The absurdity and heresy of Preterism

[Truth7t7]

No one ever taught me. When the Lord first called me, I was immediately drawn to end-time events and have been studying it to this very day. I live in the book of Revelation. I know what I am talking about and what I'm contending for. I have reiterated over and over more times than I can count these truths, but people will not budge from the false teachings that they have adopted. But instead they utilize already exiting false apologetics or make up new ones. No matter which way anyone slices it, they cannot get past the underlying principle, that because Christ already took upon himself God's wrath that every believer deserves, satisfying it completely, then the wrath of God no longer rests upon the believer and therefore cannot go through the time of God's coming wrath. It is a legal precedent. And since God's wrath must be poured out right up to Christ's return to the earth to end the age, then the church cannot and will not enter that time of wrath and must be removed prior to the first seal being opened which initiates God's wrath.


C |-------------------------------------- CHURCH IN HEAVEN AT THE WEDDING FEAST ---------------------------------|
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C
H |<----------------------------------------------- G O D 'S W R A T H ------------------------------------------------------->| -- CHRIST RETURNS
|<-------------------------------------S E A L S / T R U M P E T S / B O W L S------------------------------------------->| -- TO END THE AGE
G |<---------------------------------------------- S E V E N Y E A R S ------------------------------------------------------->| -- SATAN BOUND IN ABYSS
A
T
H
E
R
E
D





Matthew 24:29-31 is the event of the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and is not the gathering of the church, which are two separate events. In fact, the church/bride will be with the Lord following Him our of heaven to the earth riding on white horses:

"For the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His bride (church) has made herself ready. She was given clothing of fine linen, bright and pure.”

"The armies of heaven, dressed in fine linen, white and pure, follow Him on white horses."

"They (beast and ten kings) will wage war against the Lamb (as He's descending to earth), but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

The called, chosen and faithful followers, will be those who will have previously been resurrected and caught up.

"And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his saints,"



No, but you are teaching false teachings, claiming that the church is going to go through God's wrath and thereby denying that Christ took upon himself God's wrath on our behalf, satisfying it completely. By your teaching, the appearing of the Lord to gather His church would be no blessed hope at all. And there would be no reason for believers to comfort each other with the promise of the Lord's appearing and that because you have us going through the same wrath as the wicked. Yet God does not punish the righteous with the wicked, but you have Him doing so by your belief.



That the pre-trib teaching didn't appear until the 1820's is ridiculous, because I came to my conclusion reading the word of God. Therefore, this teaching appeared in the word of God way before 1820. All that you are doing is repeating a well-known false teaching with Scofield as the culprit who invented the pretribulation gathering of the church. Well, I've never read anything by Scofield and so I didn't get it from Him. Until you and others understand the underlying principle, you will not understand why the church must and will be gathered prior to God's wrath being poured out. As it is, you have a poor outlook on what Christ accomplished on our behalf. By your belief, you're basically saying 'yes' and 'no' in the same breath.

Make no mistake, this is not a minor issue.


God's wrath satisfied
========================================================
Surely He took on our infirmities and carried our sorrows;
yet we considered Him stricken by God, struck down and afflicted.
But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed.

In love, it's you who dosent budge from dispensationalism's grip, I followed the false teaching for 20 years, sitting in the Baptist churches pew shouting amen!

I didn't have a clue who John N. Darby or C.I. Scofield were, or anything about their foundations in the false teachings of a pre-trib rapture, dual Covenant Theology, or millennialism.

I'm sure you believe in Moses/Aaron and the plagues of Egypt, and you believe the Hebrews were separated from these plagues, as none fell upon the Hebrews as I do?

I'm sure you believe the "Two Witnesses" will be present during the tribulation, bringing "Plagues/Wrath" upon the world as seen in the Revelation as I do, however you continue claim that if the church were present, that the "Plagues/Wrath" seen will fall upon the believer, giving complete disregard to God's miraculous power as seen in the Exodus?

