We experience a death to our old sin nature once we are baptized into Christ.
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These scriptures refer to the sins of the body, the flesh, not an ethereal nature.
The last one has to do with the mind that understands or not.
But none of it speaks of an inborn sin nature we cannot help. Augustine pulled it out of thin air as he struggled with a very sordid past. His explanation was it was a sin nature he was born with and couldn’t help instead of admitting he chose willingly every sordid act.
none of those passages mention sin.
they speak about the 'natural man' -- who lives in the flesh. they speak about the desire and corruption of the flesh.
they say that the flesh is opposed to the Spirit. its desires are opposed to the Spirit. its works are opposed to the Spirit. its thoughts are opposed to the Spirit. its very nature is opposed to the Spirit.
if you were not of the flesh when you were born you never had any reason to be born again.
that's Jesus talking, who says, that which is born of the flesh is flesh.
i really get the feeling there are an awful lot of preachers/teachers out there who are so afraid that the actual gospel will be used as license to sin, that they preach an edited and perverted gospel instead.
to me this is lack of faith. they don't believe God will actually work in a person's heart; they make it all about fear and self-will because they don't think love and the power of God are sufficient to motivate and to redeem.
they speak about the 'natural man' -- who lives in the flesh. they speak about the desire and corruption of the flesh.
they say that the flesh is opposed to the Spirit. its desires are opposed to the Spirit. its works are opposed to the Spirit. its thoughts are opposed to the Spirit. its very nature is opposed to the Spirit.
if you were not of the flesh when you were born you never had any reason to be born again.
that's Jesus talking, who says, that which is born of the flesh is flesh.
I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh
(Romans 7:18)
this isn't an excuse or an attempt to worm out of culpability. it's just the factual worldview the scriptures present. i really get the feeling there are an awful lot of preachers/teachers out there who are so afraid that the actual gospel will be used as license to sin, that they preach an edited and perverted gospel instead.
to me this is lack of faith. they don't believe God will actually work in a person's heart; they make it all about fear and self-will because they don't think love and the power of God are sufficient to motivate and to redeem.
Here is what God tells us Scripture:
Adam/Eve were created in the image and likeness of God:
Genesis 1:
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness ...
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
On Day 6, God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good (Gen 1:31). And that included Adam and Eve, who were created in the image and likeness of God.
Adam's descendants, however, were begotten in the image/likeness of Adam after Adam sinned:
Genesis 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image ...
In Gen 6:5 we are told God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Such a fall from the very good of Gen 1:31.
Each succeeding generation is begotten after the image/likeness of the generation before. I was begotten in the image/likeness of my father and mother.
When we are born again, God seals and gives us the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts (2 Cor 1:22). This earnest of the Spirit in our hearts is what allows us to live the new life in the Lord Jesus Christ. I believe the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts is referred to as the "new man".
We are instructed in Scripture to "put off the old man" (the image/likeness of our father/mother) and "put on the new man" which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness (Eph 4:24) and which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him (Col 3:10).
Just my understanding of the issue ...
Adam/Eve were created in the image and likeness of God:
Genesis 1:
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness ...
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
On Day 6, God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good (Gen 1:31). And that included Adam and Eve, who were created in the image and likeness of God.
Adam's descendants, however, were begotten in the image/likeness of Adam after Adam sinned:
Genesis 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image ...
In Gen 6:5 we are told God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Such a fall from the very good of Gen 1:31.
Each succeeding generation is begotten after the image/likeness of the generation before. I was begotten in the image/likeness of my father and mother.
When we are born again, God seals and gives us the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts (2 Cor 1:22). This earnest of the Spirit in our hearts is what allows us to live the new life in the Lord Jesus Christ. I believe the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts is referred to as the "new man".
We are instructed in Scripture to "put off the old man" (the image/likeness of our father/mother) and "put on the new man" which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness (Eph 4:24) and which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him (Col 3:10).
Just my understanding of the issue ...
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and then there are people who apparently believe they need no one to save, redeem and transform them; they think they just need to resolve to make better choices on their own, through self-determination? that basically their only problem is lack of willpower. maybe that's just what the powerless, perverted and superfluous version of the gospel naturally produces as disciples of it.
