The truth about tongues: a DIVISIVE force in Christianity today

[garee]

Read almost any of garee's posts. They are all that way.

I have no doubt of his faith in God, but his posts are for the most part incomprehensible.

Incomprehensible? Sorry. My English writing ability does suffer.

Did you try to search the unseen understanding hid in his parables.? Some literalize them looking to the historical only and do not mix faith .We are given the prescription as to how to rightly divide so that we van understand walk by faith (Christ's in us not of our own) .We have none.

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

 

[KJV1611]

"Stairway to Heaven" was written in English. The Bible was primarily written in Hebrew and Greek.


People with the gift of the Holy Spirit can manifest that spirit. One of the manifestations is speaking in tongues.

I don’t deny that one of the manifestations of the Holy Spirit is speaking in tongues, I do it on this forum ALL THE TIME and people think I’m a lunatic.

You even think I’m a lunatic lol. An unknown tongue means just that, UNKOWN... nobody knows that tongue because it IS NOT a spoken language.

 

[Washed]

Well that's one possible answer but it does not really fit the expectation created in the verse.

It fits it exactly.

For the perfect to be Christ it would say comes again not comes.

"The perfect" is not Christ, but the return of Christ. The end. The completeness.

Scripture is what best fits the expectation of what was written in 1 Cor 13. Complete scripture so man is fully equipped to serve the Lord.

"The perfect" is not talking about the completed Bible.

Is it a known human language or something else?

It may be a known human language or an unknown human language, or a language of angels.

Is it then incumbent on the hearer to know the language?

No. This is why Paul said that if someone speaks in tongues out loud, it must be interpreted.

That is self serving and of no merit in a real discussion of Gods word

Wrong but positive. How do you grow in the admonition and nurture of the Lord?

By reading God's word and being obedient, loving God and people, and trying to do what God says to do.

 

[garee]

No, they are not. They are designed to hide the truth from those without faith. The plain text of Scripture teaches us how to walk by faith.

The plain parables without the hidden understanding?

There is a whole series of parables in Luke and Mark 9 (two witnesses). used to teach us how to walk by faith and not after what the eyes see the temporal .

Once Jesus hid the gospel understanding from the apostles and they thought he was incomprehensible . He was standing within 18 inches of the apostles. The election for the new top dog began as to who is the greatest'. At the end of the matter verse 55. He simply declared they knew not what manner of spirit they were of, referring to those who walk after what the eyes see, the temporal . I m sure you have a verse that will show parables as prophecy are irrelevant .

If they do not teach us how to walk by faith .Then what do they teach ? Jesus needed to take a class in English grammar ?

Goes right back to amazement wondering rather than believing the parables as prophecy.

Luke9:43-46 And they were all amazed at the mighty power of God. But while they wondered every one at all things which Jesus did, he said unto his disciples, Let these sayings sink down into your ears: for the Son of man shall be delivered into the hands of men. But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not: and they feared to ask him of that saying. Then there arose a reasoning among them, which of them should be greatest

Luke9: 55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

 

[Washed]

I don’t deny that one of the manifestations of the Holy Spirit is speaking in tongues, I do it on this forum ALL THE TIME and people think I’m a lunatic.

You even think I’m a lunatic lol. An unknown tongue means just that, UNKOWN... nobody knows that tongue because it IS NOT a spoken language.

You have not spoken in tongues on this forum. When a person speaks in tongues, the language he is speaking is unknown to HIM.

 

[garee]

It fits it exactly.


"The perfect" is not Christ, but the return of Christ. The end. The completeness.


"The perfect" is not talking about the completed Bible.


It may be a known human language or an unknown human language, or a language of angels.


No. This is why Paul said that if someone speaks in tongues out loud, it must be interpreted.

By reading God's word and being obedient, loving God and people, and trying to do what God says to do.

Interpreted by who ? We are warned of the spirit of the antichrists' who usurps the authority of God, that abides in us.

How do you know you found the right private interpretation? What does he look like?

These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 1 John2:26-27


The perfect has come. The revelation of God the book of the law, prophecy ended in Revelation 22. It is still the last chapter. Did you have something you needed to add to it? Is there a law missing by which we could know him more adequately?.

What's missing?

 

[KJV1611]

You have not spoken in tongues on this forum. When a person speaks in tongues, the language he is speaking is unknown to HIM.

That’s not true. When One interprets what the speaker says, it is known to the speaker what was said.

In other words when the Holy Spirit interprets what the flesh and blood of Jesus are, the tongues passage below is understood by the speaker.

Joh 6:56 (KJV) He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

 

[garee]

You have not spoken in tongues on this forum. When a person speaks in tongues, the language he is speaking is unknown to HIM.

Prophesying is speaking in tongues. Spread the new tongue the gospel. He sends us out two by two . Many prophets on this message sharing forum . Some offer unknown false. . prophecy, to anybody .

 

[lenna]

No offense taken.

If stairway to heaven is written in a known tongue. What is a spring clean for the may queen?

