The truth about tongues: a DIVISIVE force in Christianity today

[garee]

Sorry man, not with you on this one.
People starting threads like these, arguing against spiritual gifts, are the real divisive force in church. The Gospel is not a new "tongue" and there is no solid basis in Scripture to support this interpretation, it is conjecture.

The gifts shall cease when "we know as we are known", whenever the Father becomes all in all, as we were told in the Bible, and people disliking it won't change that fact. Used to be a big sceptic about tongues myself, because people do misuse it a lot, but God has shown me I was wrong. Word of knowledge and other gifts like discerning of spirits also do still exist. There are even some Christian monks from my country known for the gift of word of knowledge, per example. They will know things about the believer that were not told them. Per example when people can't conceive, and they sometimes come to a monastery to pray and inquire prayer intercession from the monks. Then a monk will sometimes reveal to the person, why do you do this and that (speaking of some sin that the unknown person does), this is why you guys cannot have a child. And when they stop with this sin, they conceive a child and God is glorified. This is the gift of the Word of knowledge (knowing things that one didn't learn by natural means, often a sin that only the bearer knows) and Word of wisdom at the same time (divine solution, knowing exactly from God what to do to solve the problem), and that's just one example of things that happen on regular basis. I am a Protestant, not Orthodox, but have witnessed it. God will reveal things for His purposes to His servants and they still operate in spiritual gifts. I personally know some who have spoken Hebrew without previously learning it. People can argue until they are blue in the face, but they will not convince those who have witnessed supernatural occurrences like that which brought glory to God.

No such thing as a "sign gift". Unseen signs as metaphor follow after one has faith coming from the tongue of God.

Going to a monk and the monk guessing has nothing to do with prophecy "The tongue of God". We go to Christ who lives in us. He warns of of those who say we need a man to teach us rather that the Holy Spirit that indwells the believer.

The spiritual gifts are all available. No such thing as a sign (I did it gift) God is no longer bring new revelations in any language. We have the perfect by which we do see him face to face .Or faith, the unseen to the same unseen faith . having it face to face according to his knowledge. Revelation God's living abiding tongue is still the last book

There are no laws missing by which we could know him more adequately. Seeking approval by some work of self-edifying wonder is not a biblical understanding .We are filled the moment we believe. No need for weekly or daily fill ups.


If the new tongue is not the gospel (prophecy) .Then what kind of senseless sound must be made to cast out demons as lying spirits?

Four metaphors in the parable below that follow one believes.They all depend a a person hearing prophecy the word of God. The gospel

Mark 16:16-18 King James Version (KJV) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

 

[garee]

One thing I noticed in 1 Cor 14 that is not talked about very often is how he said, "but he that ignores these things, let him be ignored." And that is what I have had to do with several in this forum so far. Their intellectual dishonesty in making statements that I did not say and their willful beligerence in inventing hermeneutics that not even their own favorite protestant cessationist disagree with demonstrates that they will oppose themselves no matter what sound hermeneutic is presented and when people begin to expose themselves by inventing their own interpretations that do not exist in any commentary known to man it is time to shake off the dust and ignore them.

He who ignores what the tongue of God prophecy in exchange for making a senseless sounds and falling backwards .

Tongues is the word of God called prophecy. and the gift has not s ceased . the word of God that we have today is perfect. The confirmation is we believe .

The tongues of God is the approval of God. They are clearly understood words. it is never used as words that cause wonders with out meaning.

Acts 2 King James Version (KJV)And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

One filling person.

Tongues of fire (God's approval) like in Acts 2 are used 1 Kings 18 to reveal false prophecy as the tongues of men who make noises without meaning .Chanting, cutting themselves hoping for a wonderment, as that which apposes prophecy, the gospel . The spiritual gift.

Prophecy the tongue of licked up the attempt of the lying wonders.

1 Kings 18 :37-39 King James Version (KJV) Hear me, O Lord, hear me, that this people may know that thou art the Lord God, and that thou hast turned their heart back again. Then the fire of the Lord fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench. And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces: and they said, The Lord, he is the God; the Lord, he is the God.

 

[notuptome]

One thing I noticed in 1 Cor 14 that is not talked about very often is how he said, "but he that ignores these things, let him be ignored." And that is what I have had to do with several in this forum so far. Their intellectual dishonesty in making statements that I did not say and their willful beligerence in inventing hermeneutics that not even their own favorite protestant cessationist disagree with demonstrates that they will oppose themselves no matter what sound hermeneutic is presented and when people begin to expose themselves by inventing their own interpretations that do not exist in any commentary known to man it is time to shake off the dust and ignore them.

