The absurdity and heresy of Preterism
- Thread starter Nehemiah6
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Agreed on the bodily resurrection. No such thing. That's why I believe Matthew is recording a mass resuscitation and not a resurrection. My wife tends to support your view though and we debate this all the time. Since earth bodies don't rise after 4 days, why would they here?
I had almost forgotten about that Jude passage, but always saw them as the 144K that were martyred, beheaded per Rev 20, from the beginning of Christ's ministry until His return. There weren't any martyrs of Christ before the Cross with the exception of maybe JTB. See, I believe 1 Thes 4 is stating that God the Father is bringing those who sleep in Jesus back to heaven and they accompanied Christ when He returned after the tribulation of those days. You will recall, Christ is to sit at the right hand until the Lord has made His enemies His footstool. His "enemies" clearly were the Jewish religious order which had Him killed. You will recall also that they hid themselves from "the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!" Thus I think both Father and Son were present during the 66-70 AD time period.
I had almost forgotten about that Jude passage, but always saw them as the 144K that were martyred, beheaded per Rev 20, from the beginning of Christ's ministry until His return. There weren't any martyrs of Christ before the Cross with the exception of maybe JTB. See, I believe 1 Thes 4 is stating that God the Father is bringing those who sleep in Jesus back to heaven and they accompanied Christ when He returned after the tribulation of those days. You will recall, Christ is to sit at the right hand until the Lord has made His enemies His footstool. His "enemies" clearly were the Jewish religious order which had Him killed. You will recall also that they hid themselves from "the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!" Thus I think both Father and Son were present during the 66-70 AD time period.
[continued from previous post]
32 This is what the LORD of Hosts says:
“Behold! Disaster is spreading
from nation to nation;
a mighty storm is rising
from the ends of the earth.”
33 Those slain by the LORD on that day will be spread from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be mourned, gathered, or buried. They will be like dung lying on the ground.
The Cry of the Shepherds
34 Wail, you shepherds, and cry out;
roll in the dust, you leaders of the flock.
For the days of your slaughter have come;
you will fall and be shattered like fine pottery.f
35 Flight will evade the shepherds,
and escape will elude the leaders of the flock.
36 Hear the cry of the shepherds,
the wailing of the leaders of the flock,
for the LORD is destroying their pasture.
37 The peaceful meadows have been silenced
because of the LORD’s burning anger.
38 He has left His den like a lion,
for their land has been made a desolation
by the swordg of the oppressor,
and because of the fierce anger of the LORD.
Footnotes:
3 a Literally I have spoken to you, rising up early and speaking,
4 b Literally to you, rising up early and sending (them),
9 c Forms of the Hebrew cherem refer to the giving over of things or persons, either by destroying them or by giving them as an offering.
12 d That is, the Babylonians
26 e Sheshach is a code name for Babylon.
34 f Hebrew; LXX you will fall like the best of the rams
38 g Some Hebrew manuscripts and LXX (see also Jeremiah 46:16 and Jeremiah 50:16); most Hebrew manuscripts anger
https://biblehub.com/bsb/jeremiah/25.htm
[end quoting; bold and underline mine except for the Headings
]
32 This is what the LORD of Hosts says:
“Behold! Disaster is spreading
from nation to nation;
a mighty storm is rising
from the ends of the earth.”
33 Those slain by the LORD on that day will be spread from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be mourned, gathered, or buried. They will be like dung lying on the ground.
The Cry of the Shepherds
34 Wail, you shepherds, and cry out;
roll in the dust, you leaders of the flock.
For the days of your slaughter have come;
you will fall and be shattered like fine pottery.f
35 Flight will evade the shepherds,
and escape will elude the leaders of the flock.
36 Hear the cry of the shepherds,
the wailing of the leaders of the flock,
for the LORD is destroying their pasture.
37 The peaceful meadows have been silenced
because of the LORD’s burning anger.
38 He has left His den like a lion,
for their land has been made a desolation
by the swordg of the oppressor,
and because of the fierce anger of the LORD.
Footnotes:
3 a Literally I have spoken to you, rising up early and speaking,
4 b Literally to you, rising up early and sending (them),
9 c Forms of the Hebrew cherem refer to the giving over of things or persons, either by destroying them or by giving them as an offering.
12 d That is, the Babylonians
26 e Sheshach is a code name for Babylon.
