Catholicism vs Protestantism

[Benadam]

But none pray to Moses or death saint in the bible

Matt 27
afternoon darkness came over all the land. 46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli,[c] lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).[d]
G afternoon darkness came over all the land. 46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli,[c] lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).[d]

47 When some of those standing there heard this, they said, “He’s calling Elijah.”

 

[Gregoryp]

https://www.born-again-christian.info/roman-catholics.htm this is all that needs to be said on the topic. Having experienced many masses and Catholic Church events, I can tell you the Holy Spirit is nowhere to be seen. Its full of paganism, idolatry ,pomp and ceremony.

 

[Jackson123]

Matt 27
afternoon darkness came over all the land. 46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli,[c] lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).[d]
G afternoon darkness came over all the land. 46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli,[c] lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).[d]

47 When some of those standing there heard this, they said, “He’s calling Elijah.”

Some think Jesus pray to Elijah, but was not.

Jesus is God, why God pray to Elijah, his servant?

 

[Bede]

This statement contradict the statement I quote above.
If the church never grant indulgence involving money, why pope Prius 5 canceled?
I have to say sorry that it prove lie to me

"2These measures show plainly that the Church long before the Reformation, not only recognized the existence of abuses, but also used her authority to correct them. In spite of all this, disorders continued and furnished the pretext for attacks directed against the doctrine itself, no less than against the practice, of indulgences. Here, as in so many other matters, the love of money was the chief root of the evil; indulgences were employed by mercenary ecclesiastics as a means of pecuniary gain." (Catholic Encyclopedia)

Some clerics were, quite wrongly, taking a fee for an indulgence. This was an abuse. As I read it the Pope cancelled any indulgences granted in this way. I'm not denying that some indulgences were granted for a fee; not by the Church but by some people abusing the system. The Church tried to stop such abuses.

 

[Bede]

You believe Paul able to hear and talk back to us
You believe Paul still love us and bear fruit

Why don't you believe Paul willing to talk back to us

You love your children don't you? If they ask you a question, say

Dad, can I kill myself? Will you answer them or doesn't say anything like not heard their question?

Now you are just being silly!

 

[Dan_473]

But none pray to Moses or death saint in the bible

that's correct!

so, do you
(or the Christians you got there with for fellowship)
have any practices that are not found in the Bible?

like celebrating Christmas.
do you have a special service on Christmas?

 

[Dan_473]

https://www.born-again-christian.info/roman-catholics.htm this is all that needs to be said on the topic. Having experienced many masses and Catholic Church events, I can tell you the Holy Spirit is nowhere to be seen. Its full of paganism, idolatry ,pomp and ceremony.

sounds like we have had different experiences!

I'm not Catholic, but I too have experienced many Catholic masses.

my sense was that there was at least two or three Catholics there gathered in Jesus name.

sure you can say that many Catholics don't gather in Jesus name.
but it seems to me the same could be said about many Presbyterians or methodists as well.

 

[Benadam]

Some think Jesus pray to Elijah, but was not.

Jesus is God, why God pray to Elijah, his servant?

God isn't the subject, the conversation between the two Jewish leaders is.

We have two Jewish leaders explaining what they see within their own construct of reality. We can see from the content of their conversation that asking for the intercession of a Saint in heaven is consistent with the reality that the refined Jewish mind perceived.

 

[Jackson123]

"2These measures show plainly that the Church long before the Reformation, not only recognized the existence of abuses, but also used her authority to correct them. In spite of all this, disorders continued and furnished the pretext for attacks directed against the doctrine itself, no less than against the practice, of indulgences. Here, as in so many other matters, the love of money was the chief root of the evil; indulgences were employed by mercenary ecclesiastics as a means of pecuniary gain." (Catholic Encyclopedia)

Some clerics were, quite wrongly, taking a fee for an indulgence. This was an abuse. As I read it the Pope cancelled any indulgences granted in this way. I'm not denying that some indulgences were granted for a fee; not by the Church but by some people abusing the system. The Church tried to stop such abuses.

I read some article, st Peter basilica build on indulgence fee. So this abuse is not only in local church, but from majority church, seem to me correction happen after Martin Luther open it publicly. It may cover up purpose not real repentance.

