Not By Works

[eternally-gratefull]

Again, you’re standing that on its head. Verse 13 qualifies who those are who received Him. Those who received Him were(past tense, already done) born of Him.

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.[John 1:12-13]

Who were the ones who received Him?

The ones born of blood? No.
The ones of the will of the flesh? No.
The ones of the will of man? No.
Those born of God? Yahtzee!


The ones born of God received the Christ. John couldn’t be any clearer in this if he tried.

Nope, it does not change a thing

i was not born again because of blood
i was not born again because of the will of my flesh
i was not born again by the will of my parents or any other person

i was born by the will of God

what was the will of God?

he said that in the preceding words

1. but as many as received him

2. to them (those who recieved him

3. he gave the right (exousia - power, authority)

4, to become children of God (new birth or born again)

It’s there in order and in plain words,

once again, as I told you all before

I did NOT will myself to heaven I did not have that power or authority, my flesh would never chose God as you say, my flesh had to be broken, God did that, not me! and I did not chose God He chose me!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And that’s exactly how John worded it. He couldn’t have made it any clearer if he tried.

I disagree, this is not the way I see it

he worded it as it says

we first receive God, and after doing this, we recieve the power to be born again,

Paul says the same thing in eph 1 : 13-14

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who[d] is the [e]guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

1. we hear the word (through God’s power)
2. Then we trust God in faith
3. Then we are sealed by the spirit,

new birth and all that goes with it come after faith

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

I disagree, this is not the way I see it

he worded it as it says

we first receive God, and after doing this, we recieve the power to be born again,

Paul says the same thing in eph 1 : 13-14

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who[d] is the [e]guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

1. we hear the word (through God’s power)
2. Then we trust God in faith
3. Then we are sealed by the spirit,

new birth and all that goes with it come after faith

Again, you can spin it any way you wish. Verse 13 qualifies who are those who received Him. The ones who are born of God received Him. John couldn’t be any clearer in this.

 

[jackrosie]

Sack cloth..EG...you are both strong believer,with a lot of biblical knowledge..I LOVE you both,x....not forgetting dc as well..x

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Sack cloth..EG...you are both strong believer,with a lot of biblical knowledge..I LOVE you both,x....not forgetting dc as well..x

Thank you. ❤️👍🏆

 

[mailmandan]

Yes, He knows beforehand who will be saved, as He elected them unto salvation, and this salvation takes place in time. Fatalism involves an impersonal force. Election deals with a loving God who chose to save a multitude who don‘t deserve to be saved to begin with.

Yet God elects beforehand who will be saved based on what? If it's not based on His foreknowledge of knowing who will receive Christ through faith, then what? We are justified by faith and have access by faith into grace. (Romans 5:1-2) If salvation and condemnation is fixed in advance by God so that human beings are powerless to change them, I understand that as fatalistic determination.

The elect get grace (unmerited favor) and mercy, neither which they deserved. The non-elect get justice (what they deserve). He does injustice to no one.

None of us deserve grace and mercy so what do you believe is the determining factor by God as to whether or not we are part of the elect?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Again, you can spin it any way you wish. Verse 13 qualifies who are those who received Him. The ones who are born of God received Him. John couldn’t be any clearer in this.

First, please stop with the “spin” nonsense
second, I already explained that I agree with you, it is not done by any of those things. Which I also notice you did not remark on
third - you say it is clear as day, but you would have to reword it to make it clear as day, you would have to so, for those who have been born of God, he gave the power to receive him.

so looking at this, I must ask, who is the one who is actually doing the spinning (since you made the accusation)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Sack cloth..EG...you are both strong believer,with a lot of biblical knowledge..I LOVE you both,x....not forgetting dc as well..x

Love you al always. Keep studying as sackcloth has recommended, as Scripture says test everything we say,

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Yet God elects beforehand who will be saved based on what? If it's not based on His foreknowledge of knowing who will receive Christ through faith, then what? We are justified by faith and have access by faith into grace. (Romans 5:1-2) If salvation and condemnation is fixed in advance by God so that human beings are powerless to change them, I understand that as fatalistic determination.

Based upon Himself, His counsel, and His will.[Ephesians 1:11] His foreknowledge is not based upon who He knows will receive Him my friend. That is salvation via merit, not grace. If He chose John because He knew he’d be willing, and didn’t choose Billy because He knew he wouldn’t be willing, He chose John because of what he’s willing to do. That’s merit any way you put it.

Before time began, election took place. Before God said “Let there be light”, this had taken place. Remember, foreknowledge is a verb, meaning God does something when He foreknows certain individuals.

