Questions about JW’s
- Thread starter NOV25
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The LORD possessed
me in the beginning of his
way, before his works of
old.
22
מֵ עלָ ם 23:8
m·oulm
from·eon
נִ סַּ כְ תִּ י
nskthi
I-was-inaugurated
מֵ ר ֹאשׁ
m·rash
from·beginning
מִ קַּ דְ מֵ י
m·qdmi
from·precedings-of
־
-
אָ רֶ ץ
artz
earth
:
:
I was set up from
everlasting, from the
beginning, or ever the earth
was.
Different of course from your choice of translations.
The pure word has a certain ring and clarity you guys can't seem to find.
me in the beginning of his
way, before his works of
old.
22
מֵ עלָ ם 23:8
m·oulm
from·eon
נִ סַּ כְ תִּ י
nskthi
I-was-inaugurated
מֵ ר ֹאשׁ
m·rash
from·beginning
מִ קַּ דְ מֵ י
m·qdmi
from·precedings-of
־
-
אָ רֶ ץ
artz
earth
:
:
I was set up from
everlasting, from the
beginning, or ever the earth
was.
Different of course from your choice of translations.
The pure word has a certain ring and clarity you guys can't seem to find.
Nope Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever
He did not begin to exist separately as you say.
The church fathers were not some diety and infallible as you seem to believe.
Nor is it wise to cherry pick ideas from those ancients that looked through a prism of a destroyed israel. They were hamstrung in that regard.
Wrong in many things. Hence we see "against heresies of the ancients "
Many heresies of the church fathers.
....where Catholicism was born
He did not begin to exist separately as you say.
The church fathers were not some diety and infallible as you seem to believe.
Nor is it wise to cherry pick ideas from those ancients that looked through a prism of a destroyed israel. They were hamstrung in that regard.
Wrong in many things. Hence we see "against heresies of the ancients "
Many heresies of the church fathers.
....where Catholicism was born
Jesus definately was not "inside the Father"
...And that concept make up one person.
That is akin to saying the bride of christ is one person.
Many can be one.
The trinity is one.
Not a human reasoned or human originated concept.
It is a eternal and heavenly concept received as truth not mentally challenged and tested.
...And that concept make up one person.
That is akin to saying the bride of christ is one person.
Many can be one.
The trinity is one.
Not a human reasoned or human originated concept.
It is a eternal and heavenly concept received as truth not mentally challenged and tested.
.
● Col 1:15 . . He is the firstborn of all creation
The Greek word translated "firstborn" in that verse is prototokos, which
never means created first; no, it always means born first. The correct Greek
word for created first is protoktistos.
The average JW probably doesn't know the difference between prototokos
and protoktistos; and no doubt would care little about it anyway. To some;
born first and created first are essentially one and the same.
The thing to note is that "firstborn" doesn't always refer to birth order. The
term also refers to pay grade, so to speak, and as such is transferrable from
an elder sibling to a younger, e.g. Esau to Jacob (Gen 25:23) Manasseh to
Ephraim (Gen 48:13-14) and Reuben to Joseph (Gen 49:3-4, 1Chr 5:1).
There was a time when David was God's firstborn (Ps 89:20-27). The
position was later transferred to one of David's sons. You'd think that the
Jews' religious experts of Jesus' day would have known about this.
● Matt 22:41-46 . . Now while the Pharisees were gathered together Jesus
asked them: “What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?” They
said to him: “David’s" He said to them: “How, then, is it that David by
inspiration calls him ‘Lord,’ saying, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right
hand until I put your enemies beneath your feet” ’? If, therefore, David calls
him ‘Lord,’ how is he his son?”
Jesus was referring to Psalm 110:1, wherein we will find two very different
Hebrew words for "Lord"'
The first is Yehovah (yeh-ho-vaw') a.k.a. Jehovah, Yhvh, and Yahweh; which
is a name reserved for the one true God only and no other.
The second is 'adown (aw-done'); a very common title of respect for one's
superiors in the Old Testament. Sarah revered her husband Abraham as
'adown (Gen 18:12) Rachel revered her dad Laban as 'adown (Gen 31:5)
and Jacob revered his brother Esau as 'adown (Gen 33:8). So then; Psalm
110:1 can be translated like this:
"The utterance of Jehovah to my superior: Sit at my right hand until I place
your enemies as a stool for your feet."