Quote
Abstract
New St. Peter’s Basilica is the second largest church in the world and considered by many to be the most beautiful. Built mainly during the sixteenth century, it took over a century to complete, and withstood corruption, wars, the Reformation, the Counter-Reformation, good popes and evil ones, and inched its way toward completion in 1626. The main funding for the early stages of building New St. Peter’s came from the sale of indulgences. Indulgences did more than help pay for the basilica, however. The abusive means of selling indulgences, including lies from priests and the papacy about their efficacy, resulted in an uprising, led by Martin Luther of Germany, and the result was the Reformation and split in the Church. For those who were seduced away from the Church by the allure of the Renaissance and the secular aspects of humanism, Luther’s protestations offered an alternative ideology and the Protestant Church was born. Indulgences also paid for some of the most exquisite art in the world. The project brought together some of the world’s greatest minds and talent, including Michelangelo, Bramante, Bernini, and Raphael. They worked in concert, along with many others, toward a common goal: creating the most spectacular and inspiring religious site of all time. Its artwork is unsurpassed, making it a pilgrimage even for non-believers. This work focuses on the period from Nicholas V (r. 1447-1455) to the death of Michelangelo in 1564, chief architect of St. Peter’s at the time and argues that in spite of the avarice and corruption that surrounded indulgences, building the basilica was worth the cost. With the enormous help of indulgences, New St. Peter’s brought together the greatest visionaries, artists, and architects—possibly of all time—to build the greatest basilica to the glory of God. Indulgence sales, in spite of their abuses, left their mark on history in a positive way. To this day, the basilica inspires thousands of Christians who come to view its splendor and rejuvenate their faith.

 

[Jackson123]

that's correct!

so, do you
(or the Christians you got there with for fellowship)
have any practices that are not found in the Bible?

like celebrating Christmas.
do you have a special service on Christmas?

I was but now I think I will pray asking the Lord if it is danger.
Seem to me Celebrate Christmas in purpose to celebrate the born of Christ is not danger.
Pray to Mary is bit danger. My neighbor pray to Mary and fasting, want to talk to Mary, she told me mary come to her, she refused to eat to the point, her friend call ambulance on her, she almost die.

 

[Jackson123]

God isn't the subject, the conversation between the two Jewish leaders is.

We have two Jewish leaders explaining what they see within their own construct of reality. We can see from the content of their conversation that asking for the intercession of a Saint in heaven is consistent with the reality that the refined Jewish mind perceived.

Jesus not talk to Elijah, Jesus talk to His Father, ask why The Father forsaken Him.

46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

 

[Jackson123]

Now you are just being silly!

You not answer my question brother. you sure this respon is the will of Mary to say somthing not polite to other?

 

[Wansvic]

it seems to me that a strange situation arises if a person says that they are going to use only scripture and not tradition.

without tradition, how does a person decide what documents are scripture?

The bible has withstood the test of time. Why? Because without it, due to God's own mandate, judgment can not take place:

Jesus said that man will be judged by the word. (John 12:48) This statement establishes that all of mankind must have access to the word, either verbally or in written form, in order for judgment to take place. Otherwise, a defense could be made that a person was being unjustly condemned.

Throughout history the vital doctrines as expressed in the bible; ie, Jesus’ death, burial, resurrection, repentance, water baptism, receiving the Holy Ghost, etc. have been distorted. Unfortunately many are following traditions instituted by human beings who deemed themselves more knowledgeable then the God inspired apostles who walked and talked with Jesus on a daily basis.

The Protestant Reformation is an example of one person’s conviction that what had been corrupted had to be restored or “reformed.” The protest was against the leaders of the Catholic Church. They had corrupted the very word of God. Although Martin Luther’s action of protest was a start, it did not accomplish reforming the many aspects of truth that the Catholic Church had ripped apart.

Each individual will stand before God and be judged by the literal word of God. That is why it is crucial to study the word and be obedient to what it actually says, not what someone professes it means.

 

[jaybo]

Becuase you posing two options one of which is not true.
For example - Scripture or invented Christian "facts"?

Then you ask
There are those of us who believe God's Word is complete and sufficient and there are others who don't believe that. Which camp are you in? But youn assume that God's Word is synony,mous with the Bible.

The Bible and "God's Word" are usually synonymous. I strongly believe that God's Word, i.e., the Bible is complete and sufficient.

