The absurdity and heresy of Preterism

[TheDivineWatermark]

When is everybody asleep? At night. That is what "at night" means. Jesus comes back when everybody is asleep, so keep your lamps burning--that is what Jesus keeps saying over and over again. No need to create a false dichotomy where none exists.

You've apparently not read my past posts about:

--"our Rapture" takes place PRECEDING the "IN THE NIGHT" time-period's ARRIVAL [i.e. before the DOTL(-time-period)'s ARRIVAL];

--FOLLOWING "our Rapture" is when the "LAMPS LIT" ("TOOK LAMPS") takes place, and not by US (the "10 Virgins" R NOT US--Jesus is not coming to MARRY "10 [or even 5] VirginS [PLURAl]"--they ain't us, see); I made posts on this [it is this that pertains to the "IN THE NIGHT" time period ("DARK"/"DARKNESS"/etc)];

--the "10 VirginS [PLURAL]" pertain to "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" (i.e. the earthly MK age, its inauguration), NOT "the MARRIAGE" (pertaining solely to "the BRIDE/WIFE [SINGULAR]" who is not mentioned in the "wedding FEAST/SUPPER" passages [aka the earthly MK age, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth]--see again also Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" THEN the meal! [in this context/contexts, He is RETURNING as an "ALREADY-WED" Bridegroom, FOR "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER"/the earthly MK age)

--much more I could say (that I've put in numerous past posts, on this Subject), but I'm short on time, here... = )

 

[acts5_29]

I just read the context for Acts 3:23 and it didn't come close to answering my question from PlainWord's perspective. What should I have understood from that scripture? Maybe I am not looking at it with the right questions in mind.

Jesus was prophesied in Deuteronomy 18. The Hebrews were told that God would send a Prophet, and that anyone who didn't listen to him would be utterly cut off from God's people. For the longest time, Jews banked on this for their reason for believing in a future Messiah. This, Peter says, is Jesus, whom they crucified (Acts 3:20).

Salvation is in Jesus Christ. God's people must follow Him. Anyone who does not, will not be counted among God's people. Of course there is salvation for Gentiles today--through Jesus Christ. Just as there is the same for Jews. But there is one people of God, and those are followers of Jesus Christ. There may have been another people who chose to follow a False Messiah, but they were destroyed. That is not some "doctrine"--that is Acts 3.

 

[acts5_29]

You've apparently not read my past posts about:

--"our Rapture" takes place PRECEDING the "IN THE NIGHT" time-period's ARRIVAL [i.e. before the DOTL(-time-period)'s ARRIVAL]

--FOLLOWING "our Rapture" is when the "LAMPS LIT" ("TOOK LAMPS") takes place, and not by US (the "10 Virgins" R NOT US--Jesus is not coming to MARRY "10 [or even 5] VirginS [PLURAl]"--they ain't us, see); I made posts on this

--the "10 VirginS [PLURAL]" pertain to "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" (i.e. the earthly MK age, its inauguration), NOT "the MARRIAGE" (pertaining solely to "the BRIDE/WIFE [SINGULAR]" who is not mentioned in the "wedding FEAST/SUPPER" passages [aka the earthly MK age, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth]--see again also Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" THEN the meal! [in this context/contexts, He is RETURNING as an "ALREADY-WED" Bridegroom, FOR "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER"/the earthly MK age)

--much more I could say (that I've put in numerous past posts, on this Subject), but I'm short on time, here... = )

It's not a matter of not reading. It's a matter of not buying it.

 

[Ahwatukee]

If you support preDESTINATION, I concede that your belief system can be consistent. But if we go with foreknowledge alone and salvation is a personal decision made as an individual, then having all these numbers all neatly fit into 12,000 for 12 tribes is a bit far-fetched. As an Arminian, I don't think I'm going to be able to get there.

Also, the 12 tribes of Revelation do not match the 12 tribes of Israel. There is a tribe of Joseph now. There was a falling away in the tribe of Dan, and he was cut off. Which matters, because you have the 144,000 as the UNBELIEVING Jews. Dan, who was unbelieving, was not sealed, but cut off.

