First Word of Jesus was repent

[Diakonos]

Disregard post #80...

Do you mean to say that the substance of the Son of God was once not a person?

I‘m saying that the Father’s logos was not another person who was with him prior to ”it” becoming a person.

Do you believe that the Son of God has always been a person?

The Father’s logos was active in the OT.

At the end of John 8, Jesus conveyed to the Jews that He and Abraham met in person. Was that the logos of the Father or of Jesus in the OT?

Prior to the incarnation (John 1:14), the logos is something else.

What Scripture supports the idea that the Father's logos was something else before Jesus' incarnation? Where would you even get that idea from?

John is telling us that the word of God became Jesus.

So the word of God became the Son of God?

 

[Magenta]

what a cop out to the scripture in Matthew. It says: 'from then on (after being tempted in the wilderness) Jesus began to preach "Repent, because the Kingdom of Heaven has come near".

In John 1, the first words Jesus speaks are, “What do you want?”

In Mark, Jesus' first words are, “The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!”

In Luke, Jesus' first words are, “Why were you searching for me?” he asked. “Didn’t you know I had to be in my Father’s house?"

 

[Mattathias]

Do you believe that the Son of God has always been a person?

Yes.

At the end of John 8, Jesus conveyed to the Jews that He and Abraham met in person. Was that the logos of the Father or of Jesus in the OT?

I presume that you’re referring to John 8:56-58. If so, I don’t agree with your premise.

“Abraham your father rejoiced to see my day, and he saw it and was glad.“

(Jesus, John 8:56)

Jesus didn’t say that he and Abraham met in person. He said that Abraham saw his day.

“All the previous lightening flashes pale into significance before the blaze of this passage. When Jesus said to the Jews that Abraham rejoiced to see his day, he was talking language that they could understand. The Jews had many beliefs about Abraham which would enable them to see what Jesus was implying. There were altogether five different ways in which they could interpret this passage.

(a) Abraham was living in Paradise and able to see what was happening on earth. Jesus used that idea in the Parable of Dives and Lazarus (Luke 16:22-31). That is the simplest way to interpret this saying.

(b) But that is not the correct interpretation. Jesus said Abraham rejoiced to see my day, the past tense. The Jews interpreted many passages of scripture in a way that explains this. ‘By you all the families of the earth shall bless themselves,’ and said that when the promise was made, Abraham knew that it meant that the Messiah of God was to come from his line and rejoiced at the magnificence of the promise.

(c) Some of the Rabbis held that in Genesis 15:8-21 Abraham was given a vision of the whole future of the nation of Israel and therefore had a vision beforehand of the time when the Messiah would come.

(d) Some of the Rabbis took Genesis 17:17, which tells how Abraham laughed when he heard that a son would be born to him, not as a laugh of unbelief, but as a laugh of sheer joy that from him the Messiah would come.

(e) Some of the Rabbis had a fanciful interpretation of Genesis 24:1. There the Revised Standard Version has it that Abraham was ‘well advanced in years. The margin of the Authorized Version tells us that the Hebrew literally means that Abraham had ‘gone into days.’ Some of the Rabbis held that to mean that in a vision given by God Abraham had entered into the days which lay ahead, and had seen the whole history of the people and the coming of the Messiah.

From all this we see clearly that the Jews did believe somehow Abraham, while he was still alive, had a vision of the history of Israel and the coming of the Messiah. So when Jesus said that Abraham had seen his day, he was making a deliberate claim that he was the Messiah. He was really saying: I am the Messiah Abraham saw in his vision...

To us these ideas are strange, to a Jew they were quite normal, for he believed that Abraham had already seen the day when Messiah would come.

The Jews, although they knew better, chose to take this literally...”

(William Barclay, The Gospel of John, Vol. 2, pp. 34, 35, 36)

So, Jesus is claiming to be the Messiah. As children of Abraham they should have believed him. They didn’t.

”The Jews said to him, ‘You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?’”

(John 8:57)

As I pointed out, Jesus didn’t say that he had seen Abraham. He said that Abraham had seen the Messianic age, long before the Messianic age actually arrived. The Jews, as they so often did, misunderstood him. In their anger and continued rejection of his messianic claim, they thought he was a madman claiming to be a contemporary of Abraham.

“Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.’”