 

[Dan_473]

I was but now I think I will pray asking the Lord if it is danger.
Seem to me Celebrate Christmas in purpose to celebrate the born of Christ is not danger.

do you agree, then, that celebrating Christmas is something not talked about in the Bible, yet many people, both Protestants and Catholics, do it?

 

[jaybo]

From Cattholic Answers
Myth 7: A person used to be able to buy indulgences.
One never could "buy" indulgences. The financial scandal surrounding indulgences, the scandal that gave Martin Luther an excuse for his heterodoxy, involved alms—indulgences in which the giving of alms to some charitable fund or foundation was used as the occasion to grant the indulgence. There was no outright selling of indulgences. The Catholic Encyclopedia states: "t is easy to see how abuses crept in. Among the good works which might be encouraged by being made the condition of an indulgence, almsgiving would naturally hold a conspicuous place. . . . It is well to observe that in these purposes there is nothing essentially evil. To give money to God or to the poor is a praiseworthy act, and, when it is done from right motives, it will surely not go unrewarded."

Of course one naturally quotes from the Catholic Encyclopedia to justify a shameful practice of Catholics. Are you joking??

 

[Dan_473]

The bible has withstood the test of time.

what is the test of time?
is it something spoken of in the scriptures?

Jesus said that man will be judged by the word. (John 12:48)

48. He who rejects me, and doesn`t receive my sayings, has one who judges him. The word that I spoke, the same will judge him in the last day.
(John, 12)

is Jesus referring there to the entire Bible?
or to the words he spoke during his ministry here on Earth?

do you believe that Jesus is identical with the father, such that when Jesus says, "my words" it would refer to words that the father spoke as well?
(similar question below)

This statement establishes that all of mankind must have access to the word, either verbally or in written form, in order for judgment to take place.

hmmm...
how does that work regarding people living on the American continent prior to Europeans coming over around 1500 ad?

Throughout history the vital doctrines as expressed in the bible; ie, Jesus’ death, burial, resurrection, repentance, water baptism, receiving the Holy Ghost, etc. have been distorted.

I'm glad you're still interested in talking about water baptism.

thinking over past stuff on this thread, I believe you have talked about Jesus saying to baptize in a single name in Matthew 28.

matching that up with other things you've talked about regarding baptism,
do you believe Jesus is the name of the father, and of the son, and of the holy Spirit?

 

[jaybo]

Part of the Catholic Church (a tiny part) in not the Church.
There have always been abuses (of different sorts) among a few Catholics in the Church. It is inevitable -we are all sinfiul people.
But the Church steps in to correct those abuses. It has never endorsed them.

Moreover explicitly banning the sale -that should never have happened - is not abolishing. Abolishing implies it was an approved practice, which it wasn't

Can you spell "sophistry"? The dictionary definition of "abolish" is "formally put an end to (a system, practice, or institution)." It says nothing about "an approved practice."

The sale of indulgences was a practice instituted and practiced by members of the Catholic church. Period.

 

[jaybo]

Matt 27
afternoon darkness came over all the land. 46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli,[c] lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).[d]
G afternoon darkness came over all the land. 46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli,[c] lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).[d]

47 When some of those standing there heard this, they said, “He’s calling Elijah.”

And they were mistaken! Jesus was crying out to God only, as explained in the text quoted from Matthew's gospel.

 

[Wansvic]

God isn't the subject, the conversation between the two Jewish leaders is.

We have two Jewish leaders explaining what they see within their own construct of reality. We can see from the content of their conversation that asking for the intercession of a Saint in heaven is consistent with the reality that the refined Jewish mind perceived.

Just because a person believes something that "religious" leaders have presented does not make it God's truth. Jesus spoke of the lack of understanding of the religious leaders many times. Sadly, this has continued throughout history, and disrupted the purposes of God.

Matt 22:29
"Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God."

The following commentary mentions why people could have been led to believe something that the bible does not support. Notice "rabbis felt." Feeling something is true without concrete evidence, supported by 2-3 witnesses from the word causes one to err in their understanding and believe a lie. (Prov. 30:5-6)

Matthew 27:45
27:47. Because Elijah was thought never to have died, some *rabbis felt that he was sent on errands like the angels, often to deliver pious rabbis from trouble.
(from IVP Bible Background Commentary: New Testament by Craig S. Keener Copyright © 1993 by Craig S. Keener. Published by InterVarsity Press. All rights reserved.)


Matt 15:8-9
This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.