The 12 tribes match except for Dan, which is replaced by Manasseh, Joseph's son. However, this change does not disqualify the list as representing the actual 12 tribes. God has removed Dan and added Manasseh and that by His own reasoning. So far the Spirit has not revealed to me the reason for this, but I continue to watch out for it. The belief that Dan is not in the list because of idol worship is not a valid one, because all of tribes worshiped idols throughout different times in their history. For all we know, God's replacement of Dan with Manasseh has nothing to do with any error on Dan's part, but is because of some other Sovereign reason. What is important is to not disregard these 144,000 as being literal Israel just because of this change.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

It's not a matter of not reading. It's a matter of not buying it.

So, you believe Jesus is coming TO MARRY "10 [or at least 5] VirginS [/BridesmaidS--PLURAL]" ??

[I think that sounds rather "twisted" ]

To add to my previous post, for your consideration...


[how do you answer THIS? (below)]

Consider the following passage (addressed TO/FOR/ABOUT "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY," i.e. all those saved "in this present age [singular]")

1 Thessalonians 5:6-10 - [explanation in brackets--note how the SAME Grk words are in vv.6 and 10] -

6 So then we should not sleep [G2518 - katheudōmen] as the others,
but we should watch [G1127 - grēgorōmen] and we should be sober.

7 For those sleeping, sleep by night; and those becoming drunk, get drunk by night.

8 But we being of the day should be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love,
and the helmet, the hope of salvation [an eschatalogical salvation, per context],

9 because God has not destined us for wrath,
but for obtaining salvation through [/by means of] our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 the One having died for us, so that whether we might watch [same Greek word as in verse 6! G1127 - grēgorōmen]
OR [whether] we might sleep [same Greek word as in verse 6! G2518 - katheudōmen--NOT meaning 'death' here as the OTHER Greek word does in the previous chpt! in 4:13,14,15--NOT *that* word!],
we may live together with [G4862 - syn - denoting 'UNION'-with/'IDENTIFICATION'-with] Him.



[THIS "WITH [G4862]" word being distinct from the OTHER "with [G3326]" word that is used of the "10 [or 5] Virgins [PLURAL]" who will "go in WITH [G3326 - accompanying] Him to the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" Matt25:10 (i.e. the EARTHLY MK age, commencing upon His RETURN to the earth)]

IOW, this passage says, "that WHETHER we might WATCH *OR* we might sleep [meaning the same as those words in verse 6] we should live together WITH [G4862 - UNITED-with/IDENTIFIED-with] Him" (and as said in relation to the previous part of the sentence/context); which wording (overall) is distinct from that which we see in the gospels and in the Olivet Discourse.


How do you answer this? = )

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

2 Corinthians 11:2 -

"For I [Paul] am jealous over you [corporate, plural 'you'] with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you [corporate, plural 'you'] TO ONE HUSBAND, that I may present you as A CHASTE VIRGIN [SINGULAR] to Christ."



[this ^ is what pertains (solely) to "the MARRIAGE" itself (<--Rev19:7; ... being distinct from Rev19:9 pertaining to "THOSE [PLURAL] having been INVITED [i.e. the GUESTS-PLURAL, etc] to the wedding SUPPER [/FEAST] of the Lamb" (/the earthly MK age), see]

 

[acts5_29]

So, you believe Jesus is coming TO MARRY "10 [or at least 5] VirginS [/BridesmaidS--PLURAL]" ??

[I think that sounds rather "twisted" ]

To add to my previous post, for your consideration...


[how do you answer THIS? (below)]

Consider the following passage (addressed TO/FOR/ABOUT "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY," i.e. all those saved "in this present age [singular]")

1 Thessalonians 5:6-10 - [explanation in brackets--note how the SAME Grk words are in vv.6 and 10] -

6 So then we should not sleep [G2518 - katheudōmen] as the others,
but we should watch [G1127 - grēgorōmen] and we should be sober.

7 For those sleeping, sleep by night; and those becoming drunk, get drunk by night.

8 But we being of the day should be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love,
and the helmet, the hope of salvation [an eschatalogical salvation, per context],

9 because God has not destined us for wrath,
but for obtaining salvation through [/by means of] our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 the One having died for us, so that whether we might watch [same Greek word as in verse 6! G1127 - grēgorōmen]
OR [whether] we might sleep [same Greek word as in verse 6! G2518 - katheudōmen--NOT meaning 'death' here as the OTHER Greek word does in the previous chpt! in 4:13,14,15--NOT *that* word!],
we may live together with [G4862 - syn - denoting 'UNION'-with/'IDENTIFICATION'-with] Him.