(John 8:58)

The unbelieving Jews thought Abraham was superior to Jesus. The opposite is true. Jesus was destined to be the Messiah reinforces his Messianic claims to be greater than Abraham; he was destined to be the Messiah promised by God before Abraham was born.

“Jesus has been emphasizing his Messianic claim. He does not say that before Abraham was born the logos existed, he says ’I am.’ It is Jesus the Messiah, Jesus the man whom the Father had consecrated to the Messianic work who speaks. Just before this he had spoken of ‘my day,’ which Abraham saw (John 8:56), by which we must understand the historical appearance of Jesus as Messiah. Abraham had seen this, virtually seen it in God’s promise of a seed (Gen 12:3; 15:4-5) and had greeted it from afar (Heb 11:13). And now it is this one who consciously realizes the distant vision of Abraham who says, ‘Before Abraham was born, I am.’ Jesus, therefore, seems to affirm that his historic personality existed before Abraham was born. If that be the case, then its existence before Abraham must be thought of as ideal.”

(G. H. Gilbert, The Revelation of Jesus: A Study of the Primary Sources of Christianity, 214, 215)

 

[Mattathias]

What Scripture supports the idea that the Father's logos was something else before Jesus' incarnation? Where would you even get that idea from?

It’s not my idea. I see it nowhere supported in scripture. I’ve been speaking about the incarnation of the Father’s logos, not an incarnation of Jesus.

So the word of God became the Son of God?

Yes, when the word of God became flesh.

 

[Mattathias]

You have your own distinct logos. (Everyone does.) Is your own logos an “it” or a “he”?

Is your own logos an “it” or a “he,” Diakonos?

 

[Diakonos]

Yes.



I presume that you’re referring to John 8:56-58. If so, I don’t agree with your premise.

“Abraham your father rejoiced to see my day, and he saw it and was glad.“

(Jesus, John 8:56)

Jesus didn’t say that he and Abraham met in person. He said that Abraham saw his day.

“All the previous lightening flashes pale into significance before the blaze of this passage. When Jesus said to the Jews that Abraham rejoiced to see his day, he was talking language that they could understand. The Jews had many beliefs about Abraham which would enable them to see what Jesus was implying. There were altogether five different ways in which they could interpret this passage.

(a) Abraham was living in Paradise and able to see what was happening on earth. Jesus used that idea in the Parable of Dives and Lazarus (Luke 16:22-31). That is the simplest way to interpret this saying.

(b) But that is not the correct interpretation. Jesus said Abraham rejoiced to see my day, the past tense. The Jews interpreted many passages of scripture in a way that explains this. ‘By you all the families of the earth shall bless themselves,’ and said that when the promise was made, Abraham knew that it meant that the Messiah of God was to come from his line and rejoiced at the magnificence of the promise.

(c) Some of the Rabbis held that in Genesis 15:8-21 Abraham was given a vision of the whole future of the nation of Israel and therefore had a vision beforehand of the time when the Messiah would come.

(d) Some of the Rabbis took Genesis 17:17, which tells how Abraham laughed when he heard that a son would be born to him, not as a laugh of unbelief, but as a laugh of sheer joy that from him the Messiah would come.

(e) Some of the Rabbis had a fanciful interpretation of Genesis 24:1. There the Revised Standard Version has it that Abraham was ‘well advanced in years. The margin of the Authorized Version tells us that the Hebrew literally means that Abraham had ‘gone into days.’ Some of the Rabbis held that to mean that in a vision given by God Abraham had entered into the days which lay ahead, and had seen the whole history of the people and the coming of the Messiah.

From all this we see clearly that the Jews did believe somehow Abraham, while he was still alive, had a vision of the history of Israel and the coming of the Messiah. So when Jesus said that Abraham had seen his day, he was making a deliberate claim that he was the Messiah. He was really saying: I am the Messiah Abraham saw in his vision...

To us these ideas are strange, to a Jew they were quite normal, for he believed that Abraham had already seen the day when Messiah would come.

The Jews, although they knew better, chose to take this literally...”

(William Barclay, The Gospel of John, Vol. 2, pp. 34, 35, 36)

So, Jesus is claiming to be the Messiah. As children of Abraham they should have believed him. They didn’t.

”The Jews said to him, ‘You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?’”

(John 8:57)

As I pointed out, Jesus didn’t say that he had seen Abraham. He said that Abraham had seen the Messianic age, long before the Messianic age actually arrived. The Jews, as they so often did, misunderstood him. In their anger and continued rejection of his messianic claim, they thought he was a madman claiming to be a contemporary of Abraham.

“Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.’”

(John 8:58)

The unbelieving Jews thought Abraham was superior to Jesus. The opposite is true. Jesus was destined to be the Messiah reinforces his Messianic claims to be greater than Abraham; he was destined to be the Messiah promised by God before Abraham was born.

“Jesus has been emphasizing his Messianic claim. He does not say that before Abraham was born the logos existed, he says ’I am.’ It is Jesus the Messiah, Jesus the man whom the Father had consecrated to the Messianic work who speaks. Just before this he had spoken of ‘my day,’ which Abraham saw (John 8:56), by which we must understand the historical appearance of Jesus as Messiah. Abraham had seen this, virtually seen it in God’s promise of a seed (Gen 12:3; 15:4-5) and had greeted it from afar (Heb 11:13). And now it is this one who consciously realizes the distant vision of Abraham who says, ‘Before Abraham was born, I am.’ Jesus, therefore, seems to affirm that his historic personality existed before Abraham was born. If that be the case, then its existence before Abraham must be thought of as ideal.”

(G. H. Gilbert, The Revelation of Jesus: A Study of the Primary Sources of Christianity, 214, 215)

This is very insightful. I haven't considered these interpretations of that passage. However, this list missed the most likely scenario Jesus was referring to when He affirmed their question "you are not yet 50 years old and You have seen Abraham?":
Genesis 14 (Melchizadek- the king and priest of El Shaddai). Given that God forbade that any man could fulfill the role of King and Priest simultaneously, this intrigues serious student of Scripture as to the nature of this Melchizadek. The Hebrew writer tells us that Melchizedek has "neither beginning of days nor end of life, but resembling the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually". This is what the Theologians call a "Theophany". Since Jesus told us that "No one has ever seen the Father" (except Jesus, Himself), we know that all Theophanies were manifestations of the 2nd person of the Trinity (pre-incarnate appearances of Jesus).
So far, this has been the best Biblical explanation of this. But I will study out the list you gave me and show myself approved, lest I have strayed doctrinally in someway. Thank you for your input.

It’s not my idea. I see it nowhere supported in scripture. I’ve been speaking about the incarnation of the Father’s logos, not an incarnation of Jesus.

Yes, when the word of God became flesh

Jesus either had a permanent body before His incarnation or He didn't. I'm going to say that He didn't....that means that Jesus became flesh at His incarnation. I don't see how someone wouldn't put two and two together.

The Son of God became flesh and dwelt among us.
= Jesus is the logos?
The logos became flesh and dwelt among us.

Is your own logos an “it” or a “he,” Diakonos?

That's like asking if my spirit is it or a he...it is who I am. The real me is unseen, this body is a shell.

The Greek from BDAG defines λόγος here in John 1:1 is defined as:

"the independent personified expression of God, the Logos. Our literature shows traces of a way of thinking that was widespread in contemporary syncretism, as well as in Jewish wisdom literature and Philo, the most prominent feature of which is the concept of the Logos, the independent, personified ‘Word’ (of God)"
(Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 601). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.)

And by the way, BDAG is the most revered and most authoritative Greek dictionary known. And it cites this very verse as an affirmation of its meaning in John 1:1.

 

[dcontroversal]

False......first words of Jesus were...

And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?

 

[Mattathias]

...this list missed the most likely scenario Jesus was referring to when He affirmed their question "you are not yet 50 years old and You have seen Abraham?":

John tells us why he wrote his Gospel in John 20:31 - his purpose is to persuade his readers to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God. I think that‘s precisely what Jesus was trying to persuade the crowd to believe about himself.

I will study out the list you gave me and show myself approved, lest I have strayed doctrinally in someway. Thank you for your input.

You‘re welcome. That’s an expression of the highly commendable Berean attitude we should all have.

That's like asking if my spirit is it or a he...it is who I am.

That’s right. You are one person. When your spirit is grieved, for example, it is not another person who is being grieved, it is you that is being grieved.

The Greek from BDAG defines λόγος here in John 1:1 is defined as:

"the independent personified expression of God, the Logos. Our literature shows traces of a way of thinking that was widespread in contemporary syncretism, as well as in Jewish wisdom literature and Philo, the most prominent feature of which is the concept of the Logos, the independent, personified ‘Word’ (of God)"
(Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 601). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.)