Gods words below clearly teaches that the plagues/Wrath/judgement falls upon the wicked, as you give complete disregard to this truth.

Do you believe these plagues/Wrath/judgement will come upon the 144,000 and the tribulation saints that you believe will be present during the tribulation?

Cant you see the conflict in your teaching, the church isn't the (Men, They, Them) seen below?

God will divinely protect (The Church) in the tribulation from the plagues/Wrath/judgement, just as the Hebrews were protected in the Exodus.

Revelation 16:1-11KJV
16 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

In love, it's you who dosent budge from dispensationalism's grip, I followed the false teaching for 20 years, sitting in the Baptist churches pew shouting amen!
I didn't have a clue who John N. Darby or C.I. Scofield were, or anything about their foundations in the false teachings of a pre-trib rapture, dual Covenant Theology, or millennialism.

No one is espousing John Hagee's take on things, here.

I'm sure you believe in Moses/Aaron and the plagues of Egypt, and you believe the Hebrews were separated from these plagues, as none fell upon the Hebrews as I do?

I'm sure you believe the "Two Witnesses" will be present during the tribulation, bringing "Plagues/Wrath" upon the world as seen in the Revelation as I do, however you continue claim that if the church were present, that the "Plagues/Wrath" seen will fall upon the believer, giving complete disregard to God's miraculous power as seen in the Exodus?
Gods words below clearly teaches that the plagues/Wrath/judgement falls upon the wicked, as you give complete disregard to this truth.
Do you believe these plagues/Wrath/judgement will come upon the 144,000 and the tribulation saints that you believe will be present during the tribulation?

There will be tribulation "SAINTS" existing on the earth in/during the trib years (who will come to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture'), but these are not identified as "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (who will already have been raptured well-before the First Seal commences to unfold upon the earth during that future, limited, time-period OF JUDGMENTS [for 7-yrs]).

Paul supplies the SEQUENCE (how ONE THING "fits" IN RELATION TO [time-wise] the OTHER THING [the time period OF JUDGMENTS unfolding upon the earth])

[along with this, COMPARE ALSO the text of Rev13:5-7,1 with Daniel 7:20-25, esp. v.21!]

Cant you see the conflict in your teaching, the church isn't the (Men, They, Them) seen below?
God will divinely protect (The Church) in the tribulation from the plagues/Wrath/judgement, just as the Hebrews were protected in the Exodus.

The "pictures" of Noah and Lot supplied by Jesus [not that they were "pictures" only, mind you, they were indeed REAL!] are not illustrative of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (Enoch [ONE MAN] was... who was taken up BEFORE the flood JUDGMENT came upon the earth, see ).

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ EDIT: "[along with this, COMPARE ALSO the text of Rev13:5-7,1 with Daniel 7:20-25, esp. v.21! (context: DURING the trib yrs): "the same horn made war with the saints, AND PREVAILED AGAINST them"... now read again Matt16:18 "SHALL NOT prevail against it!"]

 

[Truth7t7]

Matthew 24:29-31 is the event of the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and is not the gathering of the church, which are two separate events. In fact, the church/bride will be with the Lord following Him our of heaven to the earth riding on white horses:

"For the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His bride (church) has made herself ready. She was given clothing of fine linen, bright and pure.”

"The armies of heaven, dressed in fine linen, white and pure, follow Him on white horses."

"They (beast and ten kings) will wage war against the Lamb (as He's descending to earth), but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

The called, chosen and faithful followers, will be those who will have previously been resurrected and caught up.

"And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his saints,"



No, but you are teaching false teachings, claiming that the church is going to go through God's wrath and thereby denying that Christ took upon himself God's wrath on our behalf, satisfying it completely. By your teaching, the appearing of the Lord to gather His church would be no blessed hope at all. And there would be no reason for believers to comfort each other with the promise of the Lord's appearing and that because you have us going through the same wrath as the wicked. Yet God does not punish the righteous with the wicked, but you have Him doing so by your belief.



