The absurdity and heresy of Preterism

[KJV1611]

You are Delusional!

I will give you the name of my office so you can come and be mentally evaluated. You need to refill your prescription!

I would agree. That kind of talk really hurts the preterist view.

 

[PlainWord]

Within the flow of Matthew 24, we come to where Christ claims there will be a Tribulation unlike the world has ever seen. He then claims the days will be shorter for the ELECT'S sake.

From this point, Christ then Commands that immediately following this Tribulation, people are to watch the skies. The moon would turn into BLOOD, and the stars will fall (We see a star burning up as it enters the atmosphere now and it sizzles like a firecracker before it finally burns itself up)(I believe what Christ is saying here, these stars are going to crash into the surface of Earth so this is why Him saying falling stars literally means falling stars).

Then Christ stresses that after these signs, Christ is Second Coming like lightning streaking across the sky from East to West and His Angels are going to gather the Elect.




Now, 70 AD happens, and a man named Josephus writes all about the events.

Nowhere can we find in his writings:
1) Tribulation Began
2) the days were shortened
3) Tribulation Ends
4) Moons turns to BLOOD
5) Stars fall to Earth or fall anywhere
6) Christ returns like lightning from East to West and His Angels gather the Elect

And if we add for those who believe John was put into Patmos by Nero and wrote Revelations in 67 AD:

Nowhere in Josephus writings can we find:
1) the Beast
2) the False Prophet
3) the Mark of the Beast
4) Satan as a DRAGON
5) People being BEHEADED for refusing the Mark of the Beast
6) DEMONS that looked like =
7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.

8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.

9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.

10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.



What I am pointing out here are TWELVE specific things going to happen from what Christ and John have explained.
And according to Josephus, none of those 12 things happened.

Therefore, Christ is speaking about another event and John is not writing about 70 AD (which we know he wrote it in 95 AD about a future event).

Which in my opinion, puts Polycarp's, Iggy's, and Irenaeus' views as being correct!

They all happened. Josephus doesn't need to record them all for them to happen, but he does record quiet a few. The problem you are having is you are literalizing all these events when figurative, apocalyptic literary style is in use. John used a lot of OT symbolism that his readers would understand but the Romans would not. John wrote Revelation this way as to protect himself and his readers should a copy of Revelation got into the wrong hands. There would have been many copies made, at least 7 that we know of going to the seven churches.

Here are the fulfillments of your items in blue:

1) Tribulation Began Eusebius records it as starting when James the Just is killed and Vespasian immediately surrounded the city.
2) the days were shortened Not the length of days but the number of days
3) Tribulation Ends It ended when the siege ended
4) Moons turns to BLOOD We have blood moons all the time.
5) Stars fall to Earth or fall anywhere This is common OT prophetic language representing great turmoil and unrest associated with judgment of a city or country. You see the same language used to describe the fall of Edom, Egypt, Babylon and Israel in 6th century BC.
6) Christ returns like lightning from East to West and His Angels gather the Elect Tacitus states, "lightening from the clouds lit up the temple." (Hist 5.3)

Got to run, will do the second half later.

 

[KJV1611]

They all happened. Josephus doesn't need to record them all for them to happen, but he does record quiet a few. The problem you are having is you are literalizing all these events when figurative, apocalyptic literary style is in use. John used a lot of OT symbolism that his readers would understand but the Romans would not. John wrote Revelation this way as to protect himself and his readers should a copy of Revelation got into the wrong hands. There would have been many copies made, at least 7 that we know of going to the seven churches.

Here are the fulfillments of your items in blue:

1) Tribulation Began Eusebius records it as starting when James the Just is killed and Vespasian immediately surrounded the city.
2) the days were shortened Not the length of days but the number of days
3) Tribulation Ends It ended when the siege ended
4) Moons turns to BLOOD We have blood moons all the time.
5) Stars fall to Earth or fall anywhere This is common OT prophetic language representing great turmoil and unrest associated with judgment of a city or country. You see the same language used to describe the fall of Edom, Egypt, Babylon and Israel in 6th century BC.
6) Christ returns like lightning from East to West and His Angels gather the Elect Tacitus states, "lightening from the clouds lit up the temple." (Hist 5.3)

Got to run, will do the second half later.

The dead in Christ were raised with Christ at his resurrection, not in 70 ad.

 

[PlainWord]

You are Delusional!

I will give you the name of my office so you can come and be mentally evaluated. You need to refill your prescription!

It has been my experience in life, and especially on here, that when debating if someone cannot defend their case on the merits, or cannot refute the other side, on the merits, they resort to name calling.

