We experience a death to our old sin nature once we are baptized into Christ.
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A very smart person on this site put it this way...
I thought it would be wise to mention Romans seven that seems to have the whole Christian world in confusion. There's really only one honest way to read Romans seven that deals with Paul talking about himself in the present tense when he wrote it. He writes it after he spends a chapter informing us about fifteen times that by joining with Christ we have died to sin through the spirit. He goes on to say his flesh still struggles, but that it's not him anymore because he's no longer living after the flesh. The reason there's no condemnation for us in Christ is because it's the flesh that has the sin, but the spirit does not, and it's the spirit that is our new man.
I thought it would be wise to mention Romans seven that seems to have the whole Christian world in confusion. There's really only one honest way to read Romans seven that deals with Paul talking about himself in the present tense when he wrote it. He writes it after he spends a chapter informing us about fifteen times that by joining with Christ we have died to sin through the spirit. He goes on to say his flesh still struggles, but that it's not him anymore because he's no longer living after the flesh. The reason there's no condemnation for us in Christ is because it's the flesh that has the sin, but the spirit does not, and it's the spirit that is our new man.
I wish you had of said Some Christians of today feel that way, but hopefully every born again Christian knows that GOD himself justified us and we have to believe we have been made righteous by GOD and that GOD IS a SPIRIT and those who worship Must worship HIM In Spirit and In truth.
Good post though.
Good post though.
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A very smart person on this site put it this way...
I thought it would be wise to mention Romans seven that seems to have the whole Christian world in confusion. There's really only one honest way to read Romans seven that deals with Paul talking about himself in the present tense when he wrote it. He writes it after he spends a chapter informing us about fifteen times that by joining with Christ we have died to sin through the spirit. He goes on to say his flesh still struggles, but that it's not him anymore because he's no longer living after the flesh. The reason there's no condemnation for us in Christ is because it's the flesh that has the sin, but the spirit does not, and it's the spirit that is our new man.
I thought it would be wise to mention Romans seven that seems to have the whole Christian world in confusion. There's really only one honest way to read Romans seven that deals with Paul talking about himself in the present tense when he wrote it. He writes it after he spends a chapter informing us about fifteen times that by joining with Christ we have died to sin through the spirit. He goes on to say his flesh still struggles, but that it's not him anymore because he's no longer living after the flesh. The reason there's no condemnation for us in Christ is because it's the flesh that has the sin, but the spirit does not, and it's the spirit that is our new man.
A very smart person on this site put it this way...
I thought it would be wise to mention Romans seven that seems to have the whole Christian world in confusion. There's really only one honest way to read Romans seven that deals with Paul talking about himself in the present tense when he wrote it. He writes it after he spends a chapter informing us about fifteen times that by joining with Christ we have died to sin through the spirit. He goes on to say his flesh still struggles, but that it's not him anymore because he's no longer living after the flesh. The reason there's no condemnation for us in Christ is because it's the flesh that has the sin, but the spirit does not, and it's the spirit that is our new man.
I thought it would be wise to mention Romans seven that seems to have the whole Christian world in confusion. There's really only one honest way to read Romans seven that deals with Paul talking about himself in the present tense when he wrote it. He writes it after he spends a chapter informing us about fifteen times that by joining with Christ we have died to sin through the spirit. He goes on to say his flesh still struggles, but that it's not him anymore because he's no longer living after the flesh. The reason there's no condemnation for us in Christ is because it's the flesh that has the sin, but the spirit does not, and it's the spirit that is our new man.
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well you specifically told me a 'true believer' has no business in Romans 7, and when i mentioned that earlier this week someone told me a 'true believer' has equally no business in Romans 6, you said that was good advice.
so it appeared to me you were in agreement about skipping straight to 8 without letting 6 or 7 inform it.
that sounds like 'might as well delete' to me.
i'm pretty sure that the view which says Christians have 'no business' in Romans 6 & 7 is the biased one, and i don't think i have anything to learn from someone who says those chapters have nothing to say to me. i have a hard time believing you actually find them clear if you believe you have no business in them.
so it appeared to me you were in agreement about skipping straight to 8 without letting 6 or 7 inform it.
that sounds like 'might as well delete' to me.
i'm pretty sure that the view which says Christians have 'no business' in Romans 6 & 7 is the biased one, and i don't think i have anything to learn from someone who says those chapters have nothing to say to me. i have a hard time believing you actually find them clear if you believe you have no business in them.
he write all this in 1st person present tense. he's talking about himself.
the opening paragraph of the chapter continues what he has been saying about the truth of every believer, that the body is dead but the spirit is life.
it's really awkward to try to force the things that follow in chapter 7 to be hypothetical pre-belief person-without-God business. it does not fit the narrative at all, and it contradicts the grammar.
in first person present tense he says, 'with his mind he serves God' -- is this talking about unbelievers? really?