[THIS "WITH [G4862]" word being distinct from the OTHER "with [G3326]" word that is used of the "10 [or 5] Virgins [PLURAL]" who will "go in WITH [G3326 - accompanying] Him to the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" Matt25:10 (i.e. the EARTHLY MK age, commencing upon His RETURN to the earth)]

IOW, this passage says, "that WHETHER we might WATCH *OR* we might sleep [meaning the same as those words in verse 6] we should live together WITH [G4862 - UNITED-with/IDENTIFIED-with] Him" (and as said in relation to the previous part of the sentence/context); which wording (overall) is distinct from that which we see in the gospels and in the Olivet Discourse.


How do you answer this? = )

Actually, in a sense, yes--Jesus comes back to marry the bridesmaids (plural). Seeing as how the Church (the bride) is composed of many believers (plural). It is a parable. The point Jesus is trying to get through is in the symbolism--not in where the symbolism breaks down.

"Night" is one thing. Satan brings night. "Night" is the time Satan rules. AND it is the time when people can't see past their own hand. AND it is the time people are asleep. AND it is the time the thief comes. AND it is the time when the people of God who insist on doing the right thing are given a really hard time--and they need to persevere, for daylight is coming. It means all those things at the same time. That's why Jesus used the term: "night" is something we understand.

 

[Ahwatukee]

No, they were--according to this account--unbelieving at the time they are sealed, and probably after the Rapture (because anyone Jew or Gentile who was saved at the time of the Rapture is no longer there). Yet they are predestined for salvation later on.

The problem is, the tribe of Dan was cut off for unbelief. And were not sealed.

I agree with the first part that the 144,000 will be here during the first 3 1/2 years of the seven year period. However, there is no indication that they will be unbelieving at the time they are sealed. What it does say is that, these are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they are virgins. And lie was found in their mouths. They are blameless.

Regarding Dan not being on the list because they were cut off, I'm saying that, this is not true. All of the tribes of Israel are guilty of unbelief throughout their history at one time or another. Therefore, that is not the reason. And as I said, we don't even know if the reason that they are not in the list is due to anything that they did or didn't do, but may simply be because of God's Sovereign reasoning. To claim that they are not listed because of disbelief, would be by pure conjecture and assumption, because there is no scripture which specifically gives us the reason.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Actually, in a sense, yes--Jesus comes back to marry the bridesmaids (plural). Seeing as how the Church (the bride) is composed of many believers (plural). It is a parable. The point Jesus is trying to get through is in the symbolism--not in where the symbolism breaks down.

"Night" is one thing. Satan brings night. "Night" is the time Satan rules. AND it is the time when people can't see past their own hand. AND it is the time people are asleep. AND it is the time the thief comes. AND it is the time when the people of God who insist on doing the right thing are given a really hard time--and they need to persevere, for daylight is coming. It means all those things at the same time. That's why Jesus used the term: "night" is something we understand.

K (I understand your viewpoint on it), now if you would, please read and address the passage I spelled out from 1Th5, and explain it.

Thanks. = )



[for the readers: see my posts about the "LAMPS LIT" ("TOOK LAMPS") and how that RELATES to the message that WILL BE being preached IN/DURING the FUTURE trib years: Matt24:14/Matt26:13<--how this relates to the "LAMPS LIT" during the "DARK"/"DARKNESS"/"IN THE NIGHT" time period FOLLOWING "our Rapture"/"THE Departure" (aka when ALL of the LIGHTBULBS will have EXITED this earth! --see also Dan7:7 and Gen46:2, etc)]

 

[Runningman]

Jesus was prophesied in Deuteronomy 18. The Hebrews were told that God would send a Prophet, and that anyone who didn't listen to him would be utterly cut off from God's people. For the longest time, Jews banked on this for their reason for believing in a future Messiah. This, Peter says, is Jesus, whom they crucified (Acts 3:20).

Salvation is in Jesus Christ. God's people must follow Him. Anyone who does not, will not be counted among God's people. Of course there is salvation for Gentiles today--through Jesus Christ. Just as there is the same for Jews. But there is one people of God, and those are followers of Jesus Christ. There may have been another people who chose to follow a False Messiah, but they were destroyed. That is not some "doctrine"--that is Acts 3.