 

[biker]

It has been my experience in life, and especially on here, that when debating if someone cannot defend their case on the merits, or cannot refute the other side, on the merits, they resort to name calling.

I have defended my case.
You on the other hand, are the proof that even when incorrect, you can find enough wrongs to back your claim because this is how you personally view them.

 

[biker]

Plainword,

The one thing you cannot deny is the dating of the papyrus. Whether you like it or not, Papyrus dating is 100% accurate because they go off how the papyrus river plant was processed into writing paper. And we have been able to properly define and correctly date the methods since the first time done in Egypt. And from the turn of the Century BC to AD to mid 80's AD, the Papyrus Method changed. And Revelations was factually discovered on this Method that stemmed from mid 80's AD til 250's AD.

 

[PlainWord]

The dead in Christ were raised with Christ at his resurrection, not in 70 ad.

I believe those who came back to life with Christ were those who died recently and that the power of Christ's resurrection was such that anyone who had died within 4 days were resuscitated. The passage is so isolated and unsupported that it makes it hard to know what was going on. However, if you look at this passage, it is clear that the resurrection had not yet happened at the time of Christ.

2 Timothy 2:18
who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.

I believe the resurrection of the just occurred on the last day of the age, the Jewish dispensation. This would have been around 66-67 AD before Nero died and that he witnessed the event.

 

[PlainWord]

I have defended my case.
You on the other hand, are the proof that even when incorrect, you can find enough wrongs to back your claim because this is how you personally view them.

But you've said absolutely nothing to refute my position as to the identity of the 2 witnesses. Rather than enter into an intelligent debate, you merely hurtle insults. Anybody can call another names. You acted like you were personally offended that I hold a different view.

 

[biker]

But you've said absolutely nothing to refute my position as to the identity of the 2 witnesses. Rather than enter into an intelligent debate, you merely hurtle insults. Anybody can call another names. You acted like you were personally offended that I hold a different view.

My position is based upon Matthew 24 being about 2 events and John was put into Patmos under Domitian where he then was given the vision we read in Revelation. I trust the Church Fathers view on this. Because, Irenaeus, was literally born 20 years after the Patmos event. He was the Disciple of IGGY who was the Disciple of Polycarp, who was the Disciple of Apostle John. I don't believe from John to Polycarp to Iggy to Irenaeus the message was not accurate when we're literally speaking a 40 year span.

 

[Truth7t7]

You keep making the same false arguments. Only Irenaeus provides a Domitianic timeframe. All the others who claim the same are quoting Irenaeus as their source. Eusebius, who also cites Irenaeus, expresses indecision and doubt as to not only the timing of Revelation but also its authorship. He says, "The opinions respecting the Revelation are still greatly divided." (Eccles Hist iii.24)

To my other friend, Truth7t7, there is ZERO internal evidence for a massive multi-thousand year gap. The writings to the 7 churches were period specific, example - there are no Nicolaitans today." Instead the internal evidence suggests a very near return. "Behold, I come quickly," etc. Every event listed in Revelation happened in the first century. We can take them one-by-one, if you like.

1.) Do you believe In a literal "Future" second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens?

2.) Do you believe in a "Future" Resurrection of the believer, receiving a glorified immortal body?

3.) Do you believe in a "Future" New Heaven and Earth?

 

[Truth7t7]

If you don't understand that the great tribulation happened to Judea and Jerusalem in 67-70 AD, then I can't help you. Read Josephus as he goes into great detail over the miseries they endured before their destruction. One cannot escape a world-wide tribulation by fleeing to the mountains of Judea. The fact that the Church of Jerusalem fled over the mountains to Pella and not one was lost before Titus laid siege proves the point.

Your claim is 100% false

The scripture clearly states

"Immediately After The Tribulation Of Those Days"

"They Shall See The Son Of Man Coming"

The second coming of Jesus Christ in the clouds of heaven is a "Future" event unfulfilled as clearly seen in Matthew 24:29-30KJV

Will you disregard the truth of scripture, trying desperately to keep your preterist fairy tales alive?

1.) Immediately after the tribulation?

2.) They Shall see the Son of Man coming?

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

[Truth7t7]

They all happened. Josephus doesn't need to record them all for them to happen, but he does record quiet a few. The problem you are having is you are literalizing all these events when figurative, apocalyptic literary style is in use. John used a lot of OT symbolism that his readers would understand but the Romans would not. John wrote Revelation this way as to protect himself and his readers should a copy of Revelation got into the wrong hands. There would have been many copies made, at least 7 that we know of going to the seven churches.