That the pre-trib teaching didn't appear until the 1820's is ridiculous, because I came to my conclusion reading the word of God. Therefore, this teaching appeared in the word of God way before 1820. All that you are doing is repeating a well-known false teaching with Scofield as the culprit who invented the pretribulation gathering of the church. Well, I've never read anything by Scofield and so I didn't get it from Him. Until you and others understand the underlying principle, you will not understand why the church must and will be gathered prior to God's wrath being poured out. As it is, you have a poor outlook on what Christ accomplished on our behalf. By your belief, you're basically saying 'yes' and 'no' in the same breath.

Make no mistake, this is not a minor issue.


God's wrath satisfied
========================================================
Surely He took on our infirmities and carried our sorrows;
yet we considered Him stricken by God, struck down and afflicted.
But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed.

You falsely suggest that Matthew 24:29-31 is a return of Jesus Christ with a mortal Millennial Kingdom on earth following, 100% Error, the entire chapter is devoted to the "Second Coming", with verse 51 showing the (Final Judgement)

Gods word is very clear as presented, Jesus Christ will return in "Final Judgement" as Matthew 24:51 below clearly shows, the wicked are judged to the eternal lake of fire, weeping and gnashing of teeth

(Final Judgement)

Matthew 24:46-51KJV
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Parallel Teaching, (Final Judgement)

Luke 13:25-28KJV
25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

You falsely suggest that Matthew 24:29-31 is a return of Jesus Christ with a mortal Millennial Kingdom on earth following, 100% Error, the entire chapter is devoted to the "Second Coming"
Gods word is very clear as presented, Jesus Christ will return in "Final Judgement" as Matthew 24:51 below clearly shows, the wicked are judged to the eternal lake of fire, weeping and gnashing of teeth

(Final Judgement)
Matthew 24:46-51KJV
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Parallel Teaching, (Final Judgement)
Luke 13:25-28KJV
25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

This is parallel with the FIRST of the TWO "PUNISH" words in Isaiah 24:21-22[23]... then a TIME-PERIOD *follows* that, before the SECOND of the TWO "PUNISH" words (of that passage) is carried out (just like in Rev19 - 20, there being).


So, this passage isn't showing the "FINAL JUDGMENT" (tho it certainly IS "FINAL" for those persons involved in it at that point in the chronology! THEY DIE! They DON'T *ENTER* the MK age!; But just like in the same way that it is FINAL upon the death of "individuals" today... there's no getting out of "eternal separation from God")... But in the matter of CHRONOLOGY, Rev19:19,21/16:14-16/20:5 parallels the FIRST of the TWO "PUNISH" words of Isa24:21-22[23]... not the SECOND (LATER) ONE!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Isaiah 24:21-22[23]'s FIRST of TWO "PUNISH" words parallels Rev19:19,21/16:14-16/20:5 (at the time of His Second Coming to the earth Rev19)... but note that a TIME-PERIOD *follows* that point, in the chronology! (SAME as in a number of other related passages!):


21 In that day the LORD will PUNISH [#1]

the host of heaven above

and the kings of the earth below [/and the kings of the earth upon the earth]. [Comp Rev19:19,21/16:14-16/20:5!]

22 They will be gathered together

like prisoners in a pit.

They will be confined to a dungeon

and punished after many days [/and AFTER MANY DAYS shall they BE PUNISHED - #2].

23 The moon will be confounded

and the sun will be ashamed;

for the LORD of Hosts will reign

on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem,

and before His elders with great glory [gloriously; note: "the throne of HIS GLORY" in Matt25:31-34, Matt19:28--this is EARTHLY-LOCATED, just like the "12 thrones" that "the 12" are slated to sit upon, "judgING the 12 tribes of Israel" then/there].

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

There are something like 7 distinct "judgments" that can be traced out (again, distinctly; some say 9, I think), but my point is, "the Sheep and goat judgment [/separation]" is NOT identical to the GWTj. They are DISTINCT.