Ok I agree with Acts 3, then. I thought my question regarding his view of salvation was a valid one because it would help me have a more rounded understanding.

I'm just trying to figure out what someone who believes in preterism actually believes at this point. From what I have heard so far it seems like very shakey theology. I personally think there is enough holes in the theory to throw up several red flags to the one who professes it.

There's a lot to read, but one page back I asked a lot of questions and made several points that I thought should make one have enough doubt to reconsider that preterism is most likely not the right way for the modern person to understand the Bible.

 

[acts5_29]

The 12 tribes match except for Dan, which is replaced by Manasseh, Joseph's son. However, this change does not disqualify the list as representing the actual 12 tribes. God has removed Dan and added Manasseh and that by His own reasoning. So far the Spirit has not revealed to me the reason for this, but I continue to watch out for it. The belief that Dan is not in the list because of idol worship is not a valid one, because all of tribes worshiped idols throughout different times in their history. For all we know, God's replacement of Dan with Manasseh has nothing to do with any error on Dan's part, but is because of some other Sovereign reason. What is important is to not disregard these 144,000 as being literal Israel just because of this change.

I will try to break down fact from interpretation here.

Starting with Numbers 1:5-16. The 12 tribes of Israel per Torah do not match the tribes per Revelation 7. Manasseh was not replaced--he is in both. Dan and Ephraim were replaced by Levi and Joseph. And Levi was excluded from the original 12 for reasons the Bible was explicit about (they were not bad reasons...).

The important thing about interpretation is in understanding what "literal" really means. THIS life is the symbolism. ETERNAL life is the literal. Not the other way around. The things of this life are here solely to point us to the eternal, and to help us better understand it. The earthly Israel, whatever that may be, serves to point us to the real, literal Israel. There is this perception that whenever we refer to "symbolism", we are just getting all liberal and reading into the Bible whatever we want, but that is not the case.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Actually, in a sense, yes--Jesus comes back to marry the bridesmaids (plural). Seeing as how the Church (the bride) is composed of many believers (plural). It is a parable. The point Jesus is trying to get through is in the symbolism--not in where the symbolism breaks down.

I disagree for many reasons (only some of which I've spelled out in this thread and others recently), but I'm popping back in here to address some of your second paragraph:

"Night" is one thing. Satan brings night. "Night" is the time Satan rules. AND it is the time when people can't see past their own hand. AND it is the time people are asleep. AND it is the time the thief comes. AND it is the time when the people of God who insist on doing the right thing are given a really hard time--and they need to persevere, for daylight is coming. It means all those things at the same time. That's why Jesus used the term: "night" is something we understand.

Paul said to the Thessalonians that they KNOW PERFECTLY that "the DOTL" ARRIVES like "a thief IN THE NIGHT" at the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" (the SAME "beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" that Jesus spoke of in His Olivet Discourse, but there in the PLURAL). IOW, the Thessalonians were not ignorant of WHAT "the DOTL" is and the manner of its ARRIVAL.

In his second letter to them, he is compelled to address the issue of what verse 2Th2:2[15] speaks of, which is basically him saying, don't let anyone convince you Thessalonians that 'the DOTL' IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative]"; It wasn't, and Paul explains WHY this is NOT SO. (He REPEATS the SEQUENCE 3x in this 2Th2:3-9a context--how the one thing RELATES [time-wise] TO the other thing; or, what happens when, in relation to what other thing.)


So... "the DOTL" is an earthly time-period of JUDGMENTs followed by a time period of BLESSINGs. It STARTS when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" (Isa3:13; Rev5:6; Lam2:3-4 as compared with 2Th2:7b-8a; etc [note that Rev5:9 has the 24 elders saying "hast redeemed US"])

 

[acts5_29]

Ok I agree with Acts 3, then. I thought my question regarding his view of salvation was a valid one because it would help me have a more rounded understanding.

I'm just trying to figure out what someone who believes in preterism actually believes at this point. .