David is the paterfamilias of his own line of royalty, making him superior to
all of his male progeny; none of them outrank him, all are his subordinates.
But Ps 110:1 speaks of one of David's male progeny who somehow breaks
the rules; and the Jews' religious experts were utterly baffled by it.
● Matt 22:46 . . And no one was able to answer him a word
The Jews' religious experts were no doubt aware, by means of their Old
Testament studies, that the rank of firstborn can be moved around among
siblings, but nobody even dreamed that a father's supremacy could be taken
from him and given to one of his children; in effect making the child superior
to its parents.
This was something strange to their Jewish way of thinking; yet there it is in
black and white in their own scriptures. They had somehow failed to catch
the significance of Ps 110:1 until Jesus drew their attention to it.
Now; the covenant that Moses' people agreed upon with God as per Exodus,
Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy does not permit children to be
superior to their parents.
● Ex 20:12 . . Honor your father and your mother
So then, Christ would have to outrank his father David by another route
than family; and he does.
Renaming is fairly common in the Bible, e.g. Abram to Abraham, Jacob to
Israel, Ben-oni to Benjamin, Simon to Cephas, and Rev 2:17. But with
Christ, we encounter an astonishing renaming.
● Phil 2:8-11 . . God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him
the name that is above every other name, so that in the name of Jesus
every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those
under the ground, and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus
Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. (cf. Eph 1:20-21)
FAQ: What is "the name" that is above every other name?
A: Jehovah
FAQ: Is that the reason why Jesus outranks his father David?
A: Yes. Jesus has the God-given right to use Jehovah's name as his own
name; which allows him all the respect and reverence that the name
deserves; viz: failure to revere Jesus as Jehovah dishonors the name of God
the Father.
_
● Col 1:15 . . He is the firstborn of all creation
The Greek word translated "firstborn" in that verse is prototokos, which
never means created first; no, it always means born first. The correct Greek
word for created first is protoktistos.
The average JW probably doesn't know the difference between prototokos
and protoktistos; and no doubt would care little about it anyway. To some;
born first and created first are essentially one and the same.
The thing to note is that "firstborn" doesn't always refer to birth order. The
term also refers to pay grade, so to speak, and as such is transferrable from
an elder sibling to a younger, e.g. Esau to Jacob (Gen 25:23) Manasseh to
Ephraim (Gen 48:13-14) and Reuben to Joseph (Gen 49:3-4, 1Chr 5:1).
There was a time when David was God's firstborn (Ps 89:20-27). The
position was later transferred to one of David's sons. You'd think that the
Jews' religious experts of Jesus' day would have known about this.
● Matt 22:41-46 . . Now while the Pharisees were gathered together Jesus
asked them: “What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?” They
said to him: “David’s" He said to them: “How, then, is it that David by
inspiration calls him ‘Lord,’ saying, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right
hand until I put your enemies beneath your feet” ’? If, therefore, David calls
him ‘Lord,’ how is he his son?”
Jesus was referring to Psalm 110:1, wherein we will find two very different
Hebrew words for "Lord"'
The first is Yehovah (yeh-ho-vaw') a.k.a. Jehovah, Yhvh, and Yahweh; which
is a name reserved for the one true God only and no other.
The second is 'adown (aw-done'); a very common title of respect for one's
superiors in the Old Testament. Sarah revered her husband Abraham as
'adown (Gen 18:12) Rachel revered her dad Laban as 'adown (Gen 31:5)
and Jacob revered his brother Esau as 'adown (Gen 33:8). So then; Psalm
110:1 can be translated like this:
"The utterance of Jehovah to my superior: Sit at my right hand until I place
your enemies as a stool for your feet."
David is the paterfamilias of his own line of royalty, making him superior to
all of his male progeny; none of them outrank him, all are his subordinates.
But Ps 110:1 speaks of one of David's male progeny who somehow breaks
the rules; and the Jews' religious experts were utterly baffled by it.
● Matt 22:46 . . And no one was able to answer him a word
The Jews' religious experts were no doubt aware, by means of their Old
Testament studies, that the rank of firstborn can be moved around among
siblings, but nobody even dreamed that a father's supremacy could be taken
from him and given to one of his children; in effect making the child superior
to its parents.
