We experience a death to our old sin nature once we are baptized into Christ.
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You cannot ignore the full context of scripture just to seemingly find support for a false doctrine.
I'm not supporting a false doctrine. I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just saying Paul admitted to sinning still, or rather it is his flesh that sins due to being agitated by the law, contrasted by walking in the Spirit whereby he is not a sinner.
L
lenna
Guest
Read on-1 John 3-He who sins, is of the devil
Not what my heavenly Father states. That is a blatantly out of context verse you have posted with regards to the subject at hand. I've read all of it, thank you and much more than once. The one who continues in sin or lives in sin is the proper understanding.
I'm not going to debate it with you because it is most often useless to to do so with people who think Christians have perfection in this life.
I would simply suggest to all to avail yourself of biblical balance and understanding.
L
lenna
Guest
Our standing before God in Christ is without sin, but as you say and Paul affirms, in the flesh we are not without sin. There is no argument but proper exegesis instead and you do not get that the very moment you are saved.
Do we? Then why do we still sin?
Isn't it beautiful that everything we do in life is based upon Yay/Nay.
Do I want to get out of bed today?
Do I want to wear this?
Do I want to eat this?
Do I want to go to work?
Do I want to put fuel into the vehicle?
Sometimes we are forced to do things we don't want to (like putting fuel into our vehicle or go to work).
And then on the flip side is morality between right and wrong.
Should I say something to offend this person? Odd how we never ask this first, but just say it and realize we just offended them.
Should I look at this beautiful woman and imagine things with her? Typically, we see her, start to think and then realize we are doing wrong.
To me, it's strange how common things like what to eat we are good at deciding before hand what to choose.
But when we sin, we sin and then realize we ignored the part where we could have chosen "no" before committing the sin.
If we could get our morality on the same pattern as basic life situations, we would be better off.
This is why there is always a "WAR" within us as Believers!
L
lenna
Guest
I believe I already gave the verse. Here I will give it again...
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Not when we are in the spirit. Thus, it is written...
Galatians 5:16
Walk in the spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
Yes ... a new creation in Christ. And Scripture tells us that until we mature to full age, we are babes in Christ. And that maturing process takes time ... we don't just go from babe to full maturity.
In this process of growing up in Christ, God works within us, removing those things which are not beneficial to us. However, at times we continue in our old habit patterns and we do not reckon ourselves dead to sin.
It is not until we are clothed upon with our house made in heaven (2 Cor 5:2) that we are free from this earthen vessel which holds God's magnificent treasure.
Here are some verses which speak of the milk of the Word whereby we grow ...
1 Corinthians 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
Hebrews 5:12-13 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
1 Peter 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby
Here are some verses which speak of our maturing ...
1 Corinthians 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect [mature, full age - not "perfect" as in sinless]: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
Ephesians 4:11-16 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man [mature, full age], unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive
Philippians 3:13-15 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect [mature, full age], be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age [same Greek word as in 1 Co 2:6, Phil 3:15], even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
James 3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man [again, mature, full age], and able also to bridle the whole body.
The point is, once we are born again, we begin as spiritual infants and we mature to adult. And as long as we live on this earth in these bodies, we will see through a glass darkly (1 Cor 13:12).
1 John 3:2 tells us Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
God, in His great benevolence, tells us we are His children now (and we are His children now), but we will not be fully conformed to the image of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ until He appears. Until then, we are maturing. And no matter how spiritually mature we are, we are susceptible to being drawn away from who we are in Christ.
Our bodies die. Because of that the body naturally serves the law of survival like the other animals.
S
Scribe
Guest
I am not sure exactly what you are trying to communicate, however I will agree that believers can live a life of victory over the things they used to do that they were in bondage to. They can be so set free that they would be as tempted to like dirt out of the corner of a public bathroom floor than to do the things they used to do. They can live is such dominion over the deeds of the flesh that they were once in bondage to that things that used to tempt them are disgusting to them today. YES!!!! When the Son sets you free you are free indeed!
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The fact that Paul says "and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh" means that "the flesh" (the old Adamic sin nature) has not been eradicated, and can influence the Christian if he or she does not walk in the Spirit.
When we give our sin to Christ to have it forgiven and forgotten, we truly are to give our sin to Him. Give up on keeping the sin, give our will to sin to Christ and have Christ renew our minds to be Christ like. We cannot say that we like to be cruel to others, it gives us a feeling of superiority we like, but Christ, please forgive this in me, as an example. God does not force His will on us, God lets us choose. If we choose to keep a sin instead of giving that sin to Christ then God lets us do that. Christ does not make us righteous against our will.
We still sin, but it is not our will to sin.
L
lenna
Guest
I am most likely more familiar with that verse and corresponding verses than are you.
IN Christ is the key. This flesh will pass away and is not without the ability to sin. Hence we are warned that the devil seeks those to devour and Jesus warned us mulitple times to take care and not be deceived.
All things are new in our Savior, but I don't know about you, when I woke up this morning? I wasn't new. A little worn around the edges I was.
How can it not be "our will to sin" if "we choose to keep a sin instead of giving that sin to Christ" and "God lets us do that"?
I would agree if you said We still sin, but it is not His will for us to sin.
That's the whole "sin" problem ... we follow our own will instead of God's Will.
This is getting silly. When He found you.. before saved and after.. hello the flesh was never touched. So we put on the NEW man which after God IS created in righteousness and true holiness. That new man can't sin. Paul said... its no longer I that do it but the sin living in me. That flesh wanted to sin the day before you were saved and wanted to sin the day after. YOU have a free choice. But the battle is still there.
I guess its which one you wish to identify with. Before you were saved.. no one was forcing you to sin. Satan can not go against your will.. God can't go against your will. So.. take your eyes off flesh.. keep it on HIM! Stop seeing SIN.. keep your eyes on HIM!
I guess its which one you wish to identify with. Before you were saved.. no one was forcing you to sin. Satan can not go against your will.. God can't go against your will. So.. take your eyes off flesh.. keep it on HIM! Stop seeing SIN.. keep your eyes on HIM!
Actually, many of us here are talking about the same concepts, but using different words.
Our spirit is the new man, and it has been reborn and it always believes the Word and wants to follow God.
Our body is the old man, it is dead, it still has the sin nature, and wants to sin.
The key is to renew our mind, and whichever side, the mind sides with, will win.
I don't think it's silly. I think this is good discussion.
One of my favorite verses is Romans 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
Putting on the Lord Jesus Christ is the only way I know of to successfully overcome the lusts of the flesh.