God commanded that an altar must not be built with steps. He said, if you think to go up on steps you will expose your shame.
wonder what that means, huh.
God commanded that an altar must not be built with steps. He said, if you think to go up on steps you will expose your shame.
wonder what that means, huh.
Saul was made Paul by God.
But as long as he walked on earth afterwards he was still living in Sauls body. he had to deal with that, and struggle with that, and mortify that. Saul was dead and Paul lived - but Paul's life wasn't by Saul's flesh, but God's Spirit. Paul is Christ living in Saul.
It is no accident that God changed the name of the apostle who was made the primary witness to us Gentiles.
But as long as he walked on earth afterwards he was still living in Sauls body. he had to deal with that, and struggle with that, and mortify that. Saul was dead and Paul lived - but Paul's life wasn't by Saul's flesh, but God's Spirit. Paul is Christ living in Saul.
It is no accident that God changed the name of the apostle who was made the primary witness to us Gentiles.
I am talking about the book of Romans.
Chapter 8 is the conclusion of the argument made by chapters 1-7. Chapters 1-7 form the argumentative basis of the conclusion that there is no more condemnation for those in Christ. Chapters 6 and 7 are the reason why and how it is true.
You indicated you would delete chapters 6 & 7. If you do that, the conclusion in chapter 8 is invalidated. You strip it of its foundations and it collapses.
Do you understand?
You are the one disregarding what the scriptures say, forming merely human arguments, when you think you can reach chapter 8 without passing through chapters 6 & 7.
Chapter 8 is the conclusion of the argument made by chapters 1-7. Chapters 1-7 form the argumentative basis of the conclusion that there is no more condemnation for those in Christ. Chapters 6 and 7 are the reason why and how it is true.
You indicated you would delete chapters 6 & 7. If you do that, the conclusion in chapter 8 is invalidated. You strip it of its foundations and it collapses.
Do you understand?
You are the one disregarding what the scriptures say, forming merely human arguments, when you think you can reach chapter 8 without passing through chapters 6 & 7.
Here is what God tells us Scripture:
Adam/Eve were created in the image and likeness of God:
Genesis 1:
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness ...
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
On Day 6, God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good (Gen 1:31). And that included Adam and Eve, who were created in the image and likeness of God.
Adam's descendants, however, were begotten in the image/likeness of Adam after Adam sinned:
Genesis 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image ...
In Gen 6:5 we are told God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Such a fall from the very good of Gen 1:31.
Each succeeding generation is begotten after the image/likeness of the generation before. I was begotten in the image/likeness of my father and mother.
When we are born again, God seals and gives us the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts (2 Cor 1:22). This earnest of the Spirit in our hearts is what allows us to live the new life in the Lord Jesus Christ. I believe the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts is referred to as the "new man".
We are instructed in Scripture to "put off the old man" (the image/likeness of our father/mother) and "put on the new man" which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness (Eph 4:24) and which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him (Col 3:10).
Just my understanding of the issue ...
Adam/Eve were created in the image and likeness of God:
Genesis 1:
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness ...
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
On Day 6, God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good (Gen 1:31). And that included Adam and Eve, who were created in the image and likeness of God.
Adam's descendants, however, were begotten in the image/likeness of Adam after Adam sinned:
Genesis 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image ...
In Gen 6:5 we are told God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Such a fall from the very good of Gen 1:31.
Each succeeding generation is begotten after the image/likeness of the generation before. I was begotten in the image/likeness of my father and mother.
When we are born again, God seals and gives us the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts (2 Cor 1:22). This earnest of the Spirit in our hearts is what allows us to live the new life in the Lord Jesus Christ. I believe the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts is referred to as the "new man".
We are instructed in Scripture to "put off the old man" (the image/likeness of our father/mother) and "put on the new man" which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness (Eph 4:24) and which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him (Col 3:10).
Just my understanding of the issue ...
The Spirit Is not the same as the flesh.