This was something strange to their Jewish way of thinking; yet there it is in
black and white in their own scriptures. They had somehow failed to catch
the significance of Ps 110:1 until Jesus drew their attention to it.
Now; the covenant that Moses' people agreed upon with God as per Exodus,
Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy does not permit children to be
superior to their parents.
● Ex 20:12 . . Honor your father and your mother
So then, Christ would have to outrank his father David by another route
than family; and he does.
Renaming is fairly common in the Bible, e.g. Abram to Abraham, Jacob to
Israel, Ben-oni to Benjamin, Simon to Cephas, and Rev 2:17. But with
Christ, we encounter an astonishing renaming.
● Phil 2:8-11 . . God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him
the name that is above every other name, so that in the name of Jesus
every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those
under the ground, and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus
Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. (cf. Eph 1:20-21)
FAQ: What is "the name" that is above every other name?
A: Jehovah
FAQ: Is that the reason why Jesus outranks his father David?
A: Yes. Jesus has the God-given right to use Jehovah's name as his own
name; which allows him all the respect and reverence that the name
deserves; viz: failure to revere Jesus as Jehovah dishonors the name of God
the Father.
_
Before I get jumped on here, let me explain.
John 14:
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Specifically this portion:
the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
^
That CLEARLY claims what Jesus said and did was actually the FATHER living inside Jesus doing/saying!
And LOOK what the Father confirms:
Mark 12:
32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.
34 And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.
Verse 32 and 33 is a SCRIBE (someone who spends their life writing/copying the Bible every day until they die)(so they know the BIBLE well) claims God is ONE PERSON by calling God in verse 32 HE and verse 33 HIM.
So what does Jesus/FATHER living inside say back?
when Jesus saw that he answered wisely
^
This claims Jesus saw the Scribe answered WISELY about God being ONE PERSON, and that is the FATHER doing this!
If God was 3 people, wouldn't Jesus/Father living inside CORRECT the Scribe?
Instead, Jesus saw that he answered wisely!
This is why I changed my views because the Father confirmed God is ONE PERSON, not 3!
John 14:
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Specifically this portion:
the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
^
That CLEARLY claims what Jesus said and did was actually the FATHER living inside Jesus doing/saying!
And LOOK what the Father confirms:
Mark 12:
32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.
34 And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.
Verse 32 and 33 is a SCRIBE (someone who spends their life writing/copying the Bible every day until they die)(so they know the BIBLE well) claims God is ONE PERSON by calling God in verse 32 HE and verse 33 HIM.
So what does Jesus/FATHER living inside say back?
when Jesus saw that he answered wisely
^
This claims Jesus saw the Scribe answered WISELY about God being ONE PERSON, and that is the FATHER doing this!
If God was 3 people, wouldn't Jesus/Father living inside CORRECT the Scribe?
Instead, Jesus saw that he answered wisely!
This is why I changed my views because the Father confirmed God is ONE PERSON, not 3!
You keep saying "if you use the actual Hebrew text", well I am, Hebrew translated into English. I'm sure neither of us can actually read Hebrew and if Hebrew was a requirement for reading the scriptures then I'm sure the scriptures themselves would stipulate such a requirement... not you. Asking someone to use Hebrew is a silly request unless that one is actually versed in Hebrew.
However, I've noticed you said"This is why I go to the Church Fathers. They know better than us both." to another member of this forum quite recently, why do you reject what I say regarding Jesus as being the one described as the Wisdom of God when we see from the early church Fathers this EXACT teaching. Some basically quote the passage. See below and I'll highlight exactly where they profess the same thing I have, that Jesus is the Wisdom of God. The scriptures themselves name Jesus as the Wisdom of God in the NT on numerous occasions.
Below are three examples are early church fathers stating the same thing as I do, Jesus is the Wisdom of God. Seeing, as you respect their understanding so much, do you now accept their teaching that Jesus is the wisdom of God? "This is why I go to the Church Fathers. They know better than us both."
Tertullian (160 – 230 C.E.)