Do you see my point? There is an occult message HIDDEN in those words. When you hear those words, it sounds like the speech of a bumbling idiot, but to those “in the know”, it is crystal clear what message is being delivered.

What tongue is the HIDDEN MESSAGE written in? It’s not English because most people have no idea what a spring clean for the may queen is... it’s as if the writer of the song is a barbarian, a fool, a lunatic.

First of all, this song is by a British group and they are using idoms Americans are not familiar with. For example I know what a hedgerow is, but I am sure some Americans will not. 'West' is a metaphor for death. Sun rises in the east and sets in the west.
And so on.

Thing is, it is actually VERY English LOL!

No comparison whatsoever to tongues in the Bible.

As for spring clean for the may queen, looked it up and I bet most English people (English from England) know what that refers to. The May Queen is an English tradition, not American, so again, might sound like babble to you but it isn't.

 

[lenna]

It’s not English because most people have no idea what a spring clean for the may queen is... it’s as if the writer of the song is a barbarian, a fool, a lunatic.

Again, and for emphasis, what you are saying above there, is not true for most English people and frankly, since I am not American, I have nor problem with the meaning either. So. Whatever

 

[lenna]

Read almost any of garee's posts. They are all that way.

I have no doubt of his faith in God, but his posts are for the most part incomprehensible.

Seems to be the case.

 

[lenna]

Sorry without parables Christ spoke not. Not without wonderments he spoke not.

You are not Christ and He explained the parables to His disciples. There is no need for parables when speaking truth to those who belong to Him.

As it is, your post is not a parable so much as just plain incomprehensible. If you speak like that to everyone, no one is going to know what the hoo ha you are even on about. In fact they might wonder if you are feeling ok.

But whatever

 

[lenna]

What's missing?

My head is spinning with rhetorical responses here.

Here is a parable instead though

There was a fox who saw a grape tree hanging over a ledge and it was filled with ripe and beautiful grapes. She trotted over to it and tried to reach some but she could not because they were out of her reach. She tried and tried and tried but no matter how much she tried, she could not reach them.

She sat down and thought about it and decided she did not actually want them after all. So, with a toss of her head and a snort, she continued past them while saying out loud 'Who cares about those grapes. I don't even want them.'

There is a common message in that little story that illustrates something about human character. Jesus did not invent parables and the word 'parable' is from a Greek word meaning 'comparison'.

I find nothing in your personal parables to compare to any teaching that benefits the reader. Just thought you should know.

 

[KJV1611]

First of all, this song is by a British group and they are using idoms Americans are not familiar with. For example I know what a hedgerow is, but I am sure some Americans will not. 'West' is a metaphor for death. Sun rises in the east and sets in the west.
And so on.

Thing is, it is actually VERY English LOL!

No comparison whatsoever to tongues in the Bible.

As for spring clean for the may queen, looked it up and I bet most English people (English from England) know what that refers to. The May Queen is an English tradition, not American, so again, might sound like babble to you but it isn't.

You are looking at the terms from the exoteric perspective. That whole song is about pagan god worship.

In ancient Rome the first day of May fell during the festival of Floralia, named in honor of Flora, the goddess of springtime and flowers. It was a time of singing, dancing, and flower-decked parades, and also to hang flowers on a loved one's door. Roman prostitutes especially enjoyed the festival, for they considered Flora their patron goddess.

The New Funk & Wagnalls Encyclopedia says on page 8294:

“May Day festivals probably stem from the rites practiced in honor of a Roman goddess, Maia, who was worshiped as the source of human and natural fertility.” A conspicuous feature of this celebration has been (and still is, especially among school children) the dancing around the Maypole.

The same encyclopedia states: “This Maypole is believed by most scholars to be a survival of a phallic symbol formerly used in the spring rites for the goddess Maia.”

According to the polemic anti-Catholic pamphlet, The Two Babylons, the origin of the maypole dance began in ancient Babylon during sex worship and fertility rites. The church of St. Andrew Undershaft in the City of London is named after the maypole that was kept under its eaves and set up each spring until 1517 when student riots put an end to the custom. The maypole itself survived until 1547 when a Puritan mob seized and destroyed it as a "pagan idol".

 

[notuptome]

It fits it exactly.

Not really. Nothing in the following text supports the contention the the return of Christ is the perfect.

"The perfect" is not Christ, but the return of Christ. The end. The completeness.

There is no scriptural; support for you contention. The thing that was in part was the revealed word of God.

"The perfect" is not talking about the completed Bible.

That is exactly what scripture is teaching. The OT was not complete and the Jews had only a primary knowledge of Gods plan. They lacked a mature understanding of their Messiah and how He would provide forgiveness of sin and inheritance of eternal life.

It may be a known human language or an unknown human language, or a language of angels.

Still you skirt the matter. There is no such thing as a language of angels. Paul is using hyperbole in that verse. Take 1 Cor 13:1-3 in context. Are you going to have faith to move mountains? Bestow all your goods to feed the poor? Give your body to be burned? If not you become as a sounding brass.

