The Second Coming of Christ is for JUDGMENT
- Thread starter Nehemiah6
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
This passage does seem to imply a post-trib rapture, but it likely means that this gathering together is after the rapture. In other words we are gathered together twice once with the resurrected saints in heaven (raptured before the tribulation) and then again we are gathered together from heaven (already raptured) at his second coming after the tribulation so that we can come back with him which is what this is referring to.
@Truth7t7 - Streamlined version, for your eyes' sake, or for your whatever's sake 
:
[repeat post]
Consider the following, about your verse, here ^ :
--Matt24, Verse 31 says, "gather... from the four winds, from the ends [plural] of the heavens [plural] to the ends [plural] of them [plural]" - meaning, "from the extremities"... no place left out.
--this is not saying "from one end of Heaven to [as if to relocate to] the other end of Heaven"... Instead, the entire phrase simply means "from the extremities" --gathered from the extremities [plural].
--This context is "the elect" of Israel--having come to faith in/during the trib years, following "our Rapture"--being gathered to one place upon the earth--Jerusalem--from "where scattered into the nations [plural]," i.e. where they had been "sown unto the earth". This is not a Rapture context.
--another passage showing a similar thing to Matt24:31's wording is: Jer49:36 - "And upon Elam will I bring the four winds from the four quarters of the heavens [plural], and will scatter them toward all those winds; and there shall be no nation whither the outcasts of Elam shall not come." Scattered into various nations, not Heaven.
--thus showing that this "scattering" toward "all those winds"--that "the four quarters of the heavens [plural]" scattered them toward--is speaking not of "up in Heaven," but of the extremities whrere scattered ...on the earth, and into the various nations, in this context, Jer49:36. It is similar to that which we read in the Matt24:31 verse, though indeed the Mark passage uses the singular, for "heaven," but this is not untrue...
there will have been people/saints who die in the trib years--having come to faith in/during the trib years, following "our Rapture"--those at the 5th Seal, "under the altar," for example, who died in the trib yrs, who also will be "resurrected"--speaking of their "bodies"--at the end of the trib/after it... just like the OT saints will be "resurrected" after the trib per Dan12:13, etc... but these contexts are not speaking of "our Rapture" event--in the air.
--Matt24:29-31 is parallel to the following passage--at the "great" trumpet:
Isaiah 27:12-13, in a passage found in what is commonly called "the little apocalypse"--Isaiah 24-27 -
"12 In that day the LORD will thresh from the flowing Euphrates to the Wadi of Egypt, and you, O Israelites, will be gathered one by one. [Note: not "as one" like we will be!] 13 And in that day a great trumpet will sound, and those who were perishing in Assyria will come forth with those who were exiles in Egypt. And they will worship the LORD in the holy mountain at Jerusalem."
--from "where they were scattered"--or from where they've been "sown unto the earth"--same thing meant, "scattered" unto all the nations [plural]
____________
Summary: Matthew 24:29-31 is not a rapture passage, or context.
:[repeat post]
Consider the following, about your verse, here ^ :
--Matt24, Verse 31 says, "gather... from the four winds, from the ends [plural] of the heavens [plural] to the ends [plural] of them [plural]" - meaning, "from the extremities"... no place left out.
--this is not saying "from one end of Heaven to [as if to relocate to] the other end of Heaven"... Instead, the entire phrase simply means "from the extremities" --gathered from the extremities [plural].
--This context is "the elect" of Israel--having come to faith in/during the trib years, following "our Rapture"--being gathered to one place upon the earth--Jerusalem--from "where scattered into the nations [plural]," i.e. where they had been "sown unto the earth". This is not a Rapture context.
--another passage showing a similar thing to Matt24:31's wording is: Jer49:36 - "And upon Elam will I bring the four winds from the four quarters of the heavens [plural], and will scatter them toward all those winds; and there shall be no nation whither the outcasts of Elam shall not come." Scattered into various nations, not Heaven.
--thus showing that this "scattering" toward "all those winds"--that "the four quarters of the heavens [plural]" scattered them toward--is speaking not of "up in Heaven," but of the extremities whrere scattered ...on the earth, and into the various nations, in this context, Jer49:36. It is similar to that which we read in the Matt24:31 verse, though indeed the Mark passage uses the singular, for "heaven," but this is not untrue...
there will have been people/saints who die in the trib years--having come to faith in/during the trib years, following "our Rapture"--those at the 5th Seal, "under the altar," for example, who died in the trib yrs, who also will be "resurrected"--speaking of their "bodies"--at the end of the trib/after it... just like the OT saints will be "resurrected" after the trib per Dan12:13, etc... but these contexts are not speaking of "our Rapture" event--in the air.
--Matt24:29-31 is parallel to the following passage--at the "great" trumpet:
Isaiah 27:12-13, in a passage found in what is commonly called "the little apocalypse"--Isaiah 24-27 -
"12 In that day the LORD will thresh from the flowing Euphrates to the Wadi of Egypt, and you, O Israelites, will be gathered one by one. [Note: not "as one" like we will be!] 13 And in that day a great trumpet will sound, and those who were perishing in Assyria will come forth with those who were exiles in Egypt. And they will worship the LORD in the holy mountain at Jerusalem."
--from "where they were scattered"--or from where they've been "sown unto the earth"--same thing meant, "scattered" unto all the nations [plural]
____________
Summary: Matthew 24:29-31 is not a rapture passage, or context.
--see also Luke 21:24 ^ "and they shall be led away captive into all the nations"
[note for the readers... notice the usage of the word "until" in that verse; and consider the placement of v.32's "all" coming after the contents of v.24
]
[note for the readers... notice the usage of the word "until" in that verse; and consider the placement of v.32's "all" coming after the contents of v.24
]
Agreed. So how do you see this as the judgment of God, but not "Christ returning in judgment"? In your view, does the latter preclude His judgment and departure?