“The very Wisdom of God is declared to be born and created, for the especial reason that we should not suppose that there is any other being than God alone who is unbegotten and uncreated. For if that, which from its being inherent in the Lord was of Him and in Him, was yet not without a beginning,--I mean His wisdom, which was then born and created, when in the thought of God It began to assume motion for the arrangement of His creative works,--how much more impossible is it that anything should have been without a beginning which was extrinsic to the Lord! But if this same Wisdom is the Word of God, in the capacity of Wisdom, and (as being He) without whom nothing was made, just as also (nothing) was set in order without Wisdom, how can it be that anything, except the Father, should be older, and on this account indeed nobler, than the Son of God, the only-begotten and first-begotten Word? Not to say that what is unbegotten is stronger than that which is born, and what is not made more powerful than that which is made. Because that which did not require a Maker to give it existence, will be much more elevated in rank than that [the Son] which had an author to bring it into being.” – Tertullian, Against Hermogenes, Chapter 18
“what can be better entitled to the name of Wisdom than the Reason or the Word of God? Listen therefore to Wisdom herself, constituted in the character of a Second Person: "At the first the Lord created me as the beginning of His ways" (quoting Prov 8:22)," with a view to His own works, before He made the earth, before the mountains were settled; moreover, before all the hills did He beget me;" that is to say, He [God] created and generated me [Wisdom] in His own intelligence.” – Tertullian, Against Praxeas, Chapter 6
“But this Offspring, which was truly brought forth from the Father, was with the Father before all the creatures, and the Father communed with Him; even as the Scripture by Solomon has made clear, that He whom Solomon calls Wisdom, was begotten as a Beginning before all His creatures and as Offspring by God” - Justin Martyr "Dialogue with Trypho - Page 63
And who is this Christ, with his marvellous tale ? As if he were a mere ordinary man , or a practiser of magic ; as if he were stolen from his grave by his disciples, and were really now with the dead ; as if he were not in heaven , whence he shall quickly come, with a terrible commotion of the whole world , with distress of nations an d wailn of all men , ex cept Christians ; as the Virtue of God 6 , as the Spirit of God , as the Word , and the Wisdom, and the Reason , and the Son of God. - Clement The Apology Page 302 Chap XXIII
Do you accept their teachings?
However, I've noticed you said"This is why I go to the Church Fathers. They know better than us both." to another member of this forum quite recently, why do you reject what I say regarding Jesus as being the one described as the Wisdom of God when we see from the early church Fathers this EXACT teaching. Some basically quote the passage. See below and I'll highlight exactly where they profess the same thing I have, that Jesus is the Wisdom of God. The scriptures themselves name Jesus as the Wisdom of God in the NT on numerous occasions.
Below are three examples are early church fathers stating the same thing as I do, Jesus is the Wisdom of God. Seeing, as you respect their understanding so much, do you now accept their teaching that Jesus is the wisdom of God? "This is why I go to the Church Fathers. They know better than us both."
Tertullian (160 – 230 C.E.)
“The very Wisdom of God is declared to be born and created, for the especial reason that we should not suppose that there is any other being than God alone who is unbegotten and uncreated. For if that, which from its being inherent in the Lord was of Him and in Him, was yet not without a beginning,--I mean His wisdom, which was then born and created, when in the thought of God It began to assume motion for the arrangement of His creative works,--how much more impossible is it that anything should have been without a beginning which was extrinsic to the Lord! But if this same Wisdom is the Word of God, in the capacity of Wisdom, and (as being He) without whom nothing was made, just as also (nothing) was set in order without Wisdom, how can it be that anything, except the Father, should be older, and on this account indeed nobler, than the Son of God, the only-begotten and first-begotten Word? Not to say that what is unbegotten is stronger than that which is born, and what is not made more powerful than that which is made. Because that which did not require a Maker to give it existence, will be much more elevated in rank than that [the Son] which had an author to bring it into being.” – Tertullian, Against Hermogenes, Chapter 18
“what can be better entitled to the name of Wisdom than the Reason or the Word of God? Listen therefore to Wisdom herself, constituted in the character of a Second Person: "At the first the Lord created me as the beginning of His ways" (quoting Prov 8:22)," with a view to His own works, before He made the earth, before the mountains were settled; moreover, before all the hills did He beget me;" that is to say, He [God] created and generated me [Wisdom] in His own intelligence.” – Tertullian, Against Praxeas, Chapter 6
“But this Offspring, which was truly brought forth from the Father, was with the Father before all the creatures, and the Father communed with Him; even as the Scripture by Solomon has made clear, that He whom Solomon calls Wisdom, was begotten as a Beginning before all His creatures and as Offspring by God” - Justin Martyr "Dialogue with Trypho - Page 63
And who is this Christ, with his marvellous tale ? As if he were a mere ordinary man , or a practiser of magic ; as if he were stolen from his grave by his disciples, and were really now with the dead ; as if he were not in heaven , whence he shall quickly come, with a terrible commotion of the whole world , with distress of nations an d wailn of all men , ex cept Christians ; as the Virtue of God 6 , as the Spirit of God , as the Word , and the Wisdom, and the Reason , and the Son of God. - Clement The Apology Page 302 Chap XXIII
Do you accept their teachings?