Here are the fulfillments of your items in blue:

1) Tribulation Began Eusebius records it as starting when James the Just is killed and Vespasian immediately surrounded the city.
2) the days were shortened Not the length of days but the number of days
3) Tribulation Ends It ended when the siege ended
4) Moons turns to BLOOD We have blood moons all the time.
5) Stars fall to Earth or fall anywhere This is common OT prophetic language representing great turmoil and unrest associated with judgment of a city or country. You see the same language used to describe the fall of Edom, Egypt, Babylon and Israel in 6th century BC.
6) Christ returns like lightning from East to West and His Angels gather the Elect Tacitus states, "lightening from the clouds lit up the temple." (Hist 5.3)

Got to run, will do the second half later.

Jesus Christ returned in 67-70AD according to (Tacitus)

Your claims are not found within orthodox christianity, false claims that would make the most ardent cultist blush.

 

[PlainWord]

Plainword,

The one thing you cannot deny is the dating of the papyrus. Whether you like it or not, Papyrus dating is 100% accurate because they go off how the papyrus river plant was processed into writing paper. And we have been able to properly define and correctly date the methods since the first time done in Egypt. And from the turn of the Century BC to AD to mid 80's AD, the Papyrus Method changed. And Revelations was factually discovered on this Method that stemmed from mid 80's AD til 250's AD.

How do you know it wasn't a copy of the original? You even said it, scribes copied things all the time.

 

[PlainWord]

1.) Do you believe In a literal "Future" second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens?

2.) Do you believe in a "Future" Resurrection of the believer, receiving a glorified immortal body?

3.) Do you believe in a "Future" New Heaven and Earth?

Do you believe In a literal "Future" second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens?

There is no scripture support for this view. He said He would come back during His generation to destroy Jerusalem and its temple, which is historical fact. For those who pierced Him to have seen Him and bowed, His return must have been circa 70 AD. For those standing there to still be alive, He must have returned. One major problem you futurists have is you don't look at the literal translation of Mat 24:3. Here it is:

3 And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what [is] the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?'

Josephus in fact records the full end of their age.

But as for that house, God had, for certain, long ago doomed it to the fire; and now that fatal day was come, according to the revolution of ages..." WAR 6-4-5

The disciples associated the destruction of the temple with the end of their age and SO DOES JOSEPHUS!!!

They wanted to know the SIGN OF HIS PRESENCE and it wasn't the world coming to an end, it was THEIR AGE, THE MOSAIC OR JEWISH AGE which was to end, not the planet. If His return was to be a visible, bodily return, they wouldn't need a sign of it as it would be obvious. As long as you futurists continue to hold these two incorrect views, you'll never get out of the quagmire you are in.

It's funny, all the disciples could talk about was the return of Christ, their redeemer and friend. And they spoke of it as imminent. Yet, none of the post 70 AD early church writers spoke of it, except for St. Ignatius who claimed Christ had returned which I will quote next.

2.) Do you believe in a "Future" Resurrection of the believer, receiving a glorified immortal body?

We are each immediately resurrected upon our deaths, if we are believers. Both Peter and Paul taught our earthly body is merely a tent covering our immortal body. St. Ignatius in his letter to the Magnesians in Chapter 9 makes this explosive statement:

CHAPTER 9
9:1 If then those who had walked in ancient
practices attained unto newness of hope, no longer
observing sabbaths but fashioning their lives after
the Lord's day, on which our life also arose through
Him and through His death which some men deny -- a
mystery whereby we attained unto belief, and for this
cause we endure patiently, that we may be found
disciples of Jesus Christ our only teacher --
9:2 if this be so, how shall we be able to live
apart from Him? seeing that even the prophets, being
His disciples, were expecting Him as their teacher
through the Spirit. And for this cause He whom they
rightly awaited, when He came, raised them from the
dead.

3.) Do you believe in a "Future" New Heaven and Earth?

Nope. They exist now. Keep in mind, we have two realms, physical and spiritual. There are far more people who have died and moved on into the spiritual realm than who are alive in our physical realm. If you think they are all soul-less beings floating around in heaven you are sadly mistaken. They are fully recognizable bodily spiritual flawless beings right now as many near death experiences have testified. When we die, we will join them.

 

[PlainWord]

Jesus Christ returned in 67-70AD according to (Tacitus)

Your claims are not found within orthodox christianity, false claims that would make the most ardent cultist blush.

Not just Tacitus, Josephus records the presence of Christ twice during this time frame too.

on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus, [Nisan,] and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour. This light seemed to be a good sign to the unskillful, but was so interpreted by the sacred scribes, as to portend those events that followed immediately upon it. At the same festival also, a heifer, as she was led by the high priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple. (Josphus War 6-5-3)

Since when do baby virgin cows give birth to lambs? A Lamb born of a virgin in the temple???? Christ doesn't even mention this as a sign of His presence but you would have to be blind not to recognize it.