 

[Truth7t7]

You know what's ironic? The Jews missed the first coming and the futurists missed the second coming. You are no better off then they were. I kinda think maybe this was the plan; to show the Church it can't be any more uppity than the Jews of the first century, waiting on a Messiah that already came.

The "elect" in this context are those whose lives were spared the great tribulation, approx 98,000 out of 1.2 million. If the tribulation (siege) were allowed to continue much longer no Jewish flesh inside the city would have survived.

(Full Preterism) is Heresy.

You deny a future coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens

You deny a future resurrection and the glorified body to be received by the righteous

You deny a future New Heaven and Earth

 

[Truth7t7]

This is parallel with the FIRST of the TWO "PUNISH" words in Isaiah 24:21-22[23]... then a TIME-PERIOD *follows* that, before the SECOND of the TWO "PUNISH" words (of that passage) is carried out (just like in Rev19 - 20, there being).


So, this passage isn't showing the "FINAL JUDGMENT" (tho it certainly IS "FINAL" for those persons involved in it at that point in the chronology! THEY DIE! They DON'T *ENTER* the MK age!; But just like in the same way that it is FINAL upon the death of "individuals" today... there's no getting out of "eternal separation from God")... But in the matter of CHRONOLOGY, Rev19:19,21/16:14-16/20:5 parallels the FIRST of the TWO "PUNISH" words of Isa24:21-22[23]... not the SECOND (LATER) ONE!

Your claim is false, there is one future judgement, where men are judged to the lake of fire, and this takes place at the second coming, and appearance of Jesus Christ, read and heed, don't twist and bend.

The Final Judgement

2 Timothy 2:4KJV
4 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Immediately After The Tribulation The Final Judgement Takes Place, At The Appearance Of Jesus Christ.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 24:46-51KJV
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Your claim is false, there is one future judgement, where men are judged to the lake of fire, and this takes place at the second coming, and appearance of Jesus Christ, read and heed, don't twist and bend.

I'm not "bending and twisting"... you are adding the word "FINAL" without grasping that His "JUDGMENT" (which includes His "governance"/"rule"/"reign") SPANS a GREAT LENGTH OF TIME... *including* the 7-yr trib AND the 1000-yr reign. AFTER which, is the GRTj (re: "the dead"). But you are wanting to call that "day" a "singular 24-hr day." It isn't that.

So what I am doing (and which you are not--you are ADDING the word "FINAL" where you think it should go!), what *I* am doing is taking into consideration ALL the [related] passages...

Consider the phrase "the QUICK and the DEAD" that you bring up:

--2Tim4:1

--1Pet4:5

--Acts 10:42 (IN VIEW OF what Acts 17:31 ALSO says re: the word "APPOINTED [G3724] [Judge]"... where 17:31 says, "because He has FIXED [/established] A DAY [not a singular 24-hr day!] IN WHICH He will JUDGE [G2919 (related to G2923 in 10:23!)] the world in righteousness in a Man Whom He hath APPOINTED [G3724--used ALSO in Acts 10:42!!]...")


All of the [multiple] "JUDGMENTS" [including "governance"/"rule"/"reigning"] will SPAN a VERY LONG DURATION of time!

This is what the "IN WHICH" refers to...

... in the same way that the "IN WHICH" of 2Pet3:1-12 is not to be viewed SOLELY in light of Isaiah 34:4 (one verse extracted from its TWO - CHAPTER CONTEXT--read BOTH of these chapters, to ascertain what Peter is referring to by using 34:4! I already posted about the 3x "dissolved" is used, but doesn't mean what *you* are attaching to it. [and the "amill-teachings" attaches to it])

The Final Judgement [ ]
2 Timothy 2:4KJV
4 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
Immediately After The Tribulation The Final Judgement Takes Place, At The Appearance Of Jesus Christ.
Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 24:46-51KJV
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ EDIT to correct references: should read "2Peter3:10-12" and "[Acts]10:42" [not "23"] ... lol


(Too-much Typing Today )

 

[acts5_29]

Consider the following few points (to be brief) [and to be clear, both of these distinct groups are "SAVED" persons, existing on the earth in the trib years]:
”

That is over-reading it. These are what we THINK to be two distinct groups of saved people, but not really. Whether saved from a previous life of Jew or Gentile, we all live under one umbrella: that of Christ. But because we treat these groups as different so often, John had the need to spell out both groups. Just as Paul was a Jew to the Jew, and Gentile to the Gentile. He becomes all things for Christ.