I am leaning toward preterist/idealist myself, and the way I view it is that we should view Revelation and prophesies the same way we view pretty much any other Epistle or Biblical narrative: that the actual message or events happened back then, but we need to apply those same principles today. Daniel and the Lion's Den happened back then, but the story still applies to us today, and thus it is in the Bible. "Do not muzzle the ox while he is thrashing grain": most of us do not deal with oxen on a day-to-day basis today, but the command still applies to us today in some form or fashion. Likewise, the events of Revelation and Matthew 24 which have partly...mostly...unfolded, we should understand and apply appropriately in our own Christian life. That's why I say I regard myself as somewhat of a mixed preterist/idealist.

Also, it is not the end of prophecy. The Church had no New Testament or Revelation back then: instead they got letters from the Apostles, along with a lot of noise from false teachers. We should reasonably expect the same to happen to us in our own time of trouble. We don't always get the benefit of an inerrant canon, to decide for us what is indeed a word from God. Figuring out what comes from God and what doesn't is up to us, and our own pursuit of God. Exactly as the early Church had to do. Even from a preterist view, that lesson from Revelation sounds loud and clear.

 

[PlainWord]

First of all: Hogwash.

I do not know how in the world you can come to that conclusion.

(Whatever specifically applied to them alone, applied to them; whatever applies to the entire Body, applies to us also And there indeed are things in both Thessalonians epistles that apply to the ENTIRE "ONE BODY"/"the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [Paul was tasked with disclosing "doctrinal truths" pertaining especially to it!])

Do you believe Paul was told the precise day [as in, date on the calendar] that "the Church which is His body" would be summed up (and taken to the "episynagoges UNTO HIM" [/"our Rapture"/"THE Departure"])? I don't.

But I do believe he indeed knew what that is (the "ONE BODY"--1Cor12:12, etc), and when it started, as well as doctrine pertaining especially to it (this, he was tasked with disclosing, so surely he knew much about it, but this doesn't mean he grasped it would be summed up / and taken up some nearly 2000 years later).





Secondly, to be clear (since your post is kind of BLURRING these issues together), when I wrote about the "proleptic 'you'" in the Olivet Discourse (Matthew section), I am NOT saying THIS [that context] refers and applies to "the Church which is His body" [/us]... but to THOSE TO WHOM "the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom" was promised. [read again Acts 1:6 and Acts 3:21 pertaining to *this* particular topic].

IOW, NOTHING in the Olivet Discourse is covering the Subject of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" [disclosed and explained elsewhere]... so it ain't addressing "US"/"the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"; Jesus was speaking on the Subject of the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom and the specific, limited [future] time period that would immediately precede it and LEAD UP TO it (and which includes His Second Coming to the earth, FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, variously called: "the kingdom OF THE heavenS [on the earth]," "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER [on the earth]," "the AGE [SINGULAR] to come," the "G347 - shall sit down [around a table / at a meal (Lk12:36-38,40 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal [G347]!) and Matt8:11 and its parallel!]," and all "Son of man cometh/shall come/be come/coming of/etc" passages [<--which is His "Second Coming TO THE EARTH" designation (to judge and to reign)], the 10 or so "BLESSED" passages relating to this particular point in the chronology ("Judgment" precedes it, as another aspect of "the DOTL" earthly time-period), and even when "the 12" [as they were told] will "sit on 12 thrones, judgING the 12 tribes of Israel"(<--this pertains to the "UNTIL" thing in Acts 3:21... IOW, this hasn't happened/started yet); etc (too many more to cover here in this post)

So many holes to fill. If 4 compartments are breached you could stay afloat, but you have 5. With 5 compartments breached there is no saving your theory. I tell you it is a scientific fact, Titanic will flounder. Everything will be at the bottom of the sea.

When it comes to prophesy, an exact event, such as the second coming, happen once to one set of people on one date. When it comes to doctrinal issues, they apply to the whole body. If the Thessalonians were told they would rest from their persecution, then that applied to them. We cannot get rest from their persecution. Your logic is so convoluted.

10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

They were to wait for His Son from heaven. They were to be delivered from His wrath upon Jerusalem. This is twice now they were promised the "Son from heaven."

17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Some of them were to still be alive just as Jesus said that to those standing there before he went up to be transfigured. How else could they be comforted with an event thousands of years later, too far off to do them any good?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The things of this life are here solely to point us to the eternal, and to help us better understand it. The earthly Israel, whatever that may be, serves to point us to the real, literal Israel. There is this perception that whenever we refer to "symbolism", we are just getting all liberal and reading into the Bible whatever we want, but that is not the case.