there is a very clear, very straightforward thing being said. it is IMO the bias introduced by people whose doctrines have no room for the truth of this that tries to interpret it contrary to what it plainly says. many things in scripture are hard sayings, difficult to accept - and many things are mysteries, difficult to comprehend. the struggle of the flesh vs. the spirit in the life of a person who serves God in spirit but stumbles in the body is not a difficult thing to interpret, but it may be hard to acknowledge, and to accept.
it flows very naturally from ch. 1-5 and segues perfectly to ch. 8
the opening paragraph of the chapter continues what he has been saying about the truth of every believer, that the body is dead but the spirit is life.
it's really awkward to try to force the things that follow in chapter 7 to be hypothetical pre-belief person-without-God business. it does not fit the narrative at all, and it contradicts the grammar.
in first person present tense he says, 'with his mind he serves God' -- is this talking about unbelievers? really?
there is a very clear, very straightforward thing being said. it is IMO the bias introduced by people whose doctrines have no room for the truth of this that tries to interpret it contrary to what it plainly says. many things in scripture are hard sayings, difficult to accept - and many things are mysteries, difficult to comprehend. the struggle of the flesh vs. the spirit in the life of a person who serves God in spirit but stumbles in the body is not a difficult thing to interpret, but it may be hard to acknowledge, and to accept.
it flows very naturally from ch. 1-5 and segues perfectly to ch. 8
I do not believe "everyone in those days were well aware of all of the beliefs".
Read Acts 15. The Jews who held to the law were going into the gentile regions (after Paul taught the gentiles about Christ) and they were telling the gentiles that, in addition to faith in the gospel, they had to be circumcised and follow the law of Moses, and then they taught them the law (Acts 15:5).
Follow the text and you will see that Paul is not emphasizing a lifestyle of continuing in sin based upon the Jewish Law.
At the end of Romans 5, Paul gives instruction that where sin abounded, grace did much more abound (Rom 5:20).
Paul then goes on with the thought that "well, if God’s grace abounds much more where sin abounds, then why don't we just sin up a storm which will allow God's grace to abound even more?"
And the answer to that is an emphatic God forbid!!! How shall we that are dead to sin live any longer therein.
Then Paul goes on to explain that we are dead to sin, that we are no longer in bondage to sin, that we are free from sin and are now servants of righteousness, we have fruit unto righteousness unto holiness and everlasting life.
Nope. Not at all.
Did you not read what I submitted concerning grace being a very powerful instructor in Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world (Titus 2:12)?
that is definitely not “promoting a license to sin”.
Read Acts 15. The Jews who held to the law were going into the gentile regions (after Paul taught the gentiles about Christ) and they were telling the gentiles that, in addition to faith in the gospel, they had to be circumcised and follow the law of Moses, and then they taught them the law (Acts 15:5).
Follow the text and you will see that Paul is not emphasizing a lifestyle of continuing in sin based upon the Jewish Law.
At the end of Romans 5, Paul gives instruction that where sin abounded, grace did much more abound (Rom 5:20).
Paul then goes on with the thought that "well, if God’s grace abounds much more where sin abounds, then why don't we just sin up a storm which will allow God's grace to abound even more?"
And the answer to that is an emphatic God forbid!!! How shall we that are dead to sin live any longer therein.
Then Paul goes on to explain that we are dead to sin, that we are no longer in bondage to sin, that we are free from sin and are now servants of righteousness, we have fruit unto righteousness unto holiness and everlasting life.
Nope. Not at all.
Did you not read what I submitted concerning grace being a very powerful instructor in Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world (Titus 2:12)?
that is definitely not “promoting a license to sin”.
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In your Post #68, you stated:
I asked you in Post #120 "How do you "reprogram" that "carnal mind" that "still function as programmed?”
In other words, I am asking you how do you renew your mind (you personally … how do you renew your mind).
I know what I do … I’m interested in what it is that you do.
And please do not direct me to your link. I will not open a link to another site.
Just explain in your own words (and with Scripture if you'd like) how you renew your mind. Thanks.
"And so our sin nature is dead and gone, but it left behind a body that has a carnal mind, and therefore it will still function as programmed until we reprogram it. It's what the New Testament calls the "renewed mind" when our lives are transformed by the process of reprogramming our thoughts.”
I asked you in Post #120 "How do you "reprogram" that "carnal mind" that "still function as programmed?”
In other words, I am asking you how do you renew your mind (you personally … how do you renew your mind).
I know what I do … I’m interested in what it is that you do.
And please do not direct me to your link. I will not open a link to another site.
Just explain in your own words (and with Scripture if you'd like) how you renew your mind. Thanks.
Paul takes care of the "license to sin" issue in the first 2 verses of Rom 6 ... Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid — very emphatic NO!!!
Love is a very powerful motivator in overcoming the lusts of the flesh. Our love of the Father and our complete and utter joy in our fellowship with Him becomes the strong deterrent in not taking the bait when the lusts of the flesh are stirred up (i.e. as we endure temptation). It's not a sin to be tempted. Our Lord Jesus Christ was tempted and He overcame and He is our example. He lives within us to help us in our time of need. The temptation is not sin ... the sin occurs when lust conceives (James 1:15) and we act on our lusts.