Also, your belief that the Great Multitude of Revelation 7 is on the earth on the grounds that they serve in the Temple day and night (and that there is no Temple in Heaven), that doesn't compute, because the Temple is supposed to be desecrated with the Abomination of Desolation. According to this timeline. The people of God are supposed to be fled to the hills. The idea that the Gentiles are supposed to worship in the Temple day and night and not the Jews is also a bit odd.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

That is over-reading it. These are what we THINK to be two distinct groups of saved people, but not really. Whether saved from a previous life of Jew or Gentile, we all live under one umbrella: that of Christ. But because we treat these groups as different so often, John had the need to spell out both groups. Just as Paul was a Jew to the Jew, and Gentile to the Gentile. He becomes all things for Christ.

Only in "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" is there no distinction (considered neither Jew or Gentile, in our standing before God "IN CHRIST"); AFTER our Rapture, there will again be a distinction in the trib years (this passage showing it, among others), and it is not "in this present age [singular]" that Ephesians 1:10 is speaking of (like the rest of the epistle IS speaking of), meaning, in the FUTURE, "in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth, even in him" (but presently ['in this present age'-singular], it is "the Church which is His body" made up of both Jew and Gentile but considered neither in our standing before God "IN CHRIST"... presently, see). Eph1:10 is not the "NOW".

Also, your belief that the Great Multitude of Revelation 7 is on the earth on the grounds that they serve in the Temple day and night (and that there is no Temple in Heaven), that doesn't compute, because

Well, I didn't exactly say "there is no temple in heaven"... there is: Rev11:19, 14:17, 15:5, 16:17... but we're talking "when... when what happens when in relation to what other thing"

Again, it says they are "coming out of the great tribulation"... I'm just pointing out what their "destination location" is, if you get what I mean...

the Temple is supposed to be desecrated with the Abomination of Desolation. According to this timeline. The people of God are supposed to be fled to the hills.

During the trib yrs [7], it is only "those which be in Judaea" who are to "FLEE" (not every person in the entire world... though Lk21:36 "flee out of each and every thing" will ALSO apply at that time, to those who will heed it, of course)

The idea that the Gentiles are supposed to worship in the Temple day and night and not the Jews is also a bit odd.

BRB... gotta split for a sec!

 

[acts5_29]

During the trib yrs [7], it is only "those which be in Judaea" who are to "FLEE" (not every person in the entire world... though Lk21:36 "flee out of each and every thing" will ALSO apply at that time, to those who will heed it, of course)

But that's where this alleged Third Temple is. In Judea.

 

[Ahwatukee]

People read way too much into the 144,000, on all sides. All Revelation 7 is saying is that you will find both saved Jews and Gentiles in Heaven (and probably more Gentiles).

No, nothing is being read into who the 144,000, but are exactly who the scriptures say they are, which is 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes of natural Israel, equaling 144,000. This group is the first fruits to God and the Lamb out of Israel.

The church = made up of both Jew and Gentile.

The Nation of Israel = made up of those who reject Jesus as being their Messiah

The 144,000 = The first fruits of those who come out of the unbelieving nation of Israel, recognizing Jesus as their Messiah

The Great Tribulation Saints = That group of white robed saints which no can count who become believers after the gathering of the church and during the time of God's wrath

Each of the groups above have different programs, with the last three in the list being on the earth during the tribulation period.

 

[acts5_29]

No, nothing is being read into who the 144,000, but are exactly who the scriptures say they are, which is 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes of natural Israel, equaling 144,000. This group is the first fruits to God and the Lamb out of Israel.