"Let Us" "Our Image" "Our Likeness"
Jesus Christ was with God in the beginning before the creation, as the 2nd person of the Godhead.
Genesis 1:26KJV
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Jesus Christ was with God in the beginning before the creation, as the 2nd person of the Godhead.
Genesis 1:26KJV
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
I'm not getting doctrine from them, I get my doctrine from the scriptures, it just so happens that the early church fathers also professed the same understanding that Jesus is the Wisdom of God as I find in the scriptures.
Biker said he looks to the early church fathers for accurate knowledge of truths since they existed close to the time it was written. I merely showed them what they wrote and asked him to affirm what they said.
Biker said he looks to the early church fathers for accurate knowledge of truths since they existed close to the time it was written. I merely showed them what they wrote and asked him to affirm what they said.
Greetings NOV25!
We can nip this in bud before it gets going. That said, Adam's state is irrelevant in regards to whether or not JW are of Christ, which is the real issue.
JW's believe that Jesus is the spirit brother of Lucifer, which would make Jesus a created being and would make any other Biblical topic a moot point. That in itself disqualifies them as being true believers right out of the gate. Paul said that there are Christ's many and gospels many and the JW's are believing in one of those other Christ's and other gospels.
They claim that He is not God and even reinterpreted John 1:1 to say "In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was [a] god." They added the "a god" in support of their belief that Jesus is not God. However, that is only one scripture that reveals that Jesus is God. There are many, many, many more scriptures that proclaim Jesus as being God. We could start with Isaiah 7:14
"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgine will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call Him Immanuel."
Immanuel means, 'With us is God,' i.e. Jesus is God in the flesh.
Regarding this I John 4:2 says "This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God." The meaning of "Jesus Christ has come in the flesh" is that He existed with God and as God before He became a human being.
After Jesus' resurrection, He appeared the first time to His disciples and Thomas was not there. And when the disciples told him that they had seen the Lord, he did not believe them. The following week Jesus appeared to them again and this time Thomas was there and said to Him, "Thomas, look at my hands and my feet. Puts your hand in my side. Stop doubting and believe!" And Thomas said, "My Lord and My God." Jesus said, "Thomas, you believe because you have seen. Blessed are those who believe but have not seen. Here we have Thomas calling Jesus God. Now if Jesus was not God, then the Lord would have rebuked him for saying so.
We also have God the Father calling Jesus God:
But about the Son He (God the Father) says:
“Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever, and justice is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, Your God, has anointed You above Your companions with the oil of joy.”
We also have the Jews recognizing that Jesus was calling himself God by His claim to them:
My sheep listen to My voice; I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand. My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all. No one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”
At this, the Jews again picked up stones to stone Him. But Jesus responded, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone Me?”
“We are not stoning You for any good work,” said the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because You, who are a man, declare Yourself to be God.”
The Jews understood that by Jesus saying that "I and the Father are one" that He was proclaiming to be God. Here is another example:
"For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to everyone. It instructs us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live sensible, upright, and godly lives in the present age, as we await the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.
My point in all this is that, you don't have to bother going around and around with the JW regarding any other Biblical topics, because they're exposed as a false right out of the gate by believing that Jesus is a created being. You don't need to go any further than that. Jesus as God is exactly the issue that should be brought up when they come to our doors, otherwise you will get caught up in a bunch of other scriptural topics, as well as the removal of the word Jehovah. Everything else after that is a moot point. Consider the following:
"When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. But He placed His right hand on me and said, “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last, the Living One. I was dead, and behold, now I am alive forever and ever! (Rev.1:17-18)
"These are the words of the First and the Last, who died and returned to life."
"“Behold, I am coming soon, and My reward is with Me, to give to each one according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”
The Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End, are characteristics that both the Father and Son share.