ALL 73 occurrences of the word "Israel" in the NT ALL MEAN "Israel".

"How is the Term Israel Used in the New Testament?"

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/reformed/israelaf.htm

...note especially the entries (at link) under "Romans 9:6, Romans 11:26, Ephesians 2:12, and Galatians 6:16" (the ones most often mis-interpreted/mis-applied by Covenant Theologians)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

So many holes to fill. [...]

When it comes to prophesy, an exact event, such as the second coming, happen once to one set of people on one date. When it comes to doctrinal issues, they apply to the whole body. If the Thessalonians were told they would rest from their persecution, then that applied to them. We cannot get rest from their persecution. Your logic is so convoluted.

Again, you are basing your idea on the wording in 2Th1:7 which I've explained in the past, says,

"ye who are troubled REST/REPOSE with us IN THE REVELATION OF the Lord Jesus from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire INFLICTING VENGEANCE on those who do not know God and do not obey [/heed] the gospel of our Lord Jesus."


[compare this ^ with: "because you have kept 'THE WORD OF the patient-endurance of Me'" (versus "the hour of trial" they are said to be "kept OUT OF" [that is, kept out-of the time-period itself])]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Some of them were to still be alive just as Jesus said that to those standing there before he went up to be transfigured. How else could they be comforted with an event thousands of years later, too far off to do them any good?

"1 And after six days, Jesus takes with Him Peter, and James, and John his brother, and brings them up into a high mountain by themselves. 2 And He was transfigured before them, and His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became white as the light.
[...]
9 And as they were descending from the mountain, Jesus instructed them, saying, “Tell to no one the vision, until the Son of Man is risen out from the dead.”



"The Transfiguration" is a picture of His Second Coming glory. They were given a snapshot to "see [G3708 - horao]" [i.e. "the vision [G3705 - horama]"]. (And yes, they were really up on a high mountain, at that time.)

 

[PlainWord]

I think I understand why you believe the way you do, but I don't agree with it. You mentioned in your post that it was directed to Jews. I'm not Jewish, not even a little bit, and most people aren't either. Nor was I born within the timeframe of Jesus up to 70 AD.

All I've gotten out of this is you think the climax has come and gone thousands of years ago and we all today are striving against the inevitable and vainly grasping for the return of Christ.

What do you say to people alive today? What about gentiles? Can we still have salvation through faith in Christ?

The context of Acts 3 is they just received the Holy Spirit and were about to go out and evangelize the known world, AKA, the Roman Empire, a task Paul later declared they accomplished. They knew that they were living in the last days of their age, and their country. They knew the temple was soon going to fall and that Israel would cease being God's Chosen Exclusive people. This point is found repeatedly such as in Heb 1:1-2. It was also in all their sacred writings. They knew that their days as a nation were coming to an end. Thus Acts 3 was directed at the Jews. If you recall, they were first commanded to preach only to the Jews (Mat 10:5). Recall also that Jesus said He didn't come to bring peace but a sword. He came to divide Israel into believing and unbelieving. He turned that nation upside down making fanatics out of His believers and enraging those who refused to acknowledge Him. Christ turned father against son, brother against brother, etc, or at least faith in Him did.

Salvation is from the Jews (John 4:22) but it has been opened up to everyone. I'm not Jewish either. Romans 10 discusses how we (the Church) and Gentile are grafted in with the believing Jews. Before 70 AD, God was known in the world as "the God of the Jews." Now He is known as the Creator and God of everyone. We are equal partakers of all His blessings, once reserved for just Israel.

You speak of "striving against the inevitable, vainly grasping for the return of Christ." The Rapture is a relatively new concept in the church introduced in the 1830s by Darby and didn't start to gain popularity until the 1920s. Since then it has become a main tenant in most Christian circles, especially in the USA and to countries evangelized by the USA. Dozens of Christian leaders have predicted Christs' return and dated it, each to have been proven wrong. The "Rapture" is escapism. For 2,000 years Christians have been dying and then going to heaven. The Rapture teaches that they are body-less souls or spirits waiting in limbo for an imminent return of Christ that is 2,000 years and counting. In their view, Peter and Paul and the early martyrs are still waiting for a body. What good is being in heaven if you can sense any of it? Preterists teach that when one dies, they are immediately taken to heaven as a spiritual complete being. You will recognize family and friends and be able to talk to them, see them and hang out with them. You will be able to eat food and drink even if the body doesn't need it. You will see Jesus. The Rapturist view makes that impossible. The only appealing thing about the Rapture idea is that some generation gets to skip physical death which totally violates Heb 9:27 and the teachings of Paul.