I cannot buy both the idea that a literal 12,000 will be saved and that man has a free will. Either one has to give, or the other. I don't buy into partial predestination, either. John's message is that Jews can be, and will be, saved. So include them in the Church and don't exclude them as "punished". Just as John says there will be even more Gentiles; so don't exclude them, either.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I cannot buy both the idea that a literal 12,000 will be saved and that man has a free will. Either one has to give, or the other. I don't buy into partial predestination, either. John's message is that Jews can be, and will be, saved. So include them in the Church and don't exclude them as "punished". Just as John says there will be even more Gentiles; so don't exclude them, either.

There is the church made up of both Jew and Gentiles. And there is the unbelieving nation of Israel. Two separate groups. It is the later that God is going to deal with during the tribulation period in fulfillment of that last seven years of the seventy sevens that was decreed upon them and Jerusalem. The 144,000 is another separate group who will come out of the unbelieving nation of Israel. This information is all confirmed by scripture.

Regarding predestination, scripture states that God foreknew us and predestined us, called us and justified us. It is God who by His Sovereign will saved some from the human race. Revelation reveals that those whom God predestined, that their names were written in the book of life before the world even began:

"And all who dwell on the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the Book of Life belonging to the Lamb who was slain."

"The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come."

So, before the world was created, there were names written in the book of life whom God chose. And there were names that not written in the book of life before the world began. God's is the One who did the choosing according to His Sovereign will. He's the One who has mercy upon whom He will have mercy and hardens whomever He wants to harden.

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"Yet before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad, in order that God’s plan of election might stand, not by works but by Him who calls, she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” So it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Certainly not! For He says to Moses:

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden.
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God's doing the saving and is saving those whom He chose before the world began.

 

[acts5_29]

Regarding predestination, scripture states that God foreknew us and predestined us, called us and justified us.

If you support preDESTINATION, I concede that your belief system can be consistent. But if we go with foreknowledge alone and salvation is a personal decision made as an individual, then having all these numbers all neatly fit into 12,000 for 12 tribes is a bit far-fetched. As an Arminian, I don't think I'm going to be able to get there.

Also, the 12 tribes of Revelation do not match the 12 tribes of Israel. There is a tribe of Joseph now. There was a falling away in the tribe of Dan, and he was cut off. Which matters, because you have the 144,000 as the UNBELIEVING Jews. Dan, who was unbelieving, was not sealed, but cut off.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I cannot buy both the idea that a literal 12,000 will be saved and that man has a free will. Either one has to give, or the other. I don't buy into partial predestination, either. [...]

As I see it, "the 144,000" will be "sealed" [for a certain type of protection] (at a certain point in/during the trib)... but I don't believe these are the sum total of all the Jews/Israel who will be "SAVED" in/during the trib years (besides "Gentiles" in the trib).

I do believe "the least of these My brethren" are also the believing remnant of Jews/Israel (having come to faith IN/DURING the trib yrs), and I'm not inclined to believe these are identical to "the 144,000" (and both of these being distinct from "the nations/Gentiles" in the trib [i.e. the Sheep and goats of the nations at the time of His Second Coming to the earth]); etc etc (like, the believing remnant of Israel/Jews, having come to faith IN/DURING the trib yrs FOLLOWING "our Rapture" will be the ones DOING the "INVITING" of the Gentiles TO "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER," aka "the earthly MK age")

Just my two cents... and a little leftover too... = )

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Also, the 12 tribes of Revelation do not match the 12 tribes of Israel. There is a tribe of Joseph now. There was a falling away in the tribe of Dan, and he was cut off. Which matters, because you have the 144,000 as the UNBELIEVING Jews.

If you were addressing Ahwatukee, here's what he had said:

"The 144,000 = The first fruits of those who come out of the unbelieving nation of Israel, recognizing Jesus as their Messiah"


... IOW, he is not saying they REMAIN "unbelieving"


Go back and read his post more carefully to ascertain what he actually said. = )