And what some people don't understand is that grace is a very powerful instructor:
Titus 2:11-12 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Whoever came up with the idea that "grace is a license to sin" (not naming any names here but his initials are the devil, satan, the adversary), sure did toss some folks around on a wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive.
Grace is now considered by some as something never intended by God.
Love is a very powerful motivator in overcoming the lusts of the flesh. Our love of the Father and our complete and utter joy in our fellowship with Him becomes the strong deterrent in not taking the bait when the lusts of the flesh are stirred up (i.e. as we endure temptation). It's not a sin to be tempted. Our Lord Jesus Christ was tempted and He overcame and He is our example. He lives within us to help us in our time of need. The temptation is not sin ... the sin occurs when lust conceives (James 1:15) and we act on our lusts.
And what some people don't understand is that grace is a very powerful instructor:
Titus 2:11-12 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Whoever came up with the idea that "grace is a license to sin" (not naming any names here but his initials are the devil, satan, the adversary), sure did toss some folks around on a wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive.
Grace is now considered by some as something never intended by God.
It is because salvation is entirely a product of God's grace (Ephesians 2:8-9) not a product of how good or bad we are. Christians will sin according to the sinful nature of the flesh, but they won't really want to because they are born again by the Spirit and therefore aren't condemned as Paul expounds upon in Romans 7.
As you said, Paul debunks the "license to sin" doctrine in Romans. Worldly people in love with sin still will look for an excuse to sin just like they were in Paul's day. Christians don't want to be worldy and may succumb to temptations, but no longer have a mind that seeks after sin, but rather how to please God.
That we are able to even resist sinning at all for any period of time is a direct result of the influence of the Holy Spirit. Through life we will continue being sanctified, changing from one degree of glory to the next, and we will eventually cross major milestones by the grace of God and be holier.
This is why older, more mature Christians, are generally better resisting temptation than new Christians who spent their entire life following a corrupt world. It usually takes time to undo the decades of accumulated mistakes and learned mindset of sin, though sometimes a person is drastically changed quickly after being graced by the Holy Spirit.
I was responding to your comment that:
My giving up "my will" and accepting "God's will" does not cause the "new creation" within.
The "new creation" is what God places within the believer when we are born again ...
God seals us with that Holy Spirit of promise and we are then able to "give up [our] will" and "accept God's will".
From Post #122:
You need to give up your will and accept God's will
You will then become a new creation and your will
to sin stops. then you will be a new creation and
God will be in you and you in God.
My giving up "my will" and accepting "God's will" does not cause the "new creation" within.
The "new creation" is what God places within the believer when we are born again ...
God seals us with that Holy Spirit of promise and we are then able to "give up [our] will" and "accept God's will".
1And so it was with me, brothers and sisters. When I came to you, I did not come with eloquence or human wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God.[a] 2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.
God’s Wisdom Revealed by the Spirit
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written:
“What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived”[b]—
the things God has prepared for those who love him—
10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.[c] 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,
“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?”[d]
But we have the mind of Christ.
What Paul has written goes far beyond baptism.
Baptism is an initiation to to our Christian faith.
It is the beginning but the what Paul writes is living in the Spirit.
The realm of the Holy Spirit goes far beyond the flesh and in that
you are totally wrong because scripture says sin diminishes far
beyond the flesh. You people write as the Pharisees did. They
did not understand a single thing Jesus said. They were there
to pick and to argue every single word. Because they got so
irate they had to kill him. There is no point in my discussing with you.
You are totally ignorant of power of the holy Spirit Paul alluded to.
As long as all you know are words you will be woefully void of the
Spirit. You would rather argue words than to turn your soul to God.
If Jesus was here, he would blast you far more than I did. So please
just live in your ignorant bliss and leave me alone. My destination
to God's mansion is secure, I have no fear so stop trying to lower
me to your level.
God’s Wisdom Revealed by the Spirit
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written:
“What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived”[b]—
the things God has prepared for those who love him—
10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.[c] 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,
“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?”[d]
But we have the mind of Christ.
What Paul has written goes far beyond baptism.
Baptism is an initiation to to our Christian faith.
It is the beginning but the what Paul writes is living in the Spirit.
The realm of the Holy Spirit goes far beyond the flesh and in that
you are totally wrong because scripture says sin diminishes far
beyond the flesh. You people write as the Pharisees did. They
did not understand a single thing Jesus said. They were there
to pick and to argue every single word. Because they got so
irate they had to kill him. There is no point in my discussing with you.
You are totally ignorant of power of the holy Spirit Paul alluded to.
As long as all you know are words you will be woefully void of the
Spirit. You would rather argue words than to turn your soul to God.
If Jesus was here, he would blast you far more than I did. So please
just live in your ignorant bliss and leave me alone. My destination
to God's mansion is secure, I have no fear so stop trying to lower
me to your level.