Why should our generation deserve to skip death over any generation before or after ours; is it because we survived some boogieman AntiChrist? Most rapturists think they escape this as well. The preterist view has all of this in the past with nothing ahead to fear. We live our lives with joy knowing God sits on the throne and is in control. We get to live our full amount of days, not taken as a child or infant in a rapture, then when we die we are 100% with God in heaven enjoying everything. We are not 66.6% of a person not able to take it all in. You need a body with senses. The futurist denies we have one.

I think the futurist view is very depressing, waiting and waiting and wondering if and when. What joy can we have knowing the living hell our unsaved family and friends will endure after we are raptured? I'm very happy on my side of the fence and was so scared and paranoid the 50 years I was on their side.

 

[PlainWord]

I am leaning toward preterist/idealist myself, and the way I view it is that we should view Revelation and prophesies the same way we view pretty much any other Epistle or Biblical narrative: that the actual message or events happened back then, but we need to apply those same principles today. Daniel and the Lion's Den happened back then, but the story still applies to us today, and thus it is in the Bible. "Do not muzzle the ox while he is thrashing grain": most of us do not deal with oxen on a day-to-day basis today, but the command still applies to us today in some form or fashion. Likewise, the events of Revelation and Matthew 24 which have partly...mostly...unfolded, we should understand and apply appropriately in our own Christian life. That's why I say I regard myself as somewhat of a mixed preterist/idealist.

Also, it is not the end of prophecy. The Church had no New Testament or Revelation back then: instead they got letters from the Apostles, along with a lot of noise from false teachers. We should reasonably expect the same to happen to us in our own time of trouble. We don't always get the benefit of an inerrant canon, to decide for us what is indeed a word from God. Figuring out what comes from God and what doesn't is up to us, and our own pursuit of God. Exactly as the early Church had to do. Even from a preterist view, that lesson from Revelation sounds loud and clear.

Good for you. I wanted to add, my brother believes in a future world-wide great tribulation like all the futurists. 35 years ago, he quit his job and moved his family of 6 to northern Maine. He has a gun in every room and a stock pile of wood and food to survive the inevitable. They barely get by. His kids have grown and moved but he and his wife still live up there in the middle of nowhere, all because of a false belief system. This stuff used to drive me crazy too when I believed like this. Now I enjoy life to the fullest. I'm prudent because we live in crazy times, so I'm heavily armed and have enough food to last awhile but I'm not worried about being asked to take a chip in my head or hand or any of that other nonsense.

 

[PlainWord]

Again, you are basing your idea on the wording in 2Th1:7 which I've explained in the past, says,

"ye who are troubled REST/REPOSE with us IN THE REVELATION OF the Lord Jesus from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire INFLICTING VENGEANCE on those who do not know God and do not obey [/heed] the gospel of our Lord Jesus."


[compare this ^ with: "because you have kept 'THE WORD OF the patient-endurance of Me'" (versus "the hour of trial" they are said to be "kept OUT OF" [that is, kept out-of the time-period itself])]

Both are correct. If you recall from Luke 21 Christians were told to leave when they saw armies surround Jerusalem. Okay, that's Jerusalem. The Thessalonians who were in Thessalonika didn't have to worry about the Roman soldiers surrounding them unless they went to Jerusalem for the Passover, as many Jewish believing Christians did. If you read Acts 17, you will see that the Church of the Thessalonians was under severe persecution from other unbelieving Jews. These Jews would for sure return to Jerusalem for the major feasts like Passover. The Romans allowed them in but wouldn't let them leave to put a strain on their supplies. Jerusalem's population swelled to 5X the normal. Thus God gathered all the Tares into one place to be burned.

Thus the Thessalonians who remained in Thessalonika got their rest from persecution when the persecuting Jews left and did not return. These same persecuting Jews died in the great tribulation of the siege.

According to Josephus and Eusebius, all Christians escaped over the mountains to Pella and not one died.