When Christ died, day became night. When He returned, night became day. Christ is seen as a extremely bright light when His presence is here. The fully glorified Son of God blinded Saul (Paul) on the road to Damascus. Rev 18:1 states that "another messenger having GREAT AUTHORITY and the earth was LIGHTENED BY HIS GLORY!!" emphasis mine. It is also worthy to note that this lasted half an hour, exactly the amount of time heaven was silent before bad things started to happen on earth.

Orthodox Christianity needs to drop Darby, Moody, Chuck Smith and the others and get back to the Bible. But in their defense, they didn't have digital bibles to do fast key word searches. Well Smith did.

 

[PlainWord]

Your claim is 100% false

The scripture clearly states

"Immediately After The Tribulation Of Those Days"

"They Shall See The Son Of Man Coming"

The second coming of Jesus Christ in the clouds of heaven is a "Future" event unfulfilled as clearly seen in Matthew 24:29-30KJV

Will you disregard the truth of scripture, trying desperately to keep your preterist fairy tales alive?

1.) Immediately after the tribulation?

2.) They Shall see the Son of Man coming?

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

AND THEY DID. "Tribes of the Earth" equals "Tribes of Israel."

Rev 1:7 Lo, he doth come with the clouds, and see him shall every eye, even those who did pierce him, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land. Yes! Amen! YLT The great tribulation ended when Titus broke through the walls and ended the siege. At this time, just over 100,000 Jews were left alive out of 1.2 million to witness the advent.

 

[PlainWord]

My position is based upon Matthew 24 being about 2 events and John was put into Patmos under Domitian where he then was given the vision we read in Revelation. I trust the Church Fathers view on this. Because, Irenaeus, was literally born 20 years after the Patmos event. He was the Disciple of IGGY who was the Disciple of Polycarp, who was the Disciple of Apostle John. I don't believe from John to Polycarp to Iggy to Irenaeus the message was not accurate when we're literally speaking a 40 year span.

My good fellow, Irenaeus, was born in 130 AD in Smyrna a full 60 years after the fall of Jerusalem. He was from Lyon which is located in modern day France. He recalled his discussion on this subject with Polycarp, whom he once met, 35 years earlier. You ever have a hard time recalling perfectly a discussion with someone from 35 years ago? I can't remember what I had for breakfast most days. Either he heard wrong or didn't remember accurately. You are believing triple hearsay from someone who wasn't even there as if it were rock solid evidence. The Bible teaches on the account of 2 or 3 eyewitnesses, you don't have any. Such evidence would be inadmissible in any courtroom in America. I'm glad you aren't a judge. But here you go, blindly following traditions of men because it fits your eschatological view. You have to believe this or your whole belief system is shattered.

The Syrian version of the Apocalypse clearly states that John was banished by Nero. Syria is much closer to the events than France. All I am saying is the date of Revelation is unsettled and unproven whether it be Domitianic or Neroic. Eusebius even claimed that it was unsettled in his day.

I used to believe exactly as you do but was bothered by so many inconsistencies inherent in the futurist view. I took the matter to the Lord in earnest prayer and asked to be shown the truth. I then re-read the NT with an open mind, actually with an eye towards the preterist viewpoint. It was like someone turned a switch on and I started to see clearly. I used to be on here arguing with preterists too before I had my awakening. My whole life I was a futurists until about 5 years ago and I'm much older than you.

 

[PlainWord]

I would agree. That kind of talk really hurts the preterist view.

There is a lot of support for the two witnesses to have been Paul and Peter. I have to admit, I wasn't the first to come up with it. My buddy, Pastor Mike Rogers proposed it and has a book coming out soon. If the two witnesses were killed in Rome (as so many Christians were under Nero) instead of Jerusalem, then everything else about them fits. The wording John used makes it seem like it was Jerusalem but he clearly was disguising the real place otherwise why not just say "Jerusalem?" Peter and Paul were witnesses, they were the most prominent of the disciples. They did miracles and signs and they could not be killed. How long were they in Rome? About 3.5 years?

Compare Rev 11 to Acts 4:

3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”

4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner. 6 These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.

Look at Acts 4:

12 And through the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were done among the people. And they were all with one accord in Solomon’s Porch. 13 Yet none of the rest dared join them, but the people esteemed them highly.

And the high priest asked them, 28 saying, “Did we not strictly command you not to teach in this name? And look, you have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this Man’s blood on us!”