34 f Hebrew; LXX you will fall like the best of the rams
38 g Some Hebrew manuscripts and LXX (see also Jeremiah 46:16 and Jeremiah 50:16); most Hebrew manuscripts anger
https://biblehub.com/bsb/jeremiah/25.htm
[end quoting; bold and underline mine except for the Headings
]
Got to love all the debate on the 5 or 10 virgins. It's so fun to watch because they don't know what it really means. The 10 virgins represent the first century Jewish state. The 5 who were watching and ready were the Jews who accepted Christ. The other 5 rejected Christ. Plain and simple. This theme is found throughout the gospels. Christ didn't come to make peace but he came with a sword. He divided mother against father, brother against brother, etc. His ministry tore that country in two making them a divided house which could not stand much longer - and didn't.
1 Thes 5 echoes this parable:
"But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ..."
The wicked, unbelieving Jews were asleep and sudden wrath destruction fell upon them. The righteous Jews escaped to Pella and not one was lost. Those watching and sober were the believers and future bride. Those asleep died in the Great Tribulation or at the hands of the Romans after they broke through the walls.
1 Thes 5 echoes this parable:
"But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ..."
The wicked, unbelieving Jews were asleep and sudden wrath destruction fell upon them. The righteous Jews escaped to Pella and not one was lost. Those watching and sober were the believers and future bride. Those asleep died in the Great Tribulation or at the hands of the Romans after they broke through the walls.
OMG, did you really just change the 2300 days as years for us as if they were a future event? You don't realize that Dan 8 is largely about Antiochus IV Epiphanes and his abomination and subsequent cleansing of the temple by the Maccabees in the 160s BC. The 2300 are actually evenings and mornings thus it is 1150 days. According to Exodus 29:38-39, the Levites were to offer two sacrifices daily. One lamb was to be sacrificed in the morning and one in the evening. The 2,300 evenings and mornings in v. 14 represent the number of sacrifices that had failed to be offered to God. Thus it would have taken 1150 days or just over three years to offer these 2,300 missing sacrifices.
In 167 B.C., Antiochus’ army promised to peaceably entered Jerusalem (1 Maccabees 1:29-32). Then once inside, they suddenly attacked. Here one can see how in fulfillment of v. 23 Antiochus Epiphanies was a “master of intrigue.” Having killed a great multitude, the Greeks plundered the city then set it on fire. Caught off guard, the people of Jerusalem fled. Shortly thereafter, Antiochus issued a decree forbidding Temple sacrifices to Yahweh. With the Jews gone and the city now overrun with Greek soldiers, Temple sacrifice ceased. Then on the 25th day of Chislev, the Greeks offered a desolating sacrifice above the Temple altar. Hearing what had happened in Jerusalem, some Jewish rebels conspired to take back the city. After a long, bitter war, the Jews finally took back Jerusalem. And exactly 1150 days after the abomination that causes desolation, the Jewish people offered a lamb to God and once again continued the daily sacrifice.
How am I supposed to have a discussion with someone who never studied history?
The Greek word for "earth" is Gē, which can mean "land" or "earth"). At all times in OT prophesy it means "land!!" The "whole earth" means the "whole land of Israel." No wonder you futurists keep predicting doom and gloom for the whole planet. Simple translation error. Well rest easy my friend. All of these OT prophesies have been fulfilled, from Samuel on down. Peter makes that point crystal clear in Acts 3. They were living in those prophetic days - not us!!!
"...which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’ 24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days."
In 167 B.C., Antiochus’ army promised to peaceably entered Jerusalem (1 Maccabees 1:29-32). Then once inside, they suddenly attacked. Here one can see how in fulfillment of v. 23 Antiochus Epiphanies was a “master of intrigue.” Having killed a great multitude, the Greeks plundered the city then set it on fire. Caught off guard, the people of Jerusalem fled. Shortly thereafter, Antiochus issued a decree forbidding Temple sacrifices to Yahweh. With the Jews gone and the city now overrun with Greek soldiers, Temple sacrifice ceased. Then on the 25th day of Chislev, the Greeks offered a desolating sacrifice above the Temple altar. Hearing what had happened in Jerusalem, some Jewish rebels conspired to take back the city. After a long, bitter war, the Jews finally took back Jerusalem. And exactly 1150 days after the abomination that causes desolation, the Jewish people offered a lamb to God and once again continued the daily sacrifice.