If you ask a JW who the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last is, they will tell you it is God the Father alone as Jehovah. Then all you have to do is simply read them Rev.1:17-18 which identifies Jesus as being the First and the Last as the One who died and came back to life.
We can nip this in bud before it gets going. That said, Adam's state is irrelevant in regards to whether or not JW are of Christ, which is the real issue.
JW's believe that Jesus is the spirit brother of Lucifer, which would make Jesus a created being and would make any other Biblical topic a moot point. That in itself disqualifies them as being true believers right out of the gate. Paul said that there are Christ's many and gospels many and the JW's are believing in one of those other Christ's and other gospels.
They claim that He is not God and even reinterpreted John 1:1 to say "In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was [a] god." They added the "a god" in support of their belief that Jesus is not God. However, that is only one scripture that reveals that Jesus is God. There are many, many, many more scriptures that proclaim Jesus as being God. We could start with Isaiah 7:14
"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgine will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call Him Immanuel."
Immanuel means, 'With us is God,' i.e. Jesus is God in the flesh.
Regarding this I John 4:2 says "This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God." The meaning of "Jesus Christ has come in the flesh" is that He existed with God and as God before He became a human being.
After Jesus' resurrection, He appeared the first time to His disciples and Thomas was not there. And when the disciples told him that they had seen the Lord, he did not believe them. The following week Jesus appeared to them again and this time Thomas was there and said to Him, "Thomas, look at my hands and my feet. Puts your hand in my side. Stop doubting and believe!" And Thomas said, "My Lord and My God." Jesus said, "Thomas, you believe because you have seen. Blessed are those who believe but have not seen. Here we have Thomas calling Jesus God. Now if Jesus was not God, then the Lord would have rebuked him for saying so.
We also have God the Father calling Jesus God:
But about the Son He (God the Father) says:
“Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever, and justice is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, Your God, has anointed You above Your companions with the oil of joy.”
We also have the Jews recognizing that Jesus was calling himself God by His claim to them:
My sheep listen to My voice; I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand. My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all. No one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”
At this, the Jews again picked up stones to stone Him. But Jesus responded, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone Me?”
“We are not stoning You for any good work,” said the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because You, who are a man, declare Yourself to be God.”
The Jews understood that by Jesus saying that "I and the Father are one" that He was proclaiming to be God. Here is another example:
"For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to everyone. It instructs us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live sensible, upright, and godly lives in the present age, as we await the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.
My point in all this is that, you don't have to bother going around and around with the JW regarding any other Biblical topics, because they're exposed as a false right out of the gate by believing that Jesus is a created being. You don't need to go any further than that. Jesus as God is exactly the issue that should be brought up when they come to our doors, otherwise you will get caught up in a bunch of other scriptural topics, as well as the removal of the word Jehovah. Everything else after that is a moot point. Consider the following:
"When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. But He placed His right hand on me and said, “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last, the Living One. I was dead, and behold, now I am alive forever and ever! (Rev.1:17-18)
"These are the words of the First and the Last, who died and returned to life."
"“Behold, I am coming soon, and My reward is with Me, to give to each one according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”
The Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End, are characteristics that both the Father and Son share.
If you ask a JW who the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last is, they will tell you it is God the Father alone as Jehovah. Then all you have to do is simply read them Rev.1:17-18 which identifies Jesus as being the First and the Last as the One who died and came back to life.
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Because the WORD was made flesh according to John 1 or was Manifested into flesh according to Titus. The WISDOM has always been known as the Holy Spirit. But the Church fathers declare both were BEGAT from God, which is the Hebrew BEGAT for a PURPOSE, not for an offspring.
By definition of what you have chosen to use, You are claiming the WORD and the WISDOM are both Christ.
But look at this example:
God, then, having His own Word internal within His own bowels,
........... begat Him, emitting Him
........... along with His own wisdom before all things.
but the wisdom [Spirit in this instance is Sophia] of God which was in Him, and
........... His holy Word which was always present with Him.
If we use this portion here:
but the wisdom [Spirit in this instance is Sophia] of God which was in Him, and
........... His holy Word which was always present with Him.
That shows one remains in GOD and the other is external of God.
So, are you claiming this is how Christ is ONE with the FATHER?
The WISDOM portion is still within God while the WORD portion is external?