32 And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.”

42 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they did not cease teaching and preaching Jesus as the Christ.

Granted, Acts 4 talks about what Peter and Paul were doing in Jerusalem but later when they were in Rome, is it a stretch to imagine they kept it up? It can be argued that Nero was the beast in Rev 11 and 13. They even identify themselves as God's witnesses. If you read Roman historians about the days of Nero, Rome was in as much chaos as Jerusalem. All kinds of miracles were taking place in Rome. The head of the statue to Zeus flew off, they had violent storms and earthquakes. I know there is more but have to re-read.

 

[Truth7t7]

There is no scripture support for this view. He said He would come back during His generation to destroy Jerusalem and its temple, which is historical fact. For those who pierced Him to have seen Him and bowed, His return must have been circa 70 AD. For those standing there to still be alive, He must have returned. One major problem you futurists have is you don't look at the literal translation of Mat 24:3. Here it is:

3 And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what [is] the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?'

Josephus in fact records the full end of their age.

But as for that house, God had, for certain, long ago doomed it to the fire; and now that fatal day was come, according to the revolution of ages..." WAR 6-4-5

The disciples associated the destruction of the temple with the end of their age and SO DOES JOSEPHUS!!!

They wanted to know the SIGN OF HIS PRESENCE and it wasn't the world coming to an end, it was THEIR AGE, THE MOSAIC OR JEWISH AGE which was to end, not the planet. If His return was to be a visible, bodily return, they wouldn't need a sign of it as it would be obvious. As long as you futurists continue to hold these two incorrect views, you'll never get out of the quagmire you are in.

It's funny, all the disciples could talk about was the return of Christ, their redeemer and friend. And they spoke of it as imminent. Yet, none of the post 70 AD early church writers spoke of it, except for St. Ignatius who claimed Christ had returned which I will quote next.

We are each immediately resurrected upon our deaths, if we are believers. Both Peter and Paul taught our earthly body is merely a tent covering our immortal body. St. Ignatius in his letter to the Magnesians in Chapter 9 makes this explosive statement:

CHAPTER 9
9:1 If then those who had walked in ancient
practices attained unto newness of hope, no longer
observing sabbaths but fashioning their lives after
the Lord's day, on which our life also arose through
Him and through His death which some men deny -- a
mystery whereby we attained unto belief, and for this
cause we endure patiently, that we may be found
disciples of Jesus Christ our only teacher --
9:2 if this be so, how shall we be able to live
apart from Him? seeing that even the prophets, being
His disciples, were expecting Him as their teacher
through the Spirit. And for this cause He whom they
rightly awaited, when He came, raised them from the
dead.

Nope. They exist now. Keep in mind, we have two realms, physical and spiritual. There are far more people who have died and moved on into the spiritual realm than who are alive in our physical realm. If you think they are all soul-less beings floating around in heaven you are sadly mistaken. They are fully recognizable bodily spiritual flawless beings right now as many near death experiences have testified. When we die, we will join them.

You deny a future coming of Jesus Christ

You deny a future resurrection of the believer while receiving a glorified body.

You deny a future New Heaven and Earth.

Your views are (Full Preterist), this is considered (Heretical) within the orthodox Christian church, and I agree 100%

 

[Truth7t7]

Not just Tacitus, Josephus records the presence of Christ twice during this time frame too.

on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus, [Nisan,] and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour. This light seemed to be a good sign to the unskillful, but was so interpreted by the sacred scribes, as to portend those events that followed immediately upon it. At the same festival also, a heifer, as she was led by the high priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple. (Josphus War 6-5-3)

Since when do baby virgin cows give birth to lambs? A Lamb born of a virgin in the temple???? Christ doesn't even mention this as a sign of His presence but you would have to be blind not to recognize it.

When Christ died, day became night. When He returned, night became day. Christ is seen as a extremely bright light when His presence is here. The fully glorified Son of God blinded Saul (Paul) on the road to Damascus. Rev 18:1 states that "another messenger having GREAT AUTHORITY and the earth was LIGHTENED BY HIS GLORY!!" emphasis mine. It is also worthy to note that this lasted half an hour, exactly the amount of time heaven was silent before bad things started to happen on earth.

Orthodox Christianity needs to drop Darby, Moody, Chuck Smith and the others and get back to the Bible. But in their defense, they didn't have digital bibles to do fast key word searches. Well Smith did.

Your a (Full Preterist) as You deny a future coming if Jesus Christ, bodily resurrection of the believer, and a future New Heaven and Earth.

(Full Preterism) is considered heresy and I agree 100%