That’s an important point. Personification isn’t a second person with the Father. John isn’t speaking about the Son of God in John 1:1-5. He is speaking about the Father.

John moves from personification to person when he tells us that the word became flesh. When did the word become flesh? When Jesus was begotten by God/conceived by the virgin, in the womb of his mother. This then is the parallel in John with the birth narratives in Matthew 1 and Luke 1.

 

[Diakonos]

When did the word become flesh? When Jesus was begotten by God/conceived by the virgin, in the womb of his mother.

Jesus was begotten on the day of His resurrection, not His incarnation.
““I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to Me, ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.” (Psalm 2:7).
That would be the day of His resurrection, brother

 

[Mattathias]

Jesus was begotten on the day of His resurrection, not His incarnation.
““I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to Me, ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.” (Psalm 2:7).
That would be the day of His resurrection, brother

Doesn’t begetting (the role of a father in producing a child) occur at the time of conception (the role of a mother in producing a child)?

I’ve located the word becoming flesh at the time of Jesus’ conception in Mary. Where and when do you locate the word becoming flesh?

 

[garee]

Doesn’t begetting (the role of a father in producing a child) occur at the time of conception (the role of a mother in producing a child)?

I’ve located the word becoming flesh at the time of Jesus’ conception in Mary. Where and when do you locate the word becoming flesh?

With the Son of man its the propmised time of revealing the promise .(Isaiah 53)

Speaking of earthly fathers the time of conception ...yes. But the Son of God was not created. The Son of God has no beginning of spirit life .He remains without mother or father.

In that way we call no man on earth Father. Mothers brothers and sisters yes. Father no . That "attribute" of God is mixed with the Son of man .Two are needed to demonstrate the unseen work of one God .

The word became flesh or is demonstrated by the flesh. The word that came from father was placed in on the fleshly lips of his prophet and apostle Jesus.

Jesus did not do the will of his corrupted flesh .It was powerless and he of his own flesh clearly informs us it profits from absolutely nothing. His word is Spirit and spirit giving or life giving.

 

[garee]

Is your own logos an “it” or a “he,” Diakonos?

The unseen faith of he, it works in us to both will and do his good pleasure. Making our burden lighter.

Words he put on the mouth of his prophet and apostle Jesus .Living abiding words that rebuked the spirit of error , as it is written

Again and again as it is written .Three times struck him out and he fled

 

[Mattathias]

With the Son of man its the propmised time of revealing the promise .(Isaiah 53)

Speaking of earthly fathers the time of conception ...yes. But the Son of God was not created. The Son of God has no beginning of spirit life .He remains without mother or father.

In that way we call no man on earth Father. Mothers brothers and sisters yes. Father no . That "attribute" of God is mixed with the Son of man .Two are needed to demonstrate the unseen work of one God .

The word became flesh or is demonstrated by the flesh. The word that came from father was placed in on the fleshly lips of his prophet and apostle Jesus.

Jesus did not do the will of his corrupted flesh .It was powerless and he of his own flesh clearly informs us it profits from absolutely nothing. His word is Spirit and spirit giving or life giving.

“But when he thought on these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.”

(Matthew 1:20)

”And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee: wherefore also the holy thing which is begotten shall be called the Son of God.”

(Luke 1:35)

The birth narratives in Matthew and Luke record that Jesus was begotten and conceived.

I don’t understand your position that “the Son of God remains without mother and father.”

God is his father. Joseph is his legal father. Mary is his mother.

 

[garee]

“But when he thought on these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.”

(Matthew 1:20)

”And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee: wherefore also the holy thing which is begotten shall be called the Son of God.”

(Luke 1:35)

The birth narratives in Matthew and Luke record that Jesus was begotten and conceived.

I don’t understand your position that “the Son of God remains without mother and father.”

God is his father. Joseph is his legal father. Mary is his mother.

Hi thanks for the reply. I can try. Sorry in advance for the rambling.

In the end the peace of God that works in us with us does surpass our understanding. Giving us a living hope beyond all hope. But not without no mystery

God is the spiritual father of all believers .We all have earthly fathers DNA. Joseph as was supposed the father. Following the line of Heli. a mystery not revealed Luke 3:23

Son of God a attribute of God .It is the Spirit of Christ that worked in and with the Son of man, Jesus the prophet, apostle.