No. This is why Paul said that if someone speaks in tongues out loud, it must be interpreted.

Only if it is a known language? So silent tongues do not need interpretation? How are they to be understood if they are silent and not interpreted?

By reading God's word and being obedient, loving God and people, and trying to do what God says to do.

Great when do you plan to start? Show me where God says to speak in tongues? Many in apostolic times spoke in tongues but none were commanded to do so. The apostles at Pentecost were not commanded to speak in tongues and it does not appear from the text they had any idea they were speaking in tongues. They certainly did not pray for this gift through the Holy Spirit

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Washed]

Not really. Nothing in the following text supports the contention the the return of Christ is the perfect.

There is no scriptural; support for you contention. The thing that was in part was the revealed word of God.

That is exactly what scripture is teaching. The OT was not complete and the Jews had only a primary knowledge of Gods plan. They lacked a mature understanding of their Messiah and how He would provide forgiveness of sin and inheritance of eternal life.

Still you skirt the matter. There is no such thing as a language of angels. Paul is using hyperbole in that verse. Take 1 Cor 13:1-3 in context. Are you going to have faith to move mountains? Bestow all your goods to feed the poor? Give your body to be burned? If not you become as a sounding brass.

Only if it is a known language? So silent tongues do not need interpretation? How are they to be understood if they are silent and not interpreted?

Great when do you plan to start? Show me where God says to speak in tongues? Many in apostolic times spoke in tongues but none were commanded to do so. The apostles at Pentecost were not commanded to speak in tongues and it does not appear from the text they had any idea they were speaking in tongues. They certainly did not pray for this gift through the Holy Spirit

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Trying to explain things to you, garee, Nehemiah, and a few others is an exercise in futility.

I give up, for now. But I'll leave with this:

Show me where God says to speak in tongues?

1 Cor 14:5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

You're as blind as a bat.

 

[KJV1611]

Trying to explain things to you, garee, Nehemiah, and a few others is an exercise in futility.

I completely agree with that.

I give up, for now. But I'll leave with this:
1 Cor 14:5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

You're as blind as a bat.

The greater person is the one that speaks in tongues where the tongue is interpreted. This is greater than prophesying.

 

[Nehemiah6]

The greater person is the one that speaks in tongues where the tongue is interpreted. This is greater than prophesying.

The Bible says the exact opposite.

But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort... Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

 

[Angela53510]

I think these were good references to what some of the early writers understood about the nature of tongues not that they spoke in tongues themselves. We all know that early writers reveal how quickly people began to fall away from their fervency of spirit and develop a lukewarm religious hierarchical ecclesiastical system that ultimately resulted in the dark ages. However they reveal that these tongues never were used to evangelize the world as some have erroneously stated. They reference what they understood them to be and whether they were right or wrong (the early church writers were often wrong about a great many things) they reveal to us their individual perspectives. And that is ALL that they provide for us. They are not authoritative they just give us a glimpse of their individual mindset at that time which is often quite depressing to realize how quickly they depart from the book of Acts. It is our job to rediscover and walk in the light of scripture whether Irenaeus or anyone else did or not. Also there are probably thousands of pentecostal theologians graduating from seminary every year world wide with at least 3 years of Greek and can read their New Testaments straight from the Greek for daily devotions. It is true that most pentecostals do not read Greek, but neither do MOST in any other denomination or church group.

I don't know about the US, but in Canada, Pentecostals attend "Bible Schools" not seminaries. I did a certificate in Pentecostal theology when I was a young Christian, and it was the equivalent of a Bible School certificate. Of course, someone attending a seminary and getting their MDIv is a different story. We had some of those people in my Baptist seminary. They realized they were not getting essentials in Bible school, and came and did the work, learned Greek and Hebrew and Hermeneutics. But sadly, those are the exception. Like I said, Gordon Fee is an outstanding Pentecostal Greek scholar. I disagree with him on some issues, but his exegesis is excellent. (I also disagreed on occasion with my Greek professor, another of the top scholar/translators in the world - Bill Mounce. And he was ok with me disagreeing, as long as I had my facts straight about the Greek!) No brainwashing to a certain viewpoint in higher academics.

But NOT three years of Greek, in most schools, except the bigger ones, where you are specializing in Greek or Hebrew. And unfortunately, many MDiv programs have been knocked down from 91 hours to 72 hours, with only one or no language credits. The theory is that a normal pastor doesn't need all that language or theory. I find it dreadful that the traditions of actually reading the Bible are being dummied down in the only institutions set up to rigorously teach these important things about how to correctly interpret the Bible, which does require a solid knowledge of the original languages, even for a pastor in a small town somewhere.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Trying to explain things to you, garee, Nehemiah, and a few others is an exercise in futility.

That's only because you choose to MISINTERPRET what Paul actually taught about tongues. And then he also said that tongues would cease, AND CEASE THEY DID. The historical evidence is there. But no. Neither the Bible nor the historical evidence is sufficient to disprove modern tongues. That is called "flying in the face of facts".