The favorite Pentecostal veiled threat against all who seek truth over fantasy. Address the scriptures and demonstrate that your position is valid according to those scriptures. Dismissing those who read the scriptures from a literal perspective and not a highly figurative position is not profitable. No knowledge is created and no understanding results.

I fear that those who claim to pray in tongues have never actually engaged in prayer. Never even approached prayer with a fervency that would lead to sweating or groaning from the from the inner man. Prayer in tongues is the easy way to appear spiritual without ever having to labor and take up the yoke of servitude in the Lord. Praying in the Holy Spirit is not associated with tongues.

Those who hate the truth stop their ears and cry aloud.

Acts 7:54 ¶ When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man’s feet, whose name was Saul.
59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.


For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Washed]

He who ignores what the tongue of God prophecy in exchange for making a senseless sounds and falling backwards .

That's not a sentence, it makes no sense.

Tongues is the word of God called prophecy.

Tongues is never called "the word of God called prophecy."

and the gift has not s ceased .

Neither has the manifestation of speaking in tongues.

the word of God that we have today is perfect. The confirmation is we believe .

The Bible is where we learn what speaking in tongues is. Paul, speaking by revelation, says he would like all Christians to speak in tongues.

The tongues of God is the approval of God.

Do you have a scripture that supports this? No.

They are clearly understood words.

1 Cor 14:2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

1 Cor 14:14) For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

it is never used as words that cause wonders with out meaning.

More garee-speak.

Acts 2 King James Version (KJV)And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Great verse. What point are you trying to make?

One filling person.

What?

Tongues of fire (God's approval) like in Acts 2 are used 1 Kings 18 to reveal false prophecy as the tongues of men who make noises without meaning .Chanting, cutting themselves hoping for a wonderment, as that which apposes prophecy, the gospel . The spiritual gift.

Prophecy the tongue of licked up the attempt of the lying wonders.

More garee-speak. Incomplete thoughts and sentences.

1 Kings 18 :37-39 King James Version (KJV) Hear me, O Lord, hear me, that this people may know that thou art the Lord God, and that thou hast turned their heart back again. Then the fire of the Lord fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench. And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces: and they said, The Lord, he is the God; the Lord, he is the God.

A great section of scripture. It has nothing to do with speaking in tongues.

Garee, your posts make no sense. Random words, random scriptures. You do this all the time.

 

[Washed]

Those who hate the truth stop their ears and cry aloud.

So stop doing it, Roger.

 

[Scribe]

And Eusebius was born in 265ad and died in 339ad so how could he be at the beginning of the list as "ad100 Eusebius(Church historian)"?

I think these were good references to what some of the early writers understood about the nature of tongues not that they spoke in tongues themselves. We all know that early writers reveal how quickly people began to fall away from their fervency of spirit and develop a lukewarm religious hierarchical ecclesiastical system that ultimately resulted in the dark ages. However they reveal that these tongues never were used to evangelize the world as some have erroneously stated. They reference what they understood them to be and whether they were right or wrong (the early church writers were often wrong about a great many things) they reveal to us their individual perspectives. And that is ALL that they provide for us. They are not authoritative they just give us a glimpse of their individual mindset at that time which is often quite depressing to realize how quickly they depart from the book of Acts. It is our job to rediscover and walk in the light of scripture whether Irenaeus or anyone else did or not. Also there are probably thousands of pentecostal theologians graduating from seminary every year world wide with at least 3 years of Greek and can read their New Testaments straight from the Greek for daily devotions. It is true that most pentecostals do not read Greek, but neither do MOST in any other denomination or church group.

 

[lenna]

I know I am late to this post and someone may have asked this already, but if you are going to list the early church fathers and their writings, you need to post a link showing where you got this. If it is from a scholarly book, please cite the book and pages where these quotes were found. If the book is a Pentecostal book, I would appreciate you making a note of that. I've studied a lot about the early church fathers, and never run across these quotes, which is why I want to verify it.

Thanks in advance.

Well of course Angela, but I did post a link. The link is the blue clickable type in my first sentence.

 

[lenna]

So, to save anyone else from looking up these supposed quotes of the early church fathers from page 2, there is no reputable source. Every single one came from a forum like CC, including CC, and a few Pentecostal websites.