Christ would not literally return to earth until the Church Age was completed and the "fulness of the Gentiles" had entered into the Church (Romans 11). We are still within the Day of Grace, therefore Christ has not returned to judge the unbelieving world. And when He does return "every eye shall see Him".
I already explained to you in great detail as to why "the last day" is a period of time which stretches for OVER 1000 YEARS. But you continue to hold on to your false ideas. As I already, said you need to be a student, not a teacher.
Notice. None of this has happened. There will literally be a shaking of the heavens and the earth just before the Second Coming of Christ.
Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. (Heb 12:26)
And that answers Dino's question about the Second Coming.
CATACLYSMIC COSMIC EVENT BEFORE THE SECOND COMING
1. THE SUN SHALL BE DARKENED: "BLACK AS SACKCLOTH OF HAIR"
2. THE MOON SHALL BE DARKENED: "THE MOON SHALL TURN TO BLOOD"
3. THE STARS SHALL FALL FROM HEAVEN UPON THE EARTH
4. THE HEAVENS SHALL BE SHAKEN:"ROLLED UP AS A SCROLL"
5. THE EARTH AND THE SEAS WILL BE MOVED OUT OF THEIR PLACES
No. I have not. People deny that there will be a real, literal, visible Second Coming. But the Bible stresses the fact that it will be literal.
Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. (Zech 14:3,4)
I'm not "people", and I'm not denying anything. You added "literal" and thereby dodged my question.
Nehemiah6 and Ahwatukee, how do you explain the following scriptures and still having the rapture being pre-trib? Are there two gathering together? One gathering from earth to heaven then the tribulation then another gathering from heaven to the Lord?
Matthew 24:29-31KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Yes there are TWO gatherings, but not in the way you have concluded.
THE GATHERING UP OF THE CHURCH
The gathering up of the Church takes place BEFORE the Tribulation/Great Tribulation since the Tribulation corresponds to the reign of the Antichrist (first 3 1/2 years of Daniel's 70th week). See Rev 13. The Holy Spirit and the Church must be "taken out of the way" (restraint on Satan removed) for Revelation 13 to be fulfilled.
THE GATHERING UP OF THE BELIEVING JEWISH REMNANT
This takes place AFTER the Tribulation/Great Tribulation and AFTER the Second Coming of Christ as noted below. They are called "His elect" because they are believing Jews who will believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. [Note: All Jews will be gathered to Israel, but only one third of them will be saved (Zech 13)
Matthew 24:29-31KJV: SEQUENCE OF EVENTS EXCLUDING THE RAPTURE
THE SHAKING OF THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
THE LITERAL VISIBLE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
THE SUPERNATURAL GATHERING OF THE JEWS TO ISRAEL
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
THE FULFILLMENT OF EZEKIEL'S PROPHECY (EZEK 36:24-28)
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. [Note: this is the New Birth under the New Covenant]
27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
Even though the believing remnant is only 1/3rd of all Jews. "ALL ISRAEL" is represented within that remnant, since all twelve tribes will be settled in Greater Israel at that time (Ezekiel 48)
D
DWR
Guest
You need to understand that these people will not listen. Their minds are closed.
They believe the first resurrection will take years and years and years.
We have one poster proclaiming there's gonna be (Four) resurrections, what a Pinocchio "Fairy Tale" that is!
There's going to be "One" future resurrection of "ALL" and this takes place on the "Last Day" at the Second Coming" of Jesus Christ, in "Final Judgement"!
John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
The Resurrection Takes Place On The "Last Day"
John 6:40KJV
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Please explain why the Two Witnesses will be resurrected at the "Sixth Trumpet[events]/2nd Woe" point in time... or are you saying THAT is WHEN you will be "resurrected" also (provided you've died before that point in the chronology, mind you), along with "ALL" other saints, at that point. (Rev11:11,14<--Are you saying THIS point in the chronology is the "LAST trump"??)
Please explain, in view of your comment in the above quote. Thanks.
D
DWR
Guest
When you look at verse 11 below, the "Two Witnesses" are actually "Raised From The Dead" just as Lazarus was, no glorified body is received.
Looking at verse 13 below, in the "Same Hour" that the witnesses are raised the great earthquake takes place
Then verse 15 in the 3rd woe in the 7th Trump, that ushers in the Second Coming, Last Day resurrection, the living are caught up, and the final judgement by the Lords fire.
Revelation 11:7-15KJV
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
So, are you saying that these two are "resurrected" and then wait around for about an hour before they "ascend" (NOW with a "glorified body" v.12) and that their ASCENSION point in time is the same point in the chronology as the "7th Trumpet/3rd Woe/1st Vial" ...
and that a split second before the "7th Trumpet [/3rd Woe/1st Vial]" the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to God, so that they go up at that point with them...
and then at the LATER "6th Vial" point in time [well after the "1st Vial"], that the "6th Vial" is "poured out ... upon the great river Euphrates; and the water was dried up THAT THE WAY OF THE kings of the east might BE PREPARED" ahead of when they will actually travel that path to the destination referred to in vv.14,16 (i.e. for Armageddon).
That seems like a really wacked "chronology," truthfully! = P
The last day is a period of 1,000 years?
Your claim is a big Pinocchio "Fairy Tale"!
God's words below silences your "Error"!
As the words "CLEARLY STATE"!
"They That Are Christ At His Coming. Then Cometh The End"
There isn't a 1,000 year kingdom on earth between verse 22-23 below, who you trying to fool, "Yourself"
1 Corinthians 15:20-26KJV
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.