The same spirit that works in our earthen bodies. The Spirit of our living Hope that promises us new bodies .

Hebrews 7 King James Version (KJV) For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

Melchezedek was used as a theophany to represent the Son of man, Jesus .But real flesh typified as sinful was needed to do what the letter of the law death could no , bring new spirit life.. A theophany could not be used .Yet he knew no sin .

The Son of man did not do his own will but that of the father .Again without error a perfect sacrifice. It was needed in the propmised outward demonstration of the father and Son working as one God (Isaiah 53) . In order to introduce the law of faith .God not seen working in the human affairs', as our daily bread. the kind of food which at first the disciples knew not of.

Luke 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

The spirit and power of Elias (Holy Spirit) worked in John the Baptist the last Levi empowering John to introduce the the new order of priesthood men and woman from all the nations of the world. From the tribe of Judah . Again the power that worked in Jesus the Son of man.

Salvation is not reckoned by the things seen . The flesh is needed in the demonstration .But it has no power of its own being corrupted as it carries out the first death, by the letter of the law.

In that way there is no such thing as the holiness of flesh.

Romans 1:3-5 King James Version (KJV) Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed (DNA) of David according to the flesh; And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

No power coming from the corrupted flesh. God is not a man

 

[Carissa19]

Maybe to repent is to always come back to the conscience and the listening of the Holy Spirit within that sparks us perhaps to feel more guilty when we sin and renews us spiritual cleansing. not necessarily perfection but the Soul's Attention to the Lord

 

[Carissa19]

God cannot be seen. Jesus is the image visible to Man, of the Lord and Father of eternity. Do you not realise that the reason Jesus was Sinless is because he is Both God and Man. Only one God there is to be worshipped. One Lord. One King. And his grace and mercy on that Cross as our Saviour is everything we need to help our spirit and soul renew if we continually seek receive and take of it. its about the Soul's attention and understanding and seeking with an open heart .this must go before perfection

 

[Diakonos]

Doesn’t begetting (the role of a father in producing a child) occur at the time of conception (the role of a mother in producing a child)?

"Beget" has 2 definitions.

1. It can mean "to bring into existence by the process of reproduction"
e.g. "they hoped that the King might beget an heir by his new queen"

2. It can mean "to give rise to; bring about".
e.g. "success begets further success"

So if "begotten" is referring to a created person, then yes, your definition is appropriate. But remember, the members of the Trinity are uncreated.
Yes, the body of Jesus was conceived and formed in the womb of Mary in the incarnation (when the word became flesh), but the person of Jesus (The Son of God) is uncreated, divine, and eternal.

Scripturally, how would you connect the begotteness of Jesus with His incarnation?

 

[Mattathias]

"Beget" has 2 definitions.

1. It can mean "to bring into existence by the process of reproduction"
e.g. "they hoped that the King might beget an heir by his new queen"

2. It can mean "to give rise to; bring about".
e.g. "success begets further success"

So if "begotten" is referring to a created person, then yes, your definition is appropriate. But remember, the members of the Trinity are uncreated.
Yes, the body of Jesus was conceived and formed in the womb of Mary in the incarnation (when the word became flesh), but the person of Jesus (The Son of God) is uncreated, divine, and eternal.

Scripturally, how would you connect the begotteness of Jesus with His incarnation?

I don’t see any scriptural connection between the begotteness of Jesus and an incarnation of Jesus. They seem. to be incompatible concepts.

My understanding from reading the birth narratives is that Mary conceived a human person, Jesus (in the womb), not a body (in the womb for a non-human Jesus to enter from outside the womb at some point prior to birth).

 

[Kolistus]

3. Colossians 1 attributes the new creation, not the Genesis creation, to Jesus.

No.
It says were and are created past tense. It goes to say ALL THINGS were created through Him and for Him.

 

[Blik]

Maybe to repent is to always come back to the conscience and the listening of the Holy Spirit within that sparks us perhaps to feel more guilty when we sin and renews us spiritual cleansing. not necessarily perfection but the Soul's Attention to the Lord

I don't think repenting is that complicated at all. It is simply giving our sin to the Lord to be forgiven of it and deciding we don't want to sin any more. It can be defined as turning away, going in another direction. The fact that we can't achieve perfection through our own works is a separate fact and shouldn't enter into our repentance,