Not one of these comes from a source which is a reputable scholar or book, or a reputable scholarly website. Plus, I would have to see the original Greek quoted before I would believe any of these quotes were translated correctly.

I tried various other searches, and several admitted the quotes had not been checked against the original language.

I did find one book review on google books which clearly says that Irenaenus was talking about what happened in the book of Acts, and had never himself heard anyone speak in tongues.

https://books.google.ca/books?id=i3...hUKEwiFndzf2pnqAhVvFjQIHbtkC0YQ6AEwCnoECAMQAQ

Of course, I have not looked up the other quotes, but I am certain something similar would be found. Unfortunately, most Pentecostals (Gordon Fee would be a major exception!) do not read Greek, and I am convinced would twist things to make it look like the early church fathers did speak in tongues.

The lack of a source immediately tipped me off that the post wasn't valid, and digging deep certainly showed my hunch was correct.

oh please

There was a source or link supplied. You didn't see it, so everything from there out is suspect?

LOL! Seems you have an axe to grind of some sort

 

[notuptome]

But things can be accomplished if you were to speak in tongues. You would be speaking the wonderful works of God (Acts 2:11), magnifying God (Acts 10:46), speaking divine secrets to God (1 Cor 14:2), giving thanks well (1 Cor 14:17), edifying yourself (1 Cor 14:4; Jude 20), and more.

This is exactly what happens when you share the word of God with unsaved and saved alike. This is why tongues ceased.

You are right about Rom 8:26. It is not talking about speaking in tongues. Tongues can certainly be uttered.

Tongues are not sounds but languages.

You could not be more wrong.

I am precisely on point.

1 Cor 14:5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Corrective not prescriptive

1 Cor 14:18) I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

Corrective not prescriptive and tongues had not ended at this point in time. Also no evidence that the tongues Paul spoke were not known languages. Paul likely spoke the three languages commonly present at the time.
[qquote]1 Cor 14:15) What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. [/quote]
What is this teaching in context? It's not teaching what you are implying it's teaching.

Of course Jesus did not speak in tongues. It was not possible to do so before the day of Pentecost.

That is a great quote. You do know that tongues are mentioned as far back a Genesis? It is evident that you cannot correctly define tongues.

Not according to Paul. Praying in the spirit is speaking in tongues Read 1 Cor 14:14-15 without your cessationist blinders on.

Verse 14 Paul does not say he is praying in an unknown tongue. He is presenting a theoretical matter by the word if. The matter is in context addressed by the better solution of prayer and singing with knowledge. Paul is not and never advocated doing things for Christ without knowledge.

Speaking in tongues is not imaginary prayer. Praying in the Holy Spirit IS speaking in tongues.

It is not scripturally supported nor advocated. Prayer in the Holy Spirit is not praying in tongues. That idea is a complete fabrication of over active imaginations. Prayer is holy and a ministry of saved people. Hebrews 4:16

Ignorance is never for the cause of Christ, Roger. You are ignorant about speaking in tongues. You teach against something you do not understand.

More Pentecostal threats? More cursing on all who choose truth over fantasy? You cannot show from the bible that what happened at Pentecost is the same as what happened in Corinth. There are fractures in the Pentecostal assembly over tongues as languages or ecstatic utterances.

Stick to the word of God. Those who are in Christ have the mind of Christ.

1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[lenna]

Here’s a worldly message of speaking in an unknown tongue. A hidden message is being conveyed to those that have ears to hear. Almost all pop and rock songs are written in an unknown tongue, and this is why those lyrics make no sense to those who don’t have ears to hear.

If there's a bustle in your hedgerow
Don't be alarmed now
It's just a spring clean for the May queen
Yes, there are two paths you can go by
But in the long run
There's still time to change the road you're on
And it makes me wonder
Your head is humming and it won't go
In case you don't know
The piper's calling you to join him
Dear lady, can you hear the wind blow?
And did you know
Your stairway lies on the whispering wind?
And as we wind on down the road
Our shadows taller than our soul
There walks a lady we all know
Who shines white light and wants to show
How everything still turns to gold
And if you listen very hard
The tune will come to you at last
When all are one and one is all
To be a rock and not to roll
And she's buying a stairway to Heaven

The Bible is written in this same unknown tongue so that only those who have ears to hear can receive the message.

uh

just no

 

[notuptome]

So stop doing it, Roger.

Childish. Look into the word of God and see yourself as God see you.