Look at it this way. Not one single solitary person ever went around looking for a way to God in their unregenerate state. That’s why the Bible says there are none who seek God. This is found in Psalm 14 and Romans 3. If someone truly sought for Him and He barred him from coming, then yes, that would be cruel. But God doesn’t have to place His palm on ppl’s forehands to keep them from coming to Him. In their unregenerate state, they won’t seek for Him. That is why He has to seek for His sheep.[Matthew 18:12-14]

None of us deserve grace and mercy so what do you believe is the determining factor by God as to whether or not we are part of the elect?

Himself. He is the determining One. Remember, your side says that if God doesn’t at least call everybody at least once, then He isn’t being fair. If He has to do this, then that’s an obligation on His part to do so. Grace is unmerited favor, meaning there was nothing in the saved person that attracted God to them. You’re saying that God chose those He knew would be willing. That’s attracting God to them, they merited His attention because they’d be willing to be saved. That’s a merit based salvation. The antithesis of grace.

 

[mailmandan]

Based upon Himself, His counsel, and His will.[Ephesians 1:11] His foreknowledge is not based upon who He knows will receive Him my friend. That is salvation via merit, not grace.

How would that be merit on our part when we receive the free gift of eternal life by grace through faith? Salvation based on works would be via merit. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

If election is based solely on God's counsel and His will, which has nothing do to whatsoever with man's free will and choices, what would be the point of creating billions and billions of people, only for the purpose of saving a small percentage of them? How does that harmonize with God saying He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9) if your argument was the case? I guess I will never understand that line of reasoning.

 

[Duskey]

I disagree, this is not the way I see it

he worded it as it says

we first receive God, and after doing this, we recieve the power to be born again,

Paul says the same thing in eph 1 : 13-14

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who[d] is the [e]guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

1. we hear the word (through God’s power)
2. Then we trust God in faith
3. Then we are sealed by the spirit,

new birth and all that goes with it come after faith

If Calvinism was correct, which it’s not, it seems that people who are against OSAS would be against calvinism because it represents that you could sin unrepentantly at will with no repercussions. Even OSAS believers understand there are repercussions for unrepentant sin.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Proginosko means:

1. to have knowledge before hand
2. to foreknow
3. of those whom God elected to salvation
4. to predestinate

Its found in:

since they have known about me for a long time, if they are willing to testify, that I lived as a Pharisee according to the strictest sect of our religion.[Acts 26:5]

This is Paul speaking to Agrippa about how the Jews previously (beforehand) about him and his life.

For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;[Romans 8:29]

This is talking about election. Those He foreknew, not their actions, but them. He doesn’t foreknow ppl’s actions, but ppl themselves. Whom He foreknew, not what.

God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?[Romans 11:2]

Again, whom(ppl not ppl’s actions) He foreknew. See my Romans 8:29 quote.

For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you.[1 Peter 1:20]

Here we see the Christ being predestined to be the sacrificial Lamb on the cross. He was foreordained to be this Lamb nailed to a cross. It was He, not His actions, that were predestined/foreordained to this work on the cross. God doesn’t foreknow ppl’s actions, but ppl themselves.

You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,[2 Peter 3:17]

Peter is telling them of the things they knew beforehand and was giving them a reminder.

That’s where you see the range of proginosko is used. It does mean to know beforehand, but that’s used when Paul and Peter are talking to others. It also means to foreordain when used in reference to how God saves the elect.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

How would that be merit on our part when we receive the free gift of eternal life by grace through faith? Salvation based on works would be via merit. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

You said that God elects ppl based upon those He knows would be willing to receive Christ. So, those He knows won’t do this, He doesn’t elect. According to your very own words, God elects those He knows who will be willing. He’s electing them based upon what they will do. That’s merit my friend. No way around it.

If election is based solely on God's counsel and His will, which has nothing do to whatsoever with man's free will and choices, what would be the point of creating billions and billions of people, only for the purpose of saving a small percentage of them? How does that harmonize with God saying He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9) if your argument was the case? I guess I will never understand that line of reasoning.

The sooner you realize fallen man’s will is not free, the better. The lost are in bondage to sin and Satan. Their wills are not free whatsoever. Matthew 7:24, Romans 6:6 & 6:16ff clearly shows the lost are slaves to sin. Slaves aren’t free

2 Peter 3:9 is directed to believers. How’d I know you’d use that verse? Y’all must think we’ve blotted out John 3:16 and 2 Peter 3:9 from our bibles.

The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.[2 Peter 3:9]

There‘s your context right there. Where else can we find this language?

“What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying? If it turns out that he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine which have not gone astray. So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.[Matthew 18:12-14]

Same language is used here. Notice how He said the shepherd would seek for his lost sheep. He doesn’t just call for them, He seeks them out. That’s where the gospel comes in. We are His representatives here on earth, and He seeks His sheep out through us, as we witness to ppl. He doesn’t just call them, He finds them and saves them.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

what would be the point of creating billions and billions of people, only for the purpose of saving a small percentage of them?