How am I supposed to have a discussion with someone who never studied history?
The Greek word for "earth" is Gē, which can mean "land" or "earth"). At all times in OT prophesy it means "land!!" The "whole earth" means the "whole land of Israel." No wonder you futurists keep predicting doom and gloom for the whole planet. Simple translation error. Well rest easy my friend. All of these OT prophesies have been fulfilled, from Samuel on down. Peter makes that point crystal clear in Acts 3. They were living in those prophetic days - not us!!!
"...which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’ 24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days."
Your response has absolutely nothing to do with the fact "Josephus" was a biased paid reporter for the Roman emperor's.
You don't take an individual "Josephus" who is on the emperor's "Payroll", receiving wives and accommodation for his services to Rome as a "Neutral" reporter.
Forgetting he was an adulterer, he was a traitor to his Jewish people, helping Rome in their slaughter.
You don't take an individual "Josephus" who is on the emperor's "Payroll", receiving wives and accommodation for his services to Rome as a "Neutral" reporter.
Forgetting he was an adulterer, he was a traitor to his Jewish people, helping Rome in their slaughter.
Again, which side do you think God wanted to win? I love how you futurists cannot answer a specific question posed to you. Instead you divert and pivot away so to avoid it.
Josephus' biases do not undo the fact that he recorded things he saw or was told. A Roman spin does not alter the events as they occurred as long as they aren't political. The manner in how the Jews suffered, the number of deaths, the terrible storms and earthquakes, the intensity of the flames, the signs and omens in the sky, solders from heaven riding in the clouds, a loud voice from heaven, cows giving birth to lambs in the temple, gates swinging open on their own accord, etc., have no political leaning. Even CNN can report a volcano eruption or a tornado accurately.
Josephus' biases do not undo the fact that he recorded things he saw or was told. A Roman spin does not alter the events as they occurred as long as they aren't political. The manner in how the Jews suffered, the number of deaths, the terrible storms and earthquakes, the intensity of the flames, the signs and omens in the sky, solders from heaven riding in the clouds, a loud voice from heaven, cows giving birth to lambs in the temple, gates swinging open on their own accord, etc., have no political leaning. Even CNN can report a volcano eruption or a tornado accurately.
All reporters are on someone's payroll, right? All published authors get paid for their work, right? Are you really that daft? You would completely ignore an historical account because of one's political leanings? What if a devout Jew who survived wrote a similar account, would you accept that account as more accurate? No, you would bake in the fact that one is written from a Jewish prospective and the other from a Roman perspective.
You blindly follow Darby and the Plymouth Brethren, a radical group despised by the major of other Christian groups of their day, without looking into his background and reputation and you have no problem doing it. Darby took the rantings of a demon possessed woman who saw "the rapture" and took it for himself. In so doing, Darby invented the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine around 1830 AD. This is unquestionably true. All attempts to find evidence of this wild doctrine before 1830 have failed, with a single exception: Morgan Edwards wrote a short essay as a college paper for Bristol Baptist College in Bristol England in 1744 where he confused the second coming with the first resurrection of Revelation 20 and described a "pre-tribulation" rapture. However Edwards ideas, which he admitted were brand new and never before taught, had no influence in the modern population of the false doctrine. That prize to goes to Darby.
Prior to 1830, no church taught it in their creed, catechism or statement of faith.
Darby has had a profound impact on religion today, since Darby's "secret rapture" false doctrine has infected most conservative, evangelical churches. While the official creeds and statements of faith of many churches either reject or are silent about Rapture, neither do they openly condemn this doctrine of a demon from the pulpit.
While not all dispensationalists believe in the Rapture. All those who teach the Rapture also believe in premillennialism. Both groups use Israel's modern statehood status of 1948 to be a beginning of a countdown to the end.
All premillennialists, rapturists and dispensationalists alive today believe the Bible reveals the general era of when Christ will return. The date setters of the 1800's (Seventh-day Adventists who are date setting premillennialists who reject the rapture, Jehovah's Witnesses who have set many dates) based their predictions upon speculative arrangements of numbers and chronologies in the Bible. Today's date setters without exception wrongly believe that Israel gaining state hood in 1948 fulfilled Bible prophecy and that Christ would return within one generation.