Believers are not filled with the Holy Spirit to speak in tongues. Believers are filled with the Holy Spirit to be witnesses of the saving grace of God before a lost and dying world.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Washed]

This is exactly what happens when you share the word of God with unsaved and saved alike. This is why tongues ceased.

Tongues are not sounds but languages.

I am precisely on point.

Corrective not prescriptive

Corrective not prescriptive and tongues had not ended at this point in time. Also no evidence that the tongues Paul spoke were not known languages. Paul likely spoke the three languages commonly present at the time.

1 Cor 14:15) What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

What is this teaching in context? It's not teaching what you are implying it's teaching.

That is a great quote. You do know that tongues are mentioned as far back a Genesis? It is evident that you cannot correctly define tongues.

Verse 14 Paul does not say he is praying in an unknown tongue. He is presenting a theoretical matter by the word if. The matter is in context addressed by the better solution of prayer and singing with knowledge. Paul is not and never advocated doing things for Christ without knowledge.

It is not scripturally supported nor advocated. Prayer in the Holy Spirit is not praying in tongues. That idea is a complete fabrication of over active imaginations. Prayer is holy and a ministry of saved people. Hebrews 4:16

More Pentecostal threats? More cursing on all who choose truth over fantasy? You cannot show from the bible that what happened at Pentecost is the same as what happened in Corinth. There are fractures in the Pentecostal assembly over tongues as languages or ecstatic utterances.

Stick to the word of God. Those who are in Christ have the mind of Christ.

1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Haters gonna hate, cessationists gonna be cessationists, no matter what the Bible says.

Your false piety is obnoxious.

 

[Washed]

Childish. Look into the word of God and see yourself as God see you.

Believers are not filled with the Holy Spirit to speak in tongues.

1 Cor 14:5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Believers are filled with the Holy Spirit to be witnesses of the saving grace of God before a lost and dying world.

That too.

 

[notuptome]

Haters gonna hate, cessationists gonna be cessationists, no matter what the Bible says.

Your false piety is obnoxious.

Biblical Christians are going to stand for Gods word.

There is no cessation in sanctification or evangelism of the lost.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Washed]

Biblical Christians are going to stand for Gods word.

You bet we are. I hope one day you join us.

There is no cessation in sanctification or evangelism of the lost.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Your false piety is obnoxious.

 

[notuptome]

1 Cor 14:5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Why the contrast? Why would Paul write in a fashion to contrast tongues with prophecy? There is always a reason.

That too.

When you come to know that it is not an after thought you will begin to walk the path that is made by the footsteps of Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[KJV1611]

uh

just no

Uh yes lol. Stairway to heaven is written in an unknown tongue. It’s the language of symbolism.

And yes, the Bible is written in the exact same unknown tongue.

The letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. The spirit is the unknown tongue.

 

[Washed]

Why the contrast? Why would Paul write in a fashion to contrast tongues with prophecy? There is always a reason.

Because tongues is not prophecy. We are to covet to prophecy, and not forbid speaking in tongues, like you continually do.

When you come to know that it is not an after thought you will begin to walk the path that is made by the footsteps of Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Your false piety is obnoxious.

 

[lenna]

Biblical Christians are going to stand for Gods word.

There is no cessation in sanctification or evangelism of the lost.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

What is a biblical Christian? It seems you suggest a biblical Christian is one who believes just like you

A Christian is one who follows Christ. The Bible is a book and while the foundation of what a Christian believes, it is not meant to be a stagnant platform from which certain people preach at others, bellowing at them that they are demonic or what have you (as so many cessationists are want to do, such as the double minded MacArthur of 'strange fire' fame)

So it becomes obvious that in your mind, not in truth but in your mind, you do not believe those who speak in tongues are Christians.

That, should be noted, understood and most definitely kept in mind as people respond to you, should they decide to do so.

I have nothing else to say to you so as your posts are opinionated and not really based on scripture, but rather your personal opinion, or possibly the opinion of your pastor or whatever, but you don't have the respect for others here that would indicate you actually give two hoots.

 

[Washed]

Uh yes lol. Stairway to heaven is written in an unknown tongue. It’s the language of symbolism.

And yes, the Bible is written in the exact same unknown tongue.

"Stairway to Heaven" was written in English. The Bible was primarily written in Hebrew and Greek.

The letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. The spirit is the unknown tongue.

People with the gift of the Holy Spirit can manifest that spirit. One of the manifestations is speaking in tongues.