Paul wrote
Romans 7:20-23
king James Version
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
+++
The pharisees were purifying the outward man but they were not clean Inside (talking about their minds)
and they could not make the Inside clean In their own strength,only GOD In CHRIST could make the Inside clean
Those who believe In the WORD of GOD have been made clean and are now just before GOD In the Spirit and so when they sin In their bodies GOD Is not looking at the flesh mind but nevertheless the person will and should present their bodies a living sacrifice and Renew their minds.
Paul wrote
Romans 7:20-23
king James Version
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
+++
The pharisees were purifying the outward man but they were not clean Inside (talking about their minds)
and they could not make the Inside clean In their own strength,only GOD In CHRIST could make the Inside clean
Those who believe In the WORD of GOD have been made clean and are now just before GOD In the Spirit and so when they sin In their bodies GOD Is not looking at the flesh mind but nevertheless the person will and should present their bodies a living sacrifice and Renew their minds.
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Paul takes care of the "license to sin" issue in the first 2 verses of Rom 6 ... Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid — very emphatic NO!!!
Love is a very powerful motivator in overcoming the lusts of the flesh. Our love of the Father and our complete and utter joy in our fellowship with Him becomes the strong deterrent in not taking the bait when the lusts of the flesh are stirred up (i.e. as we endure temptation). It's not a sin to be tempted. Our Lord Jesus Christ was tempted and He overcame and He is our example. He lives within us to help us in our time of need. The temptation is not sin ... the sin occurs when lust conceives (James 1:15) and we act on our lusts.
And what some people don't understand is that grace is a very powerful instructor:
Titus 2:11-12 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Whoever came up with the idea that "grace is a license to sin" (not naming any names here but his initials are the devil, satan, the adversary), sure did toss some folks around on a wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive.
Grace is now considered by some as something never intended by God.
Love is a very powerful motivator in overcoming the lusts of the flesh. Our love of the Father and our complete and utter joy in our fellowship with Him becomes the strong deterrent in not taking the bait when the lusts of the flesh are stirred up (i.e. as we endure temptation). It's not a sin to be tempted. Our Lord Jesus Christ was tempted and He overcame and He is our example. He lives within us to help us in our time of need. The temptation is not sin ... the sin occurs when lust conceives (James 1:15) and we act on our lusts.
And what some people don't understand is that grace is a very powerful instructor:
Titus 2:11-12 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Whoever came up with the idea that "grace is a license to sin" (not naming any names here but his initials are the devil, satan, the adversary), sure did toss some folks around on a wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive.
Grace is now considered by some as something never intended by God.
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I like the op but the only issue is that yes our spirit is indeed reborn but the sin nature resides in the flesh itself not in the mind or soul. Even Paul still struggled with his flesh and he was perhaps the most respected and highly viewed servent of Christ.
Yes we are to renew our mind and to not sin but we may be born again however we are still human living in a human flesh and thus the battle of spirit vs flesh is a constant, we wage war against things of the spirit but we also wage war with our own sinful nature.
Anyone who claims to be without sin is a liar, even subconsiously we sin without even meaning to. anytime we have thoughts that contradict the spirit is sin, if you think about a person in a negative and unfair way that is a sin, if you see a person and without meaning to judge them by their appearance that is a sin, if you even see soemone on t.v. and think to yourself I hope that person dies and goes to hell for what they have done that also is a sin because it is not our job or role to condemn anyone to hell only to love and help guide them to Christ.
There is a positive point to the sinless doctrine but it also seems to be a misunderstood doctrine as well
Yes we are to renew our mind and to not sin but we may be born again however we are still human living in a human flesh and thus the battle of spirit vs flesh is a constant, we wage war against things of the spirit but we also wage war with our own sinful nature.
Anyone who claims to be without sin is a liar, even subconsiously we sin without even meaning to. anytime we have thoughts that contradict the spirit is sin, if you think about a person in a negative and unfair way that is a sin, if you see a person and without meaning to judge them by their appearance that is a sin, if you even see soemone on t.v. and think to yourself I hope that person dies and goes to hell for what they have done that also is a sin because it is not our job or role to condemn anyone to hell only to love and help guide them to Christ.
There is a positive point to the sinless doctrine but it also seems to be a misunderstood doctrine as well
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