I’m going to flip this back at you. What would be the point of God creating billions and billions of ppl He knew would never receive Him and then casting them headlong into an eternal hell? Knowing no amount of begging, pleading, crying for their souls, witnessing to them, they’d never be willing to receive Him. He knew beforehand(according to your side of this debate) they‘d never be willing to receive Him, yet He created them anyways. Why? Riddle me this.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

First, please stop with the “spin” nonsense
second, I already explained that I agree with you, it is not done by any of those things. Which I also notice you did not remark on
third - you say it is clear as day, but you would have to reword it to make it clear as day, you would have to so, for those who have been born of God, he gave the power to receive him.

so looking at this, I must ask, who is the one who is actually doing the spinning (since you made the accusation)

Verse 13 qualifies those who received Him are. No spinning, just exegeting the texts.

If I misunderstood your post, I offer you my sincerest apology.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

If Calvinism was correct, which it’s not, it seems that people who are against OSAS would be against calvinism because it represents that you could sin unrepentantly at will with no repercussions. Even OSAS believers understand there are repercussions for unrepentant sin.

You have to remember, OSAS and eternal security aren’t the same thing. Ppl will say they agree with OSAS, but they really mean eternal security. That’s if I understand OSAS correctly. My understanding of it is it teaches ppl can live in sin and still be saved. Eternal security teaches the saved sin, but won’t live sinful lives, and they also live a life of repentance.

But maybe my understanding of OSAS is flawed?

 

[cv5]

I’m going to flip this back at you. What would be the point of God creating billions and billions of ppl He knew would never receive Him and then casting them headlong into an eternal hell? Knowing no amount of begging, pleading, crying for their souls, witnessing to them, they’d never be willing to receive Him. He knew beforehand(according to your side of this debate) they‘d never be willing to receive Him, yet He created them anyways. Why? Riddle me this.

When I conducted some one-on-one preaching this last week or so, I can tell you that I did NOT see people pleading and begging for Jesus to save them. Jesus saves those who call upon his Name and abide.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If Calvinism was correct, which it’s not, it seems that people who are against OSAS would be against calvinism because it represents that you could sin unrepentantly at will with no repercussions. Even OSAS believers understand there are repercussions for unrepentant sin.

That’s the just of the nosas movement. If you read. It is more an anti Calvinist movement. That’s why they can never comprehend what we are saying they think we are all Calvinist. Which starts them
Iff On the wrong root argument

 

[mailmandan]

You said that God elects ppl based upon those He knows would be willing to receive Christ. So, those He knows won’t do this, He doesn’t elect.

If he who believes in Him is not condemned but he who does not believe is condemned already.. (John 3:18) then any other reason would be fatalistic determination.

According to your very own words, God elects those He knows who will be willing. He’s electing them based upon what they will do. That’s merit my friend. No way around it.

God knows the beginning from the end in regards to election and receiving a free gift isn't about doing something that merits eternal life. Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption alone and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6)

2 Peter 3:9 is directed to believers. How’d I know you’d use that verse? Y’all must think we’ve blotted out John 3:16 and 2 Peter 3:9 from our bibles.

The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.[2 Peter 3:9]

There‘s your context right there. Where else can we find this language?

Believers need to repent or perish? No, unbelievers need to repent or perish. "Toward you" is addressed in general. John 3:16 reads "whosoever believes in Him" shall not perish, but have eternal life and not whosoever was fortunate enough to be elected based on God's mysterious purpose shall not perish, but have eternal life.

“What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying? If it turns out that he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine which have not gone astray. So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.

[Matthew 18:12-14]

Same language is used here. Notice how He said the shepherd would seek for his lost sheep. He doesn’t just call for them, He seeks them out. That’s where the gospel comes in. We are His representatives here on earth, and He seeks His sheep out through us, as we witness to ppl. He doesn’t just call them, He finds them and saves them.

In context, we see that Jesus is directing this parable to the Pharisees and scribes who complained, saying that Jesus receives sinners and eats with them, while failing to recognize because of pride and self righteousness that they were sinners themselves. The main point of this parable is the absolute importance of finding the one lost sheep -- there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. In Luke 19:10, we read - "for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost."

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I’m going to flip this back at you. What would be the point of God creating billions and billions of ppl He knew would never receive Him and then casting them headlong into an eternal hell? Knowing no amount of begging, pleading, crying for their souls, witnessing to them, they’d never be willing to receive Him. He knew beforehand(according to your side of this debate) they‘d never be willing to receive Him, yet He created them anyways. Why? Riddle me this.

Well we have heard two possibilities from mailman dan and you
how about a third
he created billions and billions of people and puts them all under sin so that the gift of salvation can be offered to all. Knowing billions in the end will be saved and the rest have no one to blame but themselves. Because they had the same opportunity and rejected it
I think the third choice resembles the god who is a god of justice while also a god of love more aptly than the other two