There are two kinds of premillennialists: Those "Date setters" and "Date Teasers". "Date setters", set specific dates which are in fact a countdown clock to the extinction of their own ministries. (William Miller, Charles Russell, Ronald Weinland, Harold Camping, etc.) "Date teasers", share the same rhetoric of urgency that the "end is very soon", but refuse to lock into a specific date. (Jack Van Impe, Hal Lindsay, Tim LaHaye, Pentecostals, Baptists, Grant Jefferies, Christadelphians.)
Most of the TV preachers who promote rapture and/or "date set" all wrongly believe they are a prophet of God with special illumination. Pentecostals believe they are inspired directly from the Holy Spirit as modern day prophets. Baptists believe they are illuminated with guidance from the Holy Spirit through the Calvinist doctrine of Irresistible grace.
All Christians, with any sense, should reject all these false notions of God illuminating man and rely upon the pages of the Bible alone as a sole source of conduct and doctrine.
Prior to 1830, no church taught it in their creed, catechism or statement of faith.
Darby has had a profound impact on religion today, since Darby's "secret rapture" false doctrine has infected most conservative, evangelical churches. While the official creeds and statements of faith of many churches either reject or are silent about Rapture, neither do they openly condemn this doctrine of a demon from the pulpit.
While not all dispensationalists believe in the Rapture. All those who teach the Rapture also believe in premillennialism. Both groups use Israel's modern statehood status of 1948 to be a beginning of a countdown to the end.
All premillennialists, rapturists and dispensationalists alive today believe the Bible reveals the general era of when Christ will return. The date setters of the 1800's (Seventh-day Adventists who are date setting premillennialists who reject the rapture, Jehovah's Witnesses who have set many dates) based their predictions upon speculative arrangements of numbers and chronologies in the Bible. Today's date setters without exception wrongly believe that Israel gaining state hood in 1948 fulfilled Bible prophecy and that Christ would return within one generation.
There are two kinds of premillennialists: Those "Date setters" and "Date Teasers". "Date setters", set specific dates which are in fact a countdown clock to the extinction of their own ministries. (William Miller, Charles Russell, Ronald Weinland, Harold Camping, etc.) "Date teasers", share the same rhetoric of urgency that the "end is very soon", but refuse to lock into a specific date. (Jack Van Impe, Hal Lindsay, Tim LaHaye, Pentecostals, Baptists, Grant Jefferies, Christadelphians.)
Most of the TV preachers who promote rapture and/or "date set" all wrongly believe they are a prophet of God with special illumination. Pentecostals believe they are inspired directly from the Holy Spirit as modern day prophets. Baptists believe they are illuminated with guidance from the Holy Spirit through the Calvinist doctrine of Irresistible grace.
All Christians, with any sense, should reject all these false notions of God illuminating man and rely upon the pages of the Bible alone as a sole source of conduct and doctrine.
Yes, it's mentioned specifically in verse 30. Matthew 26:64 gives a more detailed account of when Jesus would return. It would be immediately after the high priest delivered Jesus up to be crucified.
(Mat 26:64) Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
(Mat 26:64) Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Show me.
The only postrib gathering is in heaven.
Rev 19 shows THAT GATHERING. It says the BRIDE has become THE WIFE.
That happens in heaven.
Think about it.
In your template you have the church gathered at the release of the king coming with the saints on white horses.
They meet the Lord in the clouds....NEVER SEE HEAVEN!!!
Poorly thought out and ONLY WORKS if my verses are either ignored or reframed.
Rev 14
Mat 25
Mat 24
Rev 19
Lot
Noah
The dialog at the last supper
The ac killing every human refusing the mark
1 thes 4(only those in christ resurrected....and that pre living saints) you have it post living...[rev 14])
You need all that changed!!!!
Wow
The only postrib gathering is in heaven.
Rev 19 shows THAT GATHERING. It says the BRIDE has become THE WIFE.
That happens in heaven.
Think about it.
In your template you have the church gathered at the release of the king coming with the saints on white horses.
They meet the Lord in the clouds....NEVER SEE HEAVEN!!!
Poorly thought out and ONLY WORKS if my verses are either ignored or reframed.
Rev 14
Mat 25
Mat 24
Rev 19
Lot
Noah
The dialog at the last supper
The ac killing every human refusing the mark
1 thes 4(only those in christ resurrected....and that pre living saints) you have it post living...[rev 14])
You need all that changed!!!!
Wow