

At the end of the day, and no offence meant as you seem genuine and decent enough, Calvinism at it's core is no different than any other religious twist of the truth....it is akin to to Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, 7th Day Adventists and others....devised, coined, pushed by a human being as truth. I have looked at it's core teaching, I cannot make it jive with what I have studied intently for the last 33 years....my view on the predestined aspect of the bible is as follows....

God simply predetermined before he cast down the world that ALL who come to him through his Son dia faith will be chosen and conformed to the image of his Son Jesus. He testifies to ALL dia creation and the invisible, his Son paid the son debt of the WORLD out of his LOVE OF THE KOSMOS (WHOLE order of things) and he would have ALL MEN repent, come to the knowledge of the truth and be saved.....

Be not removed from the simplicity found in Christ!

 

[dcontroversal]

Wow, that was fast.

It took me a little while to see this in @dcontroversal

He's definitely the Champion of OSAS here; for sure.

If salvation rested upon the backs of human beings I would not be so adament. However....my bible teaches it is all Christ and he will absolutely finish the good work of faith he begins in every human being on the planet. HE IS God and he does not fail.....He will finish what HE STARTED.

After almost 33 years of intensive study, no one will ever convince me that salvation can be lost or forfeit because the SPIRIT IS BORN OF INCORRUPTIBLE seed and that GIFT is irrevocably given by the faith he begins and finishes in us....WE ARE KEPT by his power and our life is HIDDEN WITHIN HIS.

Seriously ponder what I just said and the simple truth....it is ALL the work of CHRIST AND HE MUST FAIL for us